Colabello > Mauer

[Joe A. Preusser]

 

A first base man who hits like Doug Mientkiewicz, who the Twins thought wasn't producing enough.

 

A guy who can't catch, the position that he was best suited for, but he can't catch.

 

Not the third baseman we need. Not the outfielder that could be. Not the best choice for designated hitter.

 

Maybe he needs to shave that beard. That's it. The beard is slowing down his swing!

 

Wind resistance is a bitch!

[Joe A. Preusser]

 

 

this is the guy...the guy.....man....can't even finish.

 

 

That's what she said...

[Joe A. Preusser]

 

Still waiting for our local media to ask the tough questions about Mauer's beard.  It was first reported that he grew it for April warmth, then the Wild playoff run.  If he has any kind of baseball superstition, the beard should be long gone, and the sideburns should be back.

 

 

Also, if Mauer's two young daughters are anything like mine, they will regularly order him to shave.

 

 

 

No orders from mine, just requests to watch.

[Joe A. Preusser]

 

Retaining or adding elite talents is going to require cash.  If you're going to run away from a price-tag every time it gets high, you're going to run away from elite talent.  

 

Also, let's not pretend that the Twins don't have their own cap.

 

I have a Twins cap.  I got it from Walmart.  It is discolored and reeks of sweat after 2 weeks.

[USAFChief]

I have a Twins cap.  I got it from Walmart.  It is discolored and reeks of sweat after 2 weeks.

Not the right time to trade it on a new, better one.

 

Wait till all the rest of your clothes are better.

[Joe A. Preusser]

 

Not the right time to trade it on a new, better one.

Wait till all the rest of your clothes are better.

That's unlikely to happen.  My fashion sense is on par with Menard G. Crebbs.

[SwainZag]

 

Hunter will be resigned... its just a matter of time

 

I just can't see it.  Torii has been almost downright awful with the bat.

 

Since the break: 57 AB, .193/.230/.351.  3 HR, 8 RBI, 2BB to 14K.  Maybe I'm in denial, but there's no way they bring him back unless it's in a non-playing position.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

I just can't see it.  Torii has been almost downright awful with the bat.

 

Since the break: 57 AB, .193/.230/.351.  3 HR, 8 RBI, 2BB to 14K.  Maybe I'm in denial, but there's no way they bring him back unless it's in a non-playing position.

three words...

 

Leadership....Dance...Parties

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think there's virtually no chance Hunter returns next season.

[nicksaviking]

I didn't have a problem DFA'ing Colabello as I wanted to make sure Arcia had plenty of playing time.

[Minniman]

 

Retaining or adding elite talents is going to require cash.  If you're going to run away from a price-tag every time it gets high, you're going to run away from elite talent.  

 

Also, let's not pretend that the Twins don't have their own cap.

 

I agree, a price must be paid, but in both cases the local team overpaid for local players that would rather have played at home. Instead of the hometown discount, both teams overpaid big time.

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I agree, a price must be paid, but in both cases the local team overpaid for local players that would rather have played at home. Instead of the hometown discount, both teams overpaid big time.

 

They paid market price, which is what it would take to get/retain them.

[Minniman]

 

They paid market price, which is what it would take to get/retain them.

 

I disagree.

 

The Twins jumped the gun and locked in Mauer a year early. Then they paid the high free agent market price for him. It was a mistake, and that contract should not have been offered.

 

The Wild picked up Parise and Suter right before the contracts they signed would no longer be allowed in the NHL. The maximum now is eight years. They did this while having another anchor contract, from Koivu, on the books already.

 

[Rosterman]

 

I don't know any bloggers who wanted him run out of town.

 

For me, I thought it was a big mistake to DFA him. He just makes sense in Toronto. I think the injury was a huge factor in his struggles after April 22nd. 

Quite frankly, it was one of those cases where the Twins didn't see anyone claiming him and adding him to the 40-man. In which case, they would've lept him. Kinda like no one wanted Neshek, or Hendriks, or even Florimon.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I disagree.

 

The Twins jumped the gun and locked in Mauer a year early. Then they paid the high free agent market price for him. It was a mistake, and that contract should not have been offered.

 

The Wild picked up Parise and Suter right before the contracts they signed would no longer be allowed in the NHL. The maximum now is eight years. They did this while having another anchor contract, from Koivu, on the books already.

 

They essentially only had them under contract at max prices for 8 years anyway, so that's a non-issue.

 

If you think Mauer was going to get even a penny less than that on the open market you have not been paying attention to MLB free agency for a long, long time now.

[Brock Beauchamp]

They essentially only had them under contract at max prices for 8 years anyway, so that's a non-issue.

 

If you think Mauer was going to get even a penny less than that on the open market you have not been paying attention to MLB free agency for a long, long time now.

Yep. If Mauer hits FA in 2010, Epstein doesn't blink twice before tossing down an 8 year, $200m offer. Not even a moment's hesitation.

 

And Cashman gave Ellsbury $155-freakin-million.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury. I mean, come on.

[Minniman]

 

They essentially only had them under contract at max prices for 8 years anyway, so that's a non-issue.

 

The cap hit is the same for all 13 seasons unless they buyout at the end and take a beating. That is over $15 million in cap space for 13 seasons.

 

 

If Mauer hits FA in 2010, Epstein doesn't blink twice before tossing down an 8 year, $200m offer. Not even a moment's hesitation.

 

 

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55235266.jpg

 

 

[Minniman]

The Parise/Suter contracts are the fourth largest total contracts in the NHL and 15th highest by season average. Are either Parise or Suter the fourth best player in the NHL? Suter wasn't even the fourth best defenseman on the team this last season.

 

Mauer has the 11th largest total contract and the 20th per season. Is he close to being the 11th best player? How about the 20th? Is he even the 11th best first baseman? He is paid like the fourth best.

 

Colabello is no all star, but he is outplaying Joe Mauer this season. Which player will be next?

[TheLeviathan]

That's just the price to add or retain elite talent.

 

So I have to conclude that you never want to see that happen. 6 years of Sano and see ya, right?

[DaveW]

Signing Parise and Suter in turn also helped them sigh other talent later on.

 

You always have to "pay" for talent in free agency, it's the nature of the biz, before this season it looked like the Pujols contract was a disaster, but he is a great hitter and turned it around, just like aRod, hopefully Joe can do that in 2016.

[Minniman]

 

That's just the price to add or retain elite talent.

So I have to conclude that you never want to see that happen. 6 years of Sano and see ya, right?

 

Paying for talent, I agree with. The Mauer contract, I did not agree with.

 

Nolasco was overpaid from day one, and Kurt Suzuki never was a good hitter.

 

In hockey, the Wild overpaid. They did not get value.

[Major League Ready]

 

Yep. If Mauer hits FA in 2010, Epstein doesn't blink twice before tossing down an 8 year, $200m offer. Not even a moment's hesitation.

And Cashman gave Ellsbury $155-freakin-million.

Jacoby Ellsbury. I mean, come on.

And the Twins would be far better off today had they waited and lost him to Boston.  They could take that $23M and invest it in the front of the rotation SP which for the foreseeable future is a significant barrier to contention.  Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make. 

[TheLeviathan]

Paying for talent, I agree with. The Mauer contract, I did not agree with.

 

Nolasco was overpaid from day one, and Kurt Suzuki never was a good hitter.

 

In hockey, the Wild overpaid. They did not get value.

You never get "value" signing elite talent in FA, if that's what you want out of FA you basically endorse dumpster diving.

 

This revisionist history about Mauer and his contract is silly. The price of doing business with elite talent is not going to net "value" and it's preposterous to expect it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

And the Twins would be far better off today had they waited and lost him to Boston. They could take that $23M and invest it in the front of the rotation SP which for the foreseeable future is a significant barrier to contention. Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.

That's a really easy statement to make in 2015.

 

Try making it in 2010 with a competitive team and a brand new taxpayer funded ballpark.

 

And you think Mauer was a risky contract but think an elite pitcher was a better idea? Hard you seen what happens during the backend of a typical longterm deal to elite pitchers? CC Sabathia and Johan Santana would like to have a word with you about that.

 

There's waaaaaaaayyyyy too much hindsight thinking in this thread.

[HitInAPinch]

 

That's a really easy statement to make in 2015.

Try making it in 2010 with a competitive team and a brand new taxpayer funded ballpark.

And you think Mauer was a risky contract but think an elite pitcher was a better idea? Hard you seen what happens during the backend of a typical longterm deal to elite pitchers? CC Sabathia and Johan Santana would like to have a word with you about that.

There's waaaaaaaayyyyy too much hindsight thinking in this thread.

 

You got that right.     Especially when you consider the 1st post was:

 

Come on... really?

[Minniman]

 

You never get "value" signing elite talent in FA, if that's what you want out of FA you basically endorse dumpster diving.
 

 

That is not correct on both points. Value means making good deals with good players. St. Louis signed Vladimir Tarasenko to an eight season contract at $7.5 million each season instead of doing a bridge contract and risk losing him. That was a large contract at about the same cap as Parise/Suter, but Tarasenko may end up one of the top five forwards in the NHL, and he is going into his prime (23 years old), so locking him up for eight years makes sense.

 

Parise and Suter were signed for 13 seasons after they were already 28 and 27 years old respectively. While the contracts are for essentially 10 seasons, the cap hit will be for 13 unless there is a buyout and the Wild take one on the chin by having to pay 2/3 the contract for no player and up to 20 years of dead money. I suspect a buyout will be part of one or both contracts down the road.

 

St. Louis also signed defenseman Kevin Shattenkirk to a four year $17 million contract ($4.25 million cap hit) one year after the Suter contract. Shattenkirk was good value and has outplayed Suter both during the season and during the playoffs.

 

St. Louis is not immune to overpayment though. Paul Stastny signed a 4 year / $28,000,000 contract with the St Louis Blues, with a cap hit of $7,000,000 last season. Stastny underproduced and did not get value for the first season of the contract, but the Blues are only on the hook for four seasons if he continues to underproduce contract wise. Stastny will still be a productive veteran on the team, so a little overpayment in the short term is not as risky.

 

I do not believe Tarasenko is a dumpster dive. Neither was Shattenkirk. The Blue overpaid a little for Stastny, but the contract was short term and had upside with a team that has other talent. If the Wild had signed Parise and Suter to eight year contract rather than 13 for the same average salary, it would have been better value.

 

The Twins paid Mauer coming off an MVP season in which he suddenly hit for power. They paid him open market rates one season early to lock him up. It was a bold move by the Twins; it was a risky move by the Twins, and they did not get value.

 

The contract for Nolasco was a head shaker. He never was anything better than a middle road third starting pitcher. The Twins overpaid the day the contract was signed because the team would not get value even if Nolasco pitched his averages for the entire contract, and it turned out even worse.

 

This revisionist history about Mauer and his contract is silly. The price of doing business with elite talent is not going to net "value" and it's preposterous to expect it.

 

 

I disagree.

 

Timing and scouting can make a huge difference, and teams have to find that value. If an ace is worth his contract, that is still value. Some of it is luck, but if a third starter is paid like a second starter and ends up a fourth starter or worse, that is not value, and it likely was not ever going to be.

[nicksaviking]

This was basically Joe's second extension, and really the only fair discussion should be if the second extension should have been agreed to earlier or if his first extension should have been longer.

 

After getting the tax payers to pay for 66% of their brand new stadium, having 2010 as a lame duck season for Mauer in Target Field's inaugural season wasn't an option. Forget about the business and PR suicide it would have been, knowing the Minnesota legislative climate, they probably would have called two special sessions and drafted a law mandating the Twins keep Mauer on the pretense that it was some kind of job creation bill.

 

Second guessing the re-signing is like second guessing jumping into WWII after Pearl Harbor, inaction wasn't an option even if it seemed like it was at the time.

[SheboyganBrats]

The river of 20-20 hindsight flows into the ocean of regret.

 

At some point, it's time to move on.

[TheLeviathan]

 

That is not correct on both points. Value means making good deals with good players. St. Louis signed Vladimir Tarasenko to an eight season contract at $7.5 million each season instead of doing a bridge contract and risk losing him. That was a large contract at about the same cap as Parise/Suter, but Tarasenko may end up one of the top five forwards in the NHL, and he is going into his prime (23 years old), so locking him up for eight years makes sense.

 

Parise and Suter were signed for 13 seasons after they were already 28 and 27 years old respectively. While the contracts are for essentially 10 seasons, the cap hit will be for 13 unless there is a buyout and the Wild take one on the chin by having to pay 2/3 the contract for no player and up to 20 years of dead money. I suspect a buyout will be part of one or both contracts down the road.

 

St. Louis also signed defenseman Kevin Shattenkirk to a four year $17 million contract ($4.25 million cap hit) one year after the Suter contract. Shattenkirk was good value and has outplayed Suter both during the season and during the playoffs.

 

St. Louis is not immune to overpayment though. Paul Stastny signed a 4 year / $28,000,000 contract with the St Louis Blues, with a cap hit of $7,000,000 last season. Stastny underproduced and did not get value for the first season of the contract, but the Blues are only on the hook for four seasons if he continues to underproduce contract wise. Stastny will still be a productive veteran on the team, so a little overpayment in the short term is not as risky.

 

I do not believe Tarasenko is a dumpster dive. Neither was Shattenkirk. The Blue overpaid a little for Stastny, but the contract was short term and had upside with a team that has other talent. If the Wild had signed Parise and Suter to eight year contract rather than 13 for the same average salary, it would have been better value.

 

 

Seriously, Tarasenko and Shattenkirk are your comparisons? Are you even trying to make a fair, logical, comparable argument?

 

Tarasenko is on his first extension, ditto Shattenkirk.  Parise and Suter are both on their second major contract.  That is a HUGE difference.  It's apples and oranges.

 

You simply do not get "value" paying to keep elite talent around.  (Much less add it from another team)  That's the nature of it in every sport and to criticize the Twins for locking up Mauer on the basis of "poor value" is an argument so preposterous I can't accurately describe it within the confines of the board's posting policies.

 

I'd love a moderator to give me a one time exemption though, because holy crap my brain hurts.

[Boom Boom]

Whether you were against the Mauer deal at the time, or just against it now is irrelevant.

 

The real issue going forward is that despite his contract, there could very easily be better first base options available to the Twins than Mauer, and finding a way to not play him might make the Twins a better baseball team.