The real problem with the Gardy Firing....

[DaveW]

No, a manager will not put butts in the seats but he can contribute quite a bit in creating a winning team. It's definitely going to take more but I didn't hear anyone talking about how the job was done after tying the can to Gardy. 

 

We'll see what happens, they've already surprised most of us, it could get even more interesting.

I'd love to hear someone tell me ONE name that would have taken these disasters of rotations the past few years and have them even sniff .500 overall. At best a manager can add 3-4 wins at the very tops. Gardy was given AAAA quality teams with AAA quality pitching, he had no shot.

[Danchat]

You guys should read this article on 1500ESPN: http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Jim_Pohlad_distances_himself_from_decision_says_GM_Ryan_calls_shots092914

 

It seems clear to me that Terry Ryan was the guy who fired Gardy, and the Pohlads are basically going to be supporting whatever TR does.

[DaveW]

I didn't watch the press conference but I think I saw a quote in a post afterward, that TR explained away his earlier comments in support of Gardy, in that "I have bosses".

That's my problem with the Pohlads in this situation, they admidtly aren't baseball/sports fans which is fine, if you wanna be like that and be hands off then be hands off! Just don't suddenly decide to force the GM to fire the manager to somehow try to appease the masses or a few vocal season ticket holders or whatever. If you want to create change, actually commit 100%

LIsten, I was all about bringing back TR and Gardy. But if you are going to get rid of one, you should get rid of the other and start with a 100% new leadership across the board. What happens if the Twins have another bad year and they decide to can TR? then you have a new GM coming on board not being able to bring on his choice of a manager, or firing a manager after one year.

 

Either give TR and Gardy another year, or get rid of them both. Don't half ass it because you don't know anything about baseball and only care 100% about ticket sales. I guess you can't expect much more then from a family who made their money foreclosing on poor families during the great depression.

[DaveW]

You guys should read this article on 1500ESPN: http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Jim_Pohlad_distances_himself_from_decision_says_GM_Ryan_calls_shots092914

 

It seems clear to me that Terry Ryan was the guy who fired Gardy, and the Pohlads are basically going to be supporting whatever TR does.

The fact that he basically has said that Ryan is the GM for life indicates enough to me that at the very least you have to take everything Pohlad say with a grain of salt. Don't forget this is the same family that actively tried to sell the Twins out to contraction til the bitter end. It's all about $$$$$ with these jokes of owners.

 

Ryan was clearly upset today and had done nothing but support Gardy and his job in the recent and longer past. Again, why give him a 2 year contract, another crappy team and then decide to can him right before all the new wave of players come up?

This has Pohlad pressure written all over it.

[DocBauer]

I certainly don't have all the answers. Only opinion. And whether Gardy becomes an unfortunate and unintentially sacrificial lamb is certainly open to debate.

 

While I do believe a couple strong offseason moves and the impending arrival of some top prospects will propel the Twins forward, and Gardy could probably do a solid job leading that team, at some point, as an organization, you have to decide what you need to continue forward.

 

Despite being a Gardenhire lover and supporter, I believe the Twins have reached a tipping point where you have to weigh the past with the future. And I believe the Twins have reached a point where they just need a different perspective, a different voice, to lead the rebuild forward.

[Willihammer]

You guys should read this article on 1500ESPN: http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Jim_Pohlad_distances_himself_from_decision_says_GM_Ryan_calls_shots092914

 

It seems clear to me that Terry Ryan was the guy who fired Gardy, and the Pohlads are basically going to be supporting whatever TR does.

 

Clear?

 

 

Ryan and Gardenhire said it was a mutual agreement to part ways, but Ryan added he needed ownership's blessing. In a conference call with reporters, Pohlad said that the decision to replace Gardenhire was Ryan's. The GM recommended it to the owner, who signed off on it, Pohlad said.

I'm confused.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I'd love to hear someone tell me ONE name that would have taken these disasters of rotations the past few years and have them even sniff .500 overall. At best a manager can add 3-4 wins at the very tops. Gardy was given AAAA quality teams with AAA quality pitching, he had no shot.

you are absolutely right, but that doesn't mean that Gardy should stay. He was fired because of the losses which for the most part were out of his control, but that is the way of baseball. What I'm trying to get at, is just because he did as much with the talent that he had, as any other manager could possibly do, doesn't make him the guy you want around for the next year or 6.

[Pius Jefferson]

The fact that he basically has said that Ryan is the GM for life indicates enough to me that at the very least you have to take everything Pohlad say with a grain of salt. Don't forget this is the same family that actively tried to sell the Twins out to contraction til the bitter end. It's all about $$$$$ with these jokes of owners.

 

Ryan was clearly upset today and had done nothing but support Gardy and his job in the recent and longer past. Again, why give him a 2 year contract, another crappy team and then decide to can him right before all the new wave of players come up?

This has Pohlad pressure written all over it.

 

He gave him two years so he wouldn't have to deal with the 'lame duck' questions during the season.

[DaveW]

He gave him two years so he wouldn't have to deal with the 'lame duck' questions during the season.

 

That seems like a terrible business decision all around, if you are already waffling that much, then just get rid of him after 2013. To give him 2 years after last year heading into what was very very very much another obvious rebuilding year, then ditching him after one season? That reeks of the Pohlads suddenly deciding "oh hey, let's make a change to bring the fans back!"

 

Letting Gardy go at the end of last year made sense (even though I did want him back last year) after this year? Not so much. If you really weren't sure you wanted him past 2014, then you shouldn't have guaranteed him a healthy paycheck for 2015.

[LaBombo]

I'd love to hear someone tell me ONE name that would have taken these disasters of rotations the past few years and have them even sniff .500 overall. At best a manager can add 3-4 wins at the very tops. Gardy was given AAAA quality teams with AAA quality pitching, he had no shot.

Dave, you're maybe going to think I'm a dink for this, and you may be right (, I may be crazy), but your rebuttal to the Gardenfiring sums up my support for it better than my support for the support of it does.

 

Think back to what you or a close family member or a close family member's memory were doing just after the Civil War.  Between then and now only Tom Kelly got asked by ownership to return to a 90x4 loss team and accepted.  The Twins lost another 90-some games afterward.

 

So my proposal is that I will be happy to throw out some replacement manager names that you can probably shoot down like the Red Baron in a Peanuts cartoon, but only after you share your feelings for why Gardenhire deserved to make history with another year as the manager of the flailing Minnesota Twins.

[twinsnorth49]

I'd love to hear someone tell me ONE name that would have taken these disasters of rotations the past few years and have them even sniff .500 overall. At best a manager can add 3-4 wins at the very tops. Gardy was given AAAA quality teams with AAA quality pitching, he had no shot.

I don't disagree with that one bit, but after so much losing there is nothing wrong or surprising about a fresh start. I do think that sends a positive message to the fans that they are willing to try a different approach.

[Badsmerf]

Dave, nobody knows how much better a different manager would have done. What we do know, is the Twins were terrible under Gardy. That, is all that really matters right now. I don't buy the argument nobody else could have done better. 

 

You can have that opinion. You can have the opinion Gardy was the best man for the job. I think more will be on the other side of the fence.

[Riverbrian]

I didn't watch the press conference but I think I saw a quote in a post afterward, that TR explained away his earlier comments in support of Gardy, in that "I have bosses".

He said I have bosses in the context of asking them to sign off. That isn't unusual... What would be unusual is Terry Ryan making this move and not talking to his bosses about it. He was asked and he answered.

 

The press conference was pretty straight forward... Terry Ryan answered every question... Gardy was classy.

 

Some large leaps are being made here... There was nothing remotely close in the press conference that led me to believe the owners demanded anything.

 

Terry and Gardy have been working together for a long time. Longer then a large percentage of marriages last. It was a tough day for Gardy... A tough day for Terry Ryan... A tough day for the coaching staff... The players... The secretaries.

 

I agree with Gardy... It was time. But I've seen no evidence of the owners forcing this.

 

4 90 loss seasons is reason enough. That's what was said in the press conference over and over again... By Gardy.

[ashbury]

He said I have bosses in the context of asking them to sign off.

You're right.  I finally got around to listening to the press conference, and nothing in the context about the "bosses" suggests that it came straight from them.

[Kwak]

You're right.  I finally got around to listening to the press conference, and nothing in the context about the "bosses" suggests that it came straight from them.

Perhaps iwas phrased like this: " Terry, the team committed $30MM in 2014 alone for free agent salaries--and all "we" got was four extra wins!  So, what  happened?  Did you again fail to provide talent? Or, did Gardenhire mismanage it?"

[The Wise One]

Firing Gardenhire does not put fans in the seats. It removes a reason for not going. Fanatics blame the manager for losses. Now they say they did something to change the team. About as effective as shuffling a rotation of 4-5 starters and which reserve outfielder tokeep the outcome of a season.

[ashbury]

Perhaps iwas phrased like this: " Terry, the team committed $30MM in 2014 alone for free agent salaries--and all "we" got was four extra wins!  So, what  happened?  Did you again fail to provide talent? Or, did Gardenhire mismanage it?"

Perhaps it was not.

 

TD members should all receive press credentials, so that hard-hitting questions can be asked of Twins management.

[Riverbrian]

Perhaps iwas phrased like this: " Terry, the team committed $30MM in 2014 alone for free agent salaries--and all "we" got was four extra wins!  So, what  happened?  Did you again fail to provide talent? Or, did Gardenhire mismanage it?"

I can't speak for Terry Ryan but I imagine his response to that question would have been something like this.

 

There's plenty of blame to go around and it starts with me. I understand the accountibility of my office. We did make improvements to the roster and we need to make more improvements going forward. Responsibility for where we are starts with me and making hard decisions is part of what needs to be done.

[nicksaviking]

I'm sure there were people asking what the hell Dave Trembly did wrong to get fired from Baltimore or Manny Acta from Cleveland or John Russell in Pittsburgh.  They were given terrible teams with terrible rotations. 

 

It might not be fair, but there's a positive track record of switching out managers in losing situations. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, but if it is broke, try something and make it bold.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I can't speak for Terry Ryan but I imagine his response to that question would have been something like this.

 

There's plenty of blame to go around and it starts with me. I understand the accountibility of my office. We did make improvements to the roster and we need to make more improvements going forward. Responsibility for where we are starts with me and making hard decisions is part of what needs to be done.

But where's the accountability of the GM, who the owner said can have the job for life?  Does TR have to self-impose this accountability?

 

Does TR think that Gardy had an appreciably worse year than he himself had?

[ashbury]

I suppose accountability means different things to different people.  For some, it means punishment (or the constant threat of it).  For others, it means making the team better.

[Mike Sixel]

How many years does one get to NOT make the team better? that seems to be the difference of opinion here.

 

Accountability does not mean you get to say "I promise I will do better next year" for eternity. Not in the corporate world that I have experienced.

[ashbury]

How many years does one get to NOT make the team better?

Five.  I'm looking for the link that supports this rule.

[Riverbrian]

But where's the accountability of the GM, who the owner said can have the job for life?  Does TR have to self-impose this accountability?

 

Does TR think that Gardy had an appreciably worse year than he himself had?

Did TR think that Gardy had an appreciably worse year then he himself had? I can't answer that. Terry Ryan is the only one who can.

 

Does TR have to self impose this accountability? In my opinion... Well... if the Pohlads say he has the job for as long as he wants it... Then yes he does. Terry Ryan has already kinda self imposed that accountability when he said in reply.

 

"I wouldn't hold Jim Pohlad to that statement... It wouldn't be fair to him"

 

"I shouldn't have that type of comfort... We're losing way too many games here to put that kind of faith in anyone".

 

Bottom line... I think its fair game to question Terry Ryan's overall performance and his role in our current position.

 

However... I have never seen or heard Terry Ryan do anything to suggest that he isn't taking responsibility or is not accountable. I've never seen TR throw anyone under the bus and based on the press conference... He didn't throw Gardy under the bus once.

 

Based on my limited information on Terry Ryan... I'd work for him with pride and feel secure that he will be always straight forward and that's a good boss. I'd have his back because I'm pretty sure he'd have mine and I think yesterday's press conference was an example of that relationship between Ryan and Gardy.

 

It was a hard decision made for the team going forward. Gardy said the team needs a new voice. In case Gardy is right... They are going to try it.

[Mike Sixel]

Me saying "I take full accountability for the Twins' problems" has the same effect as Ryan saying it, if nothing changes in Ryan's approach, compensation, leash.....does it?

[Rosterman]

The Twins, surprisingly, had decent attendance in 2014. The season ticket base was quite solid.

 

I doubt it will be the same for 2015 not matter what happens during the off-season. It will start as a year of "let's wait to see what happens." Already, the Twins are rolling out season ticket renewal packages, not at a reduced rate, but with a flat 10% off of everything else that someone could spend -- the magic word is spend -- at the ballpark. If the fans don't come to the ballpark, they don't spend at the ballpark.

 

The Twins did make an attempt to spend last season. They spent on their weakness, which was the rotation, and brought in two pitchers for more than decent wages. They figured they had two more on staff, maybe a comback by Diamond, they took a gamble on Pelfrey, and even ahd hopes that a prospect would break-in mid-season.They did play it safe, not getting that third free-agent solid arm.

 

There was hope that Willingham would anchor  left field, Mauer would be Mauer, someone would play a great centerfield, which did happen off and on during the season. And they even spent on a potential DH when Kendrys Morales came into the market. When that signing happened, the Twins were even inching towards competitiveness and we all thought the chances of at least a .500 season was on the horizon.

 

What spending more and more money allows you to do is cover your mistakes and hope you spend enough that the mistakes don't outweigh the positives. You look at an $85 million payroll, like the Twins had, and suddenly, with injuries, a bad free agent signing, maybe a bad longterm contract working out...you were putting less than $50 million worth of players on the field. If you spend an additional $20-30 million, you might say that you are assured of having $75-80 million of product on the field playing up to par. You might have all $100-115 million, too, and then you should be jumping up and down and watching the stands fill with people and people buying tons of stuff, and the playoffs on the horizon. 

 

In this game, you have to spend money to make money, you have to gamble. You NEVER lose money, as the franchise worth increases every year (unless you keep borrowing against it, like Carl did).

 

But when you have failure, you have to find fault. The Twins need to do a front office cleansing as much as a field staff cleaning. But, sadly, they are such a tight-knit organization that it would be total chaos if they did...because they have no idea of a successful succession plan, or who is out there that could do better AND WOULD WANT to come here. 

 

Even in the managerial search, you are getting guys who want to be a manager, but those that have had some success are going to want carte blanche, total freedom, and that is not going to happen. Even an in-house candidate like Molitor might have second thoughts as he looks at the big picture for next year and beyond...am I going to be able to succeed, or will non-success totally ruin me as a manager forever and ever. 

 

The Twins have to move faster-than-the-norm to get the organization back into shape. If they want free agents to think about coming here, they have to have a plan, and a field staff. Interviewing candidates can take a couple of weeks, or last forever. I have a firm belief that Terry Ryan was hoping this wouldn't happen. But it did, and now he and management have their work cut out for them, and Pohlad has to be convinced that adding to an $80 million salary base is a must to put butts in the seats.

 

The season tickets may not be there come opening day, but if you start to win, you roll out more ticket packages and...on a plus side...you control more of the tickets that are for sale for every game, stub-hub be damned...because those season ticket holders won't be releasing their spares for pennies on the dollar.

[Otto von Ballpark]

However... I have never seen or heard Terry Ryan do anything to suggest that he isn't taking responsibility or is not accountable. I've never seen TR throw anyone under the bus and based on the press conference... He didn't throw Gardy under the bus once.

I agree the press conference was impressive, given the unfortunate circumstances -- but isn't the very act of firing the manager now, a year removed from giving him a contract extension, after our biggest win increase since 2010 and our biggest pythag improvement since 2001 despite largely the same roster and payroll -- isn't that somewhat of an act of deflecting responsibility and accountability?

[Riverbrian]

I agree the press conference was impressive, given the unfortunate circumstances -- but isn't the very act of firing the manager now, a year removed from giving him a contract extension, after our biggest win increase since 2010 and our biggest pythag improvement since 2001 despite largely the same roster and payroll -- isn't that somewhat of an act of deflecting responsibility and accountability?

I thought Terry Ryan explained the contract extension very well. He didn't want Gardy to be constantly asked about his status with a one year deal. He basically said... He didn't care about the extra year of salary that Ron will be getting. I think he was given a two year contract so things would calm down on that front.

 

As for the firing... It could be seen by some as a deflection of responsibility and if he would have thrown Gardy under the bus... I would tend to agree with that. However... He didn't... He manned up and did something that was painful to him.  

 

A change like this... in my opinion... is taking responsibility and accountability. I honestly believe that Terry absolutely hated every single part of it all. I believe him when he says it like losing a brother. I believe he puts that on his shoulders and I believe if the Twins don't turn around under a new manager. Terry will step aside.      

 

In my opinion... To me... It looked like two people taking the responsibility together. It was Gardy who said the team needs a new voice. It wasn't Terry... It was Gardy and I believe them when they say it was a mutual decision. It easy to see why they have worked together as long as they have. 

 

They are both classy individuals in my opinion. It makes me proud to be a Twins fan!!! We can question decisions that they make but I really can't see any reason to question character.

 

I can't imagine a manager not wanting to work for Terry Ryan. This has to open up the list of possible candidates wider then it would normally be. To any prospective manager it's a job where the GM has your back and it took 4 losing seasons to finally cause a change.    

 

I was pro change as long as it was handled with the respect that Gardy deserved and I'm grateful that it was.  

[nicksaviking]

I want a front office change just like I wanted a managerial change, and I don't like that the Pohlad's are basically letting Ryan self-impose his accontability.

 

That being said, Ryan might be the most stand-up guy in the league and if I trust anyone with "sefl-imposed accountability" he might be the only guy I'd trust with it.  If the Twins stink it up next year, I would bet good money that Ryan will releive himself of his duties and explain in his press conference that he isn't stepping down due to health or a wish to retire, but because he didn't do what he was paid to get done.

 

Just because I want change doesn't mean I don't fully appreciate the kind of person that he is.

[ashbury]

To any prospective manager it's a job where the GM has your back and it took 4 losing seasons to finally cause a change.   

... if you're his brother. 

 

Just being contrary here - I like Ryan - but I'm not sure Gardy's treatment quite does what you hope.