Can we put down the pitchforks?

[spinowner]

 

Oh yeah, and the Yankees suck.

So, how would you feel if the Twins and Yankees made a trade: 25-man active roster for 25-man active roster:

 

https://vimeo.com/47283296

[James]

 

Personally I would have liked to see the Twins either a) make a serious effort to make this team a playoff team, or b ) sell off as much as they could to reload.

I don't understand the Jepsen trade at all. If they really thought they had a shot this year, it didn't take a great scouting mind to tell that it wasn't going to be enough. And if they knew the 2015 team was a May mirage, then it doesn't make sense to trade even mid-level prospects for a veteran reliever. They could have waited until free agency and gotten two or three Jepsens without trading anything.

In summation, my issue was that the Twins couldn't decide one way or another.

The problem with the whole idea of "making a serious effort to make this a playoff team" idea is that we, as fans, do not get to hear about all the trades that didn't go through.  We assume that just because Jepsen was the only trade that happened, that this was the only one that TR was discussing.  I find that part hard to believe.  

 

So, you really can't say that TR didn't try to make the team better because we don't know.  The fact that more didn't happen just means that TR or the other GM didn't find the right combination of players that they felt was appropriate (perceived) value for both teams.  

[rghrbek]

I don't comment as much as others, but I still read comments.   I read the comments mostly because I can get some really good data, and thought provoking ideas.   Humor as well.   Often times I agree with many of the posters.   Often times I don't.  

 

If a section starts to go in a direction that annoys me, then I have the choice to not read it anymore.

 

I do however, get a bit uncomfortable when people get "preachy" on what I should or should not say, as it pertains to the twins FO, management, or players.

 

Obviously I understand we don't wanna get personal and wish ill onto anyone.   This includes posters.   In that same vein, if I want to vent, rationally, in this case that TR should be let go, it should be my right as a member of Twins Daily, and a frequent reader, to do so and I guess often...

 

The Twins have the worst record in the American League since June 1st.  It's been a roller coaster ride.   I imagine the posts probably reflect this.   I am glad that I have this forum to learn, read and also contribute my thoughts. 

[Blackjack]

 

Forums are built, and some of the articles today encourage, debate and negative discussion about the front office, players, manager, etc. Some of it is deserved. Some of it is a bit much. 

 

I just don't like when it's day after day and forum after forum of saying the same things. That's what gets old.

Part of the problem is the nature of the articles, even by the owners, I read them and think 'this is like throwing red meat to the lions', the article is going to incite a lot of negative comments.

 

I do agree though the negative comments day after day get old. Then its time to: 1) ignore some of the obvious negative commentors 2) go elsewhere on the net

[mickeymental]

 

Twins fans here on TD were proposing this? Do you have a link?

well, that link might really exist somewhere, but mine is a hypothetical. substitute kepler or walker or even sano. yes, the bullpen needed fixing beyond jepsen. and the twins are weak at ss and c. but fixes can backfire -- just look at oakland at last year's deadline. billy beane was brilliant until he wasn't. fantasy-league trades are easy to make and i guess that's part of the fun. but nobody -- not terry ryan, not you and not me -- knows what will happen once the trigger is pulled. and maybe the trade NOT made will lead to the promised land in 2016 or 2017 or 2018. or never. and that's part of the fun, too.

 

[James]

I wonder if people would be this disgruntled right now if the Twins had been consistently playing at their current winning percentage, rather than the big swings we've seen.

 

As of today, the Twins have a winning percentage of .496, which would be good for 80-81 wins over the whole season.  If they had been consistently playing at this clip, would there be so much animosity towards the FO right now, or would people be happier because they were on pace to win 10-11 more games this season?

[LimestoneBaggy]

 

So, how would you feel if the Twins and Yankees made a trade: 25-man active roster for 25-man active roster:

 

https://vimeo.com/47283296

I threw up a little in my mouth 

[LimestoneBaggy]

 

1. This post is spot-on.

 

2. I hope your kid isn't a Vikings fan.

 

He is. He has a Percy Harvin Jersey.....Maybe I should be a better parent

 

[nicksaviking]

 

I would like to see everyone who hates Terry Ryan and the front office try to take on the job. Any of you seriously think you could do a better job? I doubt it.

 

I'm not sure why it should be assumed that anyone who wants a new GM hates Ryan.  I also don't believe that people who want to see Mauer replaced hate Mauer.  Subjectivity needs to be removed from most business decision, heck personal ones too.  If your favorite band is Judas Priest it's OK for you to still acknowledge that the Beatles are the most important band ever.

 

 

[zenser]

I understand where the critisism is coming from but i do think that some of the forums on here are a little outragous.  A couple weeks ago at the deadline there were two forums that caught my eye.  One was regarding the possible Tulo trade and the other was a possible trade with SD involving Shields.  Then today, I see one about having too many bad contracts.  Could you imagine if they added those two contracts and dumped more prospects to aquire those players?  Do I hope and expect to see upgrades at SS, C, and bullpen this offseason?  Yes, I most certainly do.  Do I think TR, the rest of the FO, and Molitor know these are weaknesses that need to be addressed?  Yes, I think they do.  Lets be honest with ourselves.  The rebuild is happening and it does take time.  Look at KC.  Gordan struggled when he came up, Moustakas struggled, Hosmer struggled.  During all of that, they really only traded away prospects once and that was Myers to get Shields.  They did when the time was right.  I think we are a year away, if not two, from being in that position but we can be competative too.  Don't forget, KC also traded away Greinke in the 2011 season, the same season Moustakas and Hosmer debuted.

 

Now, looking at the Twins prospects, I think (and most do too) we have 3 very high level talents in Buxton, Sano, and Barrios.  I think these three should be part of the core that will hopefully produce for us in the future.  The next tier of prospects/young mlb players (Kepler, Gibson, May, Meyer, Rosario, D Santana, Polonco, Hicks, Arcia) might be part of the core or might be dangled when the time is right to get a position of need. 

 

I agree with the topic.  Put the pitchforks down and look at the big picture.  Buxton, Sano, Rosario, and Meyer all debuted this year.  Obviously, we would have liked Buxton and Meyers time at the big league level to be more productive.  Sano has impressed.  Rosario has held his own.  Hicks looks the part now.  May looks to be a nice pitcher (hopefully in the future rotation).  Gibson has had some success.  We hope Arcia comes around.  We might still see Barrios in Sept and maybe Kepler.  A lot of young players have had some success at the highest level and should continue that in years to come.  I am suprised it has already started to happen and that leaves me excited for the future.

[Eephus]

Today's genius can be tomorrow's scapegoat pretty swiftly (Dombrowski, Cherington, for example). That's mainly why I'm hesitant to call for someone's head. I mean what the hell do I know? Give me a $350 million payroll and I'd like to think I could come up with a team with a winning record just by casually picking free agents. But, a lot of smart people get things wrong or have bad luck. There are so many variables in the decisions being made. 

 

It's cool that fans here take these variables very seriously, but calling for people to be fired often comes across as knee-jerk commentary to me. Gibson, Perkins and Hunter were great for us 2 months ago. Now they have among the worst post All-Star performances of primary Twins players. Is that Molitor's or Ryan's or Bruno's or Allen's fault? It might be, but I kind of doubt it. Shane Robinson has the team's 2nd highest post all-star game OPS? How many armchair GMs were calling for more time for Robinson 2 months ago? 

 

I like the banter, but the calls for firing people I don't pay too much attention to.

[jimmer]

 

Terry Ryan deserves some credit in getting the team back to respectability.  The future is bright.  I think it's fair, given his history, to question whether he is best to lead toward championship.  It's not really fair to look at his biggest mistakes, and not credit him for things like the Dozier and Perkins signing, finding Boyer and Hunter for half the year, perhaps the patience with Hicks, etc.

Dozier was drafted during Smith's time as GM and Ryan signed him through the time frame we had him anyway. There were no free agent year bought out.

 

As far as finding Hunter?  How hard was that? He went and overpaid for a former Twins star who would fill seats. Hunter's been predictably poor on defense and on offense he's batting .235/.288/.413. 18th out of 19 qualified players in OPS at the RF spot.  So, basically, one of the worst starting RF in the game today.

 

And Boyer, only one relief pitcher has allowed a higher % of inherited runners to score and no one on the team has allowed more actual inherited runners to score.  

 

I know you mentioned Hunter and Boyer only for the first half, but they still play for us and their whole body of work for this season counts when evaluating a signing.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Part of the problem is the nature of the articles, even by the owners, I read them and think 'this is like throwing red meat to the lions', the article is going to incite a lot of negative comments.

 

I do agree though the negative comments day after day get old. Then its time to: 1) ignore some of the obvious negative commentors 2) go elsewhere on the net

 

I have no problem with "negative" article. I think that both John's and Nick's articles were factual and well written and most important, they were fair. I don't have any problem with that. I don't think that the Twins front office would have any problem with that. And, we know that they do often read this site. 

 

Like I said, my issue is taking it to the next step, calling for everyone to be fired, not getting past certain things, maybe not understanding the big picture, and obviously there have been several personal attacks that are just unfair.

 

This Yankees jinx or the struggles against them are one of those triggers. It's happened every year. Even though the Twins have maybe played better than the should have or exceeded the expectations of many, losing to the Yankees brings out the worst in people, myself included. I put some things on Twitter last night that I'm not proud of. It's frustrating, and I feel bad about it... But after a couple of tweets, I catch myself and (try to) calm down.

[David HK]

No.  I am not puttin' down my pitchfork.  Unless I lose my grip on my slurpee for a second, but then I'm pickin' it right back up.

 

And I'm not using it to get TR or Molly's job, I just wanna poke 'em both in the arse a bunch of times until they start doing those jobs better.

[jimmer]

 

I would like to see everyone who hates Terry Ryan and the front office try to take on the job. Any of you seriously think you could do a better job? I doubt it.

This is a ridiculous post for many reasons.

 

First, I don't think anyone actually hates Terry Ryan or anyone in the FO, they just question Ryan's ability to do the job.  And since Ryan questioned his own abilities to perform his duties in today's game in his statement when he stepped down the first time, it's not unreasonable for people to question him now 8 years later, especially when we see his continuous inaction at trade deadlines, his very questionable FA signings year in and year out, his personnel moves and/or lack thereof, etc.

 

Second, GMs get compared to GMs, just like pitchers get compared to pitchers, shortstops get compared to shortstops, and people of all jobs get compared to others that similar do similar jobs.  To defend them by saying they can do better than an average fan? Like I said.  Ridiculous.  

[jimmer]

 

what if terry ryan had made the big deadline trade: berrios and buxton for tulo and latroy. and what if tulo had his same results: 6-for-15 with 3 xbh in three games (hr and 2 doubles in game one), 9-for-50 with 3 xbh ever since. for the first week ryan coulda run for mayor but by now he'd be run outa town -- especially if either ex-twin was doing well. so maybe tulo ends up the 2015 world series mvp or maybe he'll never be great again. should the twins have made the trade? does anybody REALLY know?

It wouldn't have cost anywhere near that to get Tulo, so it's a moot point.  

[dxpavelka]

 

That's a fair perspective. But doing nothing at the deadline, again, doing nothing now. It's just really hard to take and it's time. I don't think anyone is trying to negate his many accomplishments, but we just can't move forward with him in charge. It's just time.

What would YOU do or have done?  Be specific.  Name names.  Tell us how you would have made the moves you criticize Ryan for not making.  Would the teams on the other end have made the moves you propose?  It's easy to say something should be done.  Tougher to actually do it.

[FattCrapps]

 

Terry Ryan deserves some credit in getting the team back to respectability.  The future is bright.  I think it's fair, given his history, to question whether he is best to lead toward championship.  It's not really fair to look at his biggest mistakes, and not credit him for things like the Dozier and Perkins signing, finding Boyer and Hunter for half the year, perhaps the patience with Hicks, etc.

 

Edit: Jimmer already said what I said.

[jimmer]

 

What would YOU do or have done?  Be specific.  Name names.  Tell us how you would have made the moves you criticize Ryan for not making.  Would the teams on the other end have made the moves you propose?  It's easy to say something should be done.  Tougher to actually do it.

Your appeal to authority is amazing.  Everyone here knows it's a hard job, yet somehow trades happen all the time at the deadline.  Is it not equally hard for every GM in the business?

 

This year quality talent flew all around at the deadline.  Ryan has been a GM for a very long time and has never made a big splash at the deadline. Ever.  Not once.  Well, unless you want to count him bailing on the team by trading away Castillo in the middle of a playoff run which ticked off the players and sent us into a tailspin.  It's either not in his nature, and he should step down, or there a ton of other GMs who manage to do this tough job of making trades to help their ballclub at the deadline while he can't/won't, and he should step down. 

 

 

[twinssouth]

So is it negative for me to say that when the Twins start marching out the bullpen, I take a Valium, washed down with a Scotch on the rocks

[Rosterman]

Will the Twins change ways?

 

Doubtful, actually...No.

 

The organization has followed carefully defined paths. The Griffith-era, we knew what to expect. The development was often better than good, and sometimes he pulled a player out of the dregs and they shined.

 

When we entered the Pohlad era, most of the talk centered around money. Who was getting paid, how was it being spent, what the Twins should spend (could they). The team is totally driven by spending x-amount of dollars on the field. If they spend it wrongly, we complain. If they don't spend it, we wonder who is getting rich.

 

But it is the philosophy we often disagree with. Do we go the all-in, go-for-it, today's the day and constantly rebuild (Marlins example). We could be the Oakland A's, who also seem to stay competitive, but every year the slogan is - the New Kids in town.

 

The Twins have thrived when groups of players come together at the same time. It happened in the sixties and early seventies. Happened at the end of the 80s. Again this century. Our biggest stumbling block seems to be the continued evaluation of hometown talent. We put too much stock in our prospects (good or bad), and we don't overpay our own free agents, but will go dumpster diving and overpay (usually on a lesser scale) mid-level, competent players.

 

That will not change. The Twins will not bring in a general manager ever from outside the organization, that I truly believe. They run the shop like a family-run business. They try to play nice with their own free agents, but if you were a player, would you seek riches elsewhere if offered, or stay here.

 

Players are developed. Some thrive, some have setbacks. Not many get the lease Aaron Hicks was given and look what he did this year. Will he be better next year (and where will he play). The evils of prospects is that someone is always knocking on the door. You get your chance, you get another chance, or you blow it.

 

Nothing will change. We do all complain and moan about in-action. But the bigger question is: how do we get free agents to sign with this team. Top flight free agents will always get more from someone else. Mid-level guys may be able to garner that extra million or so or a year with the Twins. The Twins are always interested in a deal.

 

Be a general manager is hard. You look at what you have on the field and how you can improve it. You follow the system, you look at every stat available. You try to prediict who kmght help you when.

 

Yes I get tired of the talk of trades. Most posters always throw out names that we'd love to see move elsewhere. But how do other teams look at the Twins. Are they lining up to grab players left-and-right (no), becuase there isn't that many guys you truly want. The Twins do have some players in the minors that can, and should, be dealt. Like the Astros, we might suddenly have too many riches but not enough 40-man roster spots, or some will be pushing minor league free agency. 

 

It is tough being the general manager of a baseball team. What do you do with that 41st player. How do you choose what shortstops to keep on the roster, in the system, or do you forget about ALL of them and sign some old guy for 3-4-5 years. 

 

I might like to see the organization shaken up. Bring in a new President. Grab a solid General Manager and overpay him to turn-things-around or turn-things-upside down. Would he succeed, or still fall into the stay competitive philsophy that ALL teams want to do, and the Twins have done more often than not.

 

But that is not going to happen. If Ryan leaves, someone internally will get the title. Someone else will be groomed. The team will keep figuring out ways to appeal to the common fan, to keep butts in the seats. They will do it economically. Remember, they have been going downhill revenue-wise the past few seasons, but winning NOW has put many dollars in the coffers that they weren't expecting, but after this road trip, it could be a dismal September with the State Fair and back-to-school.

 

They will moan and groan that they tried. Like that little engine from children's books. Think they can (as all teams do) think they can. It takes one Big pitcher and one Big hitter to sometimes make that train go over the hump...but, again, every other team is striving to do that, too, to get one of those hallowed few playoff spaces and be the one team that goes all the way.

 

We are what we are. We have the chance to build a team that will have a nice run, and then watch as the players move elsewhere. We win, we get lesser draft picks. We lose, we keep building the system. Maybe we can sign a free agent that can be flipped for soemthing worthwhile rather than a bag of balls or a retirement party. 

 

We complain. We talk. We blog. Hey, we could've been the Kansas City Royals. Or the Pittsburgh Pirates. Would we rather be the Colorado Rockies right now. How about those Tigers and Indians and White Sox. We have to build to fight those guys because they will be better in a year or two, too.

 

Twins Daily. Like doing Twitter or being active on Facebook, we all feel soemthing has to be posted or said everyday to give the forum (and probably us) a life. It's the new realm of social media. Like the MInnesota Twins and their organizational philosophy we are here to stay and little will change.

 

 

[Ultima Ratio]

The pitchforks can only be set aside once they are red with the blood of our enemies, and we've counted coup.

[Craig Arko]

 

The pitchforks can only be set aside once they are red with the blood of our enemies, and we've counted coup.

And who do you think are your enemies?

[Blackjack]

 

Your appeal to authority is amazing.  Everyone here knows it's a hard job, yet somehow trades happen all the time at the deadline.  Is it not equally hard for every GM in the business?

 

This year quality talent flew all around at the deadline.  Ryan has been a GM for a very long time and has never made a big splash at the deadline. Ever.  Not once.  Well, unless you want to count him bailing on the team by trading away Castillo in the middle of a playoff run which ticked off the players and sent us into a tailspin.  It's either not in his nature, and he should step down, or there a ton of other GMs who manage to do this tough job of making trades to help their ballclub at the deadline and he should step down. 

We don't know what they did were trying to do or what kind of offers they made or were getting at the deadline. Its almost like here on TD they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, if they give up to much they get vilified, if they don't do anything they get vilified. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

What would YOU do or have done?  Be specific.  Name names.  Tell us how you would have made the moves you criticize Ryan for not making.  Would the teams on the other end have made the moves you propose?  It's easy to say something should be done.  Tougher to actually do it.

Not a fair question.

 

And anyway, I would have passed on the Santana and Pelfrey signings this offseason. Boom: $50 million freed up to apply to an actual #1 or 2 guy this offseason.

 

Like other posters are saying, sometimes it's the moves you don't make.

 

Extending Suzuki at the trade deadline last July. Everyone on TD groaned when that happened, so it's hard to play the authority card on that one.

 

Additionally, giving Danny Santana too much rope this season. The GM should have optioned him around mid to late May to keep Molitor from continually playing him where he was over his head.

 

I give Ryan credit for bringing Hunter on, but you can't milk that one small victory forever. And no way should Hunter be signed for next season unless the press release includes the words "bench" or "limited playing time" or "DH only."

[Ultima Ratio]

 

And who do you think are your enemies?

 

They

[Craig Arko]

 

They

That was more helpful than you think.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We don't know what they did were trying to do or what kind of offers they made or were getting at the deadline. Its almost like here on TD they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, if they give up to much they get vilified, if they don't do anything they get vilified.

 

again, no, they are vilified when they lose. Not when they do or don't do something.

 

There are lots of things to be optimistic about. And I mean A LOT. We all hope the Twins and Ryan can take advantage and make the best of the talent they have emerging. It's not a bad thing to have high expectations!

[jimmer]

 

We don't know what they did were trying to do or what kind of offers they made or were getting at the deadline. Its almost like here on TD they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, if they give up to much they get vilified, if they don't do anything they get vilified. 

Sorry, but in order for us to know for sure that what you are saying in bold is true, Ryan would actually have to do something somewhat bold at a trade deadline.  Since he has NEVER done that, and likely never will, it's pure speculation.

[TheLeviathan]

I think there have been a number of inexcusable roster decisions.  They also neglected to add any talent to the bullpen coming into the season - whether that was misjudging their internal options or not pursuing external ones sufficiently is really irrelevant.  The end result is they didn't prepare well at all for one of the most glaring weaknesses on the team.  (And we've seen this before.  I'm looking at you CF)

 

But even if you don't want to lay blame at Ryan's feet for any one particular choice, how long does one man deserve the role of GM?  When is it just time to move on?  For some of you the answer would appear to be indefinite.

 

I'm not sure that's a productive way to look at any leader, especially one that is very conservative and non-innovative (old school if you prefer).