Paul mad! Paul smash!

[jimmer]

I think some of us who disagree with the idea that beaning a guy who flipped a bat is wrong have played plenty of competitive sports.  Maybe some have played up to and including semi-pro ball along with being involved in the game in other aspects like umpiring for 30 years and coaching, and can and still manage to believe that the person to be mad at was the guy who served up a meatball to a sub .650 OPS batter not the batter who was happy he hit a rare HR (rare for him).

 

Not believing in some of the ridiculous unwritten rules does not mean one hasn't played the game, it might just mean they think they cause unnecessary violence, like say a choking of a player or broken bones from a beaning, and that things like that seem a bit too high of a price to pay for not running like someone thinks they should or for flipping a bat.

 

And maybe the Twins anger had way more to do with getting butt hurt because they were already losing 7-1 in the 8th while battling for a WC spot when the HR happened (after a strategy backfired).  The batter just gave them a reason to release that anger.  

[Willihammer]

Again, you ignore that there were 2 outs, a 6 run deficit, the runner at second for the previous two batters (both of whom struck out), a switch hitter due up (with an earlier double off another RHP), and a pitcher effectively rehabbing on the mound.

 

Kipnis is a nice player, but you don't normally intentionally walk him in that scenario unless you think very little of the batter behind him..

Um yes, with 2 outs, a base open and a .650 batter on deck you walk Kipnis 100 time out of 100. Ramirez can only blame himself for his lousy production to this point. If he took it personally then he is really thick.

[jimmer]

 

No team has ever come back from 6 in the 9th to a win a game this year......oh wait...

Fine, and what percentage of games did a team down by 6 runs come back in the 9th this season?  How about in the last 10 years? What would you say the odds are?  I've hit a Royal Flush once in my lifetime, I wouldn't count on it happening any time soon or think it likely it would.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

No team has ever come back from 6 in the 9th to a win a game this year......oh wait...

To be fair, in the Twins comeback against Detroit, they were only down 5 in the 9th, although they ultimately scored 7 runs that inning.

[Mike Sixel]

And if he misses with the bean ball, and gives the guy a concussion, injuring his brain forever.......all over a bat flip? Wow. People are defending this.

[USAFChief]

 

Um, no.  If it did work, we'd see actual changes in behavior.  Yet it keeps happening (and will continue to happen) precisely because it doesn't work.

 

Hell, we're a year removed from a manager having his players throw at a guy for bunting against the shift in the first inning of a 5-0 game.

 

Or stealing a base in the 7th up 3-1.

 

The unwritten rules and self-policing emboldens the jerks to act like jerks, not improve decorum.

I think it does work.  Or we'd see much more. The unwritten rules PREVENT jerks from acting like jerks.  Just like in most any other endeavor.

 

However, it'll only continue to work if, when transgressions occur, corrective behavior happens.

 

To beat a dead horse...what people are missing here is, there's a difference between celebrating my own success, which nobody in MLB objects to, and celebrating your failure, which most object to.

 

 

 

 

[DocBauer]

I didn't see the play. But I think the game could use a little more exuberance, overall. There is nothing wrong with watching your HR. There is nothing wrong with flipping your bat in excitement after a big hit. And there is nothing wrong with a pitcher pumping his fist after a big strikeout, just as there is nothing wrong with a team celebrating at home plate after a win.

 

But, there IS a difference in being calculated about the process.

 

I love the game of football and a big play with a high 5 or a spike in the end zone after a score. That's emotion. That's being spontaneous. What I don't like, don't care for, is an orchestrated performance.

 

It sounds to me like what happened here is not happy, is not an outburst of emotion, but a deliberate attempt to be cocky. I don't care for that.

 

Act like you've done it before and you're going to do it again.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think it does work.  Or we'd see much more. The unwritten rules PREVENT jerks from acting like jerks.  Just like in most any other endeavor.

 

However, it'll only continue to work if, when transgressions occur, corrective behavior happens.

 

No, the unwritten rules embolden jerkish behavior.  Carlos Gomez being excited about hitting a homerun isn't causing the apocalypse.  He's having fun and adding some colorful elements to a drab game.  For that people throw at his head.  Whose the real jerk?  The guy throwing the baseball or the guy excited for accomplishing something he only does 30 times a season that helped his team?

 

If you are SO butthurt that something has to be done?  Call the other manager and have him ask his kid to be a little more respectful in his celebration.  That one to one conversation about respect for your opponent is going to go a lot further than a baseball at the brain.

 

Or a juvenile, expletive filled tirade from your dugout steps.

[Mike Sixel]

So, you are advocating physical violence because someone was a jerk? I just want to understand, that's all. Some one tell me why that is acceptable.

 

Can I now start punching people that cut in line? I was dissed, and heck, I just lost another minute of time in line. More damage was done to me there than the bat flip. Clearly, we don't accept that behavior off the field, why would we possibly accept it on the field?

[TheLeviathan]

Oh, and if bat flipping really is going to cause a baseball apocalypse....make an official rule against it.  Otherwise - who cares?

[Vanimal46]

Sounds like that's the case Mike. If someone cuts you off in traffic, by the unwritten baseball rules, you are in the right to ram that driver off the road. I mean, we're all just competitive, testosterone filled drivers at the end of the day. I really didn't like how that driver showed me up changing lanes in front of me. 

[USAFChief]

 

No, the unwritten rules embolden jerkish behavior.  Carlos Gomez being excited about hitting a homerun isn't causing the apocalypse.  He's having fun and adding some colorful elements to a drab game.  For that people throw at his head.  Whose the real jerk?  The guy throwing the baseball or the guy excited for accomplishing something he only does 30 times a season that helped his team?

 

If you are SO butthurt that something has to be done?  Call the other manager and have him ask his kid to be a little more respectful in his celebration.  That one to one conversation about respect for your opponent is going to go a lot further than a baseball at the brain.

 

Or a juvenile, expletive filled tirade from your dugout steps.

Point of order...throwing at people's heads is also against the unwritten rules.  You're arguing against the unwritten rules by citing an unwritten rule.

 

 

[jimmer]

 

I didn't see the play. But I think the game could use a little more exuberance, overall. There is nothing wrong with watching your HR. There is nothing wrong with flipping your bat in excitement after a big hit. And there is nothing wrong with a pitcher pumping his fist after a big strikeout, just as there is nothing wrong with a team celebrating at home plate after a win.

 

But, there IS a difference in being calculated about the process.

 

I love the game of football and a big play with a high 5 or a spike in the end zone after a score. That's emotion. That's being spontaneous. What I don't like, don't care for, is an orchestrated performance.

 

It sounds to me like what happened here is not happy, is not an outburst of emotion, but a deliberate attempt to be cocky. I don't care for that.

 

Act like you've done it before and you're going to do it again.

More than 2100 PAs over 5 seasons in his professional career and he has hit like 20 HR.  He's only hit 8 HR, and 30 XBH, in three MLB seasons. He hits them less than Mauer does.  Maybe being excited about it, not as big of a deal as people make it out to be.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Point of order...throwing at people's heads is also against the unwritten rules.  You're arguing against the unwritten rules by citing an unwritten rule.

 

Fine, pick your place of physical injury.  Does Carlos Gomez deserve to ice his thigh for a week because he was happy to hit a homerun to help his team?

 

Unwritten rules allow vague, ridiculous interpretations.  That's the problem.  Then idiots employ them for their own butt-hurt, vindictive actions.

[USAFChief]

 

So, you are advocating physical violence because someone was a jerk? I just want to understand, that's all. Some one tell me why that is acceptable.

Can I now start punching people that cut in line? I was dissed, and heck, I just lost another minute of time in line. More damage was done to me there than the bat flip. Clearly, we don't accept that behavior off the field, why would we possibly accept it on the field?

I think we can all understand that actions on a baseball field do not fall into the same realm as assault, which is what you would be doing if you punch someone for cutting in line.

 

Or should every NFL player, ever, be arrested and charged with assault for violently slamming another human to the ground?  Should NHL players be arrested for "propelling a deadly weapon--a hockey puck--at high speed towards another human?"

[Mike Sixel]

I think we can all understand that actions on a baseball field do not fall into the same realm as assault, which is what you would be doing if you punch someone for cutting in line.

 

Or should every NFL player, ever, be arrested and charged with assault for violently slamming another human to the ground?  Should NHL players be arrested for "propelling a deadly weapon--a hockey puck--at high speed towards another human?"

Well, those happen as a natural consequence of the game. If an NFL player hits another player with his helmet, he is ejected, fined, and suspended......it is not acceptable.

 

Your examples have 100% NOTHING to do with retaliating if someone disses you.

[jimmer]

If a pitcher hit a batter, the penalty for that according to the rulebook, is the runner gets first base (as long as he didn't swing at it and didn't actually let himself get hit). 

 

If a pitch balks, the runners on base move up one base.

 

These are written rules.

 

If a pitcher throws at a batters head, warnings very often happen and if it continues the umpire often tosses the pitcher and the manager too.  There are real consequences handed out by officials on the field and often off the field.

 

If a batter flips a bat after a HR the penalty for the batter, according to the rulebook, is? 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Um yes, with 2 outs, a base open and a .650 batter on deck you walk Kipnis 100 time out of 100. Ramirez can only blame himself for his lousy production to this point. If he took it personally then he is really thick.

Huh, you'd think Kipnis would have more than 6 IBB's this year if that was the case.

 

Fortunately, since it has been so infrequent, it's easy to review those occurrences.

 

All 5 previous times Kipnis was intentionally walked in 2015, a runner had just reached second base immediately prior to Kipnis's plate appearance (actually twice on wild pitches during Kipnis's at-bat).  Four of those times, the run differential was 2 or less at the time of the intentional walk.

 

The Indians starting lineup has featured Ramirez batting behind Kipnis 14 times season, and another 10 times with Aviles (.600 OPS) behind Kipnis, but not once had Kipnis been intentionally walked to bring up either Ramirez or Aviles.  Twice each Santana and Lindor, and once Yan Gomes.

 

I think you're over-rating the number of "automatic" intentional walks without a pitcher due up.

[Winston Smith]

 

Oh, and if bat flipping really is going to cause a baseball apocalypse....make an official rule against it.  Otherwise - who cares?

What would Torii do? He flips his bat every time he hits the ball.

[Tcrose3636]

8th inning, Twins down by 6...intentional walk Kipnis to get to him...Flip that bat to the moon and do a few cartwheels. There is no reason to intentionally walk someone down that much in the 8th inning with 2 outs already, I don't care how many short throws and force outs you want to talk about. Molitor was trying to get to cute with in-game strategy and trying to get to a weak hitter...that hitter burned you. Isn't intentionally walking a batter when down by that much an unwritten rule as well....kind of like stealing bases when you are up or down by a lot.

 

These unwritten rules need to go away....

[Willihammer]

 

Huh, you'd think Kipnis would have more than 6 IBB's this year if that was the case.

 

Fortunately, since it has been so infrequent, it's easy to review those occurrences.

 

All 5 previous times Kipnis was intentionally walked in 2015, a runner had just reached second base immediately prior to Kipnis's plate appearance (actually twice on wild pitches during Kipnis's at-bat).  Four of those times, the run differential was 2 or less at the time of the intentional walk.

 

The Indians starting lineup has featured Ramirez batting behind Kipnis 14 times season, and another 10 times with Aviles (.600 OPS) behind Kipnis, but not once had Kipnis been intentionally walked to bring up either Ramirez or Aviles.  Twice each Santana and Lindor, and once Yan Gomes.

 

I think you're over-rating the number of "automatic" intentional walks without a pitcher due up.

Fine, it was a terrible play by Molitor. It was not a personal one any way you slice it.

[twinsnorth49]

8 pages on a guy getting told to **** off......talk about conflict resolution skills.

[TheLeviathan]

 

8 pages on a guy getting told to **** off......talk about conflict resolution skills.

 

I think a lot of good would be done for the sport if we could convince those involved and those defending to drop the ridiculous notion of unwritten rules.  It would do so much good for the game.

 

So 8 pages to try and convince a few more people to join the side of sanity seems well worth it to me.

[jimmer]

 

MLB is still very much a sport of unwritten rules.  Young players like Jose Ramirez are expected to show a level of decorum:  i.e.  you don't flip your bat after hitting a home run or leisurely jog around the bases. Torii Hunter has earned the right to do the bat flip because of the long, successful career.  Oh, he'd leisurely jog around the bases, probably get a highly anticipated brush-back pitch the next time up, and he'd politely tip his hat to the pitcher, out of respect.

 

I think people are making way too much out of this.

Okay, wait a minute, it's either disrespectful or it's not.  How could it be disrespectful for young guys to do it and not disrespectful for veterans to do it?  Isn't it, supposedly, about the act itself?  Veterans have earned the right but not you young whippersnappers. So, basically, just like grade school.

 

And there is no way Hunter (or any Veteran) doesn't get POd about getting hit. He , and most veterans, certainly aren't tipping their hats to the pitcher (especially a young whippersnapper) for doing it (nor should they) and they very likely wouldn't have thought they did anything to warrant retaliation to begin with since, as you said veterans have earned the right and like many veterans, Hunter included, have said they teach the young players how to play 'the right way'.

[twinsnorth49]

 

I think a lot of good would be done for the sport if we could convince those involved and those defending to drop the ridiculous notion of unwritten rules.  It would do so much good for the game.

 

So 8 pages to try and convince a few more people to join the side of sanity seems well worth it to me.

I agree, I'm just having fun, but you have to admit, it's all much ado about nothing at the moment.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Fine, it was a terrible play by Molitor. It was not a personal one any way you slice it.

As you pointed out, the Twins clearly walked Kipnis because Ramirez is a much worse hitter.  I don't necessarily think it was stupid, but the context made it abundantly clear that the Twins had a low estimation of Ramirez's abilities.  That's not "personal" in a personality sense, but I think it's pretty common for professional athletes to feel slighted by that kind of obvious negative judgement.

 

And when that player immediately hits a home run, suggesting the Twins judgement was wrong, you can't really be surprised if he wants to rub it our face.  I don't really like Ramirez's display there, but it's a little too common among pro athletes for me to label him as "stupid", and there's no honest way for his fellow pro athletes on the Twins to claim surprise at it as a high-road justification for their own boorish display (which hopefully ends there).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I agree, I'm just having fun, but you have to admit, it's all much ado about nothing at the moment.

Relative to all discussions about sports, I'm not sure if this one seems particularly trivial.

[DaveW]

The Twins should just have whoever hits the first home run for them pimp the living hell out of it. Then the teams are even. 100 bonus points if it's Hunter and he somersaults/dances around the bases, THAT would be classic.

I sorta get the whole "you hit my guy, now I will hit your guy" stuff that goes on (I don't agree with it at all) but at least in those cases a team responding with "violence" is responding to an original "violent act" (I don't have an issue with Hockey fights)

 

But to use violence to "Fix" a guy pimping a home run? Just ridiculous, it's not like Ramirez threw his bat at the bench or punched someone while running the bases.

[Dr. Evil]

Ok, how about this one.....next time the guy comes up to bat the entire team cups their hand under their arm pit and simultaneously does that chicken wing thing where a fart like noise is produced by their arm pits? Meanwhile, Molitor and Suzuki are standing at opposite ends of the bench like book ends, both bent over mooning him!!!!

[SwainZag]

This spun out of control lol.  Unwritten rules are there for every sport.  They aren't going away.  If in an NBA game a team is up 30 with 2 minutes left and they are still pressing and throwing up 3 pointers with their starters in, things are going to get testy.  You see it in the NFL when a starting QB is still throwing in the 4th quarter when the team is up 4 touchdowns.  Ultra competitive people don't like being shown up when they are already clearly beaten.  

 

Brushing a guy back once or twice next time he gets up is a lot different than throwing at a player's head.  Anyone who thinks throwing at a player's head in any sort of retaliation is wrong and seen by everyone as an unwritten rule itself.