Pohlads Willing to Spend?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't know why we have no problems discussing upgrades to middle infielders, starting pitchers and corner outfielders but we can not do so regarding the GM. To some Ryan seems to be a sacred cow.

 

Nick, it's not about Ryan being a sacred cow. I think everyone on this forum, admins/mods included, have serious issues with some things he has done over the past year.

 

Imagine it this way... A couple of posters have serious issues with Brian Dozier.

 

You start a thread about Byron Buxton. Poster A comes in and diverts the conversation into a rant about Brian Dozier and how he's dragging the team down.

 

Annoyed, you give up and start a thread about Pedro Florimon. Poster B wanders in and makes an offhand comment about Brian Dozier and Poster A, seeing the opportunity to talk about Brian Dozier, joins in. The thread is derailed.

 

Exasperated, you move on and begin to talk about Ron Gardenhire's future. Poster C talks about how Gardenhire should be fired because... You guessed it, he plays Brian Dozier too often. Poster A and B are delighted at the turn of events in this thread and pile on. Another thread is off the rails.

 

That's the problem. It's not that people have opinions or that Ryan is a sacred cow. The problem is that the overall health of the forum is being dominated by a couple of posters who really, really dislike Brian Dozier.

 

As site owners, we have to do what is best for the site itself. We don't like wielding ban hammers like drunken tyrants. It's annoying. To a man, we hate doing it. We all have limited time and we can't chase around the same problems all the time... It derails us from our real objective, and that is to improve Twins Daily. Every forum report we get, every poster we have to talk to, every ban we have to enforce... That's time we're not working on the site.

 

At the end of the day, all we're asking for is civility. If someone has talked about how much they don't like Brian Dozier in one thread that day, just reconsider bringing him up in another thread, particularly if that thread is titled "Oswaldo Arcia hits a homer".

 

That's all it takes. Really. One moment to reconsider whether you're basically spamming the board with the same negative message over and over and over again. Really. That's all. I'm not joking. This is exceedingly easy to follow.

[Kwak]

I think complaints like this really fail to acknowledge how few quality free agent options there actually were last offseason.

 

This complaint goes round and round and is beaten to death and this fundamental fact still hasn't changed.

 

Last year wasn't the first year that there were free agents--nor the last year. The public approved a tax subsidy to build a new stadium (that increased ticket prices dramatically!) so the Twins could field better baseball teams than if they had to rely on the revenues from the Metrodome for their stadium revenue. The utter dismissal of the concept of acquiring upper-tier talent (and retaining him) flys completely in the face of ownership's request [for the new stadium] and the public mandate, to field more competitive teams. It's as if "I don't have to, and you can't make me...".

None of the posters I have read have ever disputed the value of drafted amateurs that are developed into professional players isn't desireable or that signing free agents is the only way to rebuild. But whenever any poster suggests a major free agent signing, he is met will a full counter-attack.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

Once the Span AND Revere trades were made last offseason everyone should have seen the current team performance and payroll coming. If you are truly planning on putting a competitive team on the field with hopes of a Wildcard push you don't trade two above average CFs with only unproven rookies and 4th OFs in the wings.

 

Personally, I was elated when I heard about these trades as it brought in high upside SP into the farm system that was desperately needed. People posting about teams rebuilding through FA should go and look again at what FAs are being added. Teams that are having bounce back years (ie Boston) with the addition of 4-5 big FA had the majority of their rotations in place. The idea that a team with as big of hole at SP as the Twins have could spend their way into contention is not very plausible. Could it happen? Sure, but not likely while trying to fill other holes as well.

 

I am not happy with the current team performance but I can see the plan TR has in place and I am one of those people who refuses to look at his past as an indication of how he will spend in the future with an expanded payroll until he proves otherwise. Looking at what he did this past offseason and making claims about his future moves is a little shortsighted IMO as spending more likely wouldn't have been enough to turn this team into a winner. Maybe I'll be wrong and the TR bashers can lineup to tell me "We told you so!" when he continues to nickel and dime his way through FA spending.

 

My hope is that upgrades can be made this offseason at SS and hopefully SP with deals that can help the next good ball club. With those upgrades I hope that the team can break through the 0.500 mark next year. Of course depending on what happens at the trade deadline this year other immediate needs may have to be added to my wish list.

[LaBombo]

The ability to promote the hometown guys was surely a factor back then, but Winfield did fill a big hole after Chili Davis left and the 1996 lineup with Molitor would have actually been pretty impressive had Puckett not been lost. Knoblauch, Molitor, Puckett would have been a pretty killer top of the lineup.

 

Still the rotation was another wish and a prayer group made up of castoffs and youngsters, some who may have promise, and others who had been given many chances but could never put it all together. Sounds familiar. Those that don't know history....

Yep, they were both very rare two-birds-one-stone guys. Hometown marketing bonanzas who also happened to be future HOF guys that aged remarkably well and contributed as players even more than they did as a big name draw for fans.

 

And you're right, much like this team the past couple of seasons, they were essentially doomed by their pitching, and the pursuit of 3000th hits became almost the only reason to go see them.

[The Wise One]

Last year wasn't the first year that there were free agents--nor the last year. The public approved a tax subsidy to build a new stadium (that increased ticket prices dramatically!) so the Twins could field better baseball teams than if they had to rely on the revenues from the Metrodome for their stadium revenue. The utter dismissal of the concept of acquiring upper-tier talent (and retaining him) flys completely in the face of ownership's request [for the new stadium] and the public mandate, to field more competitive teams. It's as if "I don't have to, and you can't make me...".

None of the posters I have read have ever disputed the value of drafted amateurs that are developed into professional players isn't desireable or that signing free agents is the only way to rebuild. But whenever any poster suggests a major free agent signing, he is met will a full counter-attack.

 

It is not a personal attack to counterpoint a position. The definition of a major free agent signing is a debateable topic. Those that set the bar higher and realize the few that are out there worth signing get criticized. God forbid what would happen to you if you even hint that a major free agent player might not want to sign here under the current situation. It is not dismissal of aquiring and retaining a major talent to point out the Twins have very few upper level prospects that would bring back a major talent.

[Guest USAFChief]

The Pohlads should sell the Twins because they continue to write paychecks to...wait for it...Brian (S*G:ing Dozier!

[JB_Iowa]

I felt much more comfortable when Ryan had the "interim" tag in front of his position. While I wasn't in favor of the "back to the future" move of installing Ryan as the interim GM after firing Smith, I at least understood it. (I still think the Twins need some "new blood" from outside the organization and I don't mean a re-tread like Wayne Krivsky).

 

And I love to dream about what may be when some of the prospects mature. But when Ryan stepped down, he said: "The game has changed since I've entered," Ryan said. "It's for bright, energetic negotiators, moreso than anything I possess." Twins: Ryan steps down, Smith will take over | StarTribune.com

 

That's the part that makes me really uncomfortable.

 

And that's why I liked the "interim" tag. And, yes, I know it was just a label and being an interim anything isn't particularly easy (been there, done that) but it really made sense to me.

 

I hope that he still considers himself to be "interim" even if the tag has been removed because I sincerely doubt that negotiations, free agent signings, buying out arbitration years, contract extensions and all the other minutiae on the business side have gotten any easier since he resigned the last time.

 

Maybe he's grooming Radcliffe. I thought it was curious when they didn't even permit him to interview last year so maybe there is a plan in place for a year or two down the road. I guess we'll see.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The Pohlads should sell the Twins because they continue to write paychecks to...wait for it...Brian (S*G:ing Dozier!

 

That's it, you're outta here.

[nicksaviking]

Nick, it's not about Ryan being a sacred cow. I think everyone on this forum, admins/mods included, have serious issues with some things he has done over the past year.

 

Yeah, I regret using the words Sacred Cow, it wasn't my intention, but upon re-reading the post it sounds inflamatory. It's use likely not only irritated some, but also it took away from my intent, which was to rationally ask why others thought discussions regarding the off field staff (and on field management for that matter) illicit stronger responses than the players who we are generally more intimate with due to exposure.

 

it's easy to assess the performances of middle infielders, starting pitchers and corner outfielders because we watch them do their jobs on a daily basis. Not so easy to assess the performance of a GM who does most of his work behind the scenes.

 

And this is likely some of it. A qualitative assement vs. a quantitative one.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yeah, I regret using the words Sacred Cow, it wasn't my intention, but upon re-reading the post it sounds inflamatory. It's use likely not only irritated some, but also it took away from my intent, which was to rationally ask why others thought discussions regarding the off field staff (and on field management for that matter) illicit stronger responses than the players who we are generally more intimate with due to exposure.

 

I didn't take it as inflammatory at all. Don't worry about it.

[old nurse]

Yeah, I regret using the words Sacred Cow, it wasn't my intention, but upon re-reading the post it sounds inflamatory. It's use likely not only irritated some, but also it took away from my intent, which was to rationally ask why others thought discussions regarding the off field staff (and on field management for that matter) illicit stronger responses than the players who we are generally more intimate with due to exposure.

 

.

 

A player that is playing the game to the best of their abilities will 99% of the feel the love of the fan base. Individually they are not held as responsible for the cumulative losses. As fans care about wins and losses, the lack of wins has to be blamed on somebody as they hate the lack of wins. Usually it is the manager in the cross hairs. This time it is the GM. People are impatient. They expect things to happen overnight. as the nights turn into a couple of years their anger boils. The FA apologists would also not like the losses but also see the need for patience.

I did take the sacred cow comment as inflamatory. Just because it is inflamatory there is no need to react to it.

[ashbury]

That's it, you're outta here.

 

I can only imagine the number of times he got banned in the USAF.

[RedBull34]

I take this as a positive sign actually, because hopefully in a few years when the Twins are competing and winning they are able to make a key signature or two, and extend players like Sano, Buxton, and Meyer. I have concerns about the Twins ability to hold onto players like this. Players I want to see stay in Minny for a long time with their (hopefully) HOF numbers. It's not just the three players, the Twins are stacked from top to bottom positionally (other than SS) and I'm really hoping that if the Twins develop as everyone is hoping that they can keep this group together which has the potential to be one of the most feared lineups of the last 25 years.

[goulik]

The new stadium has meant we held on to expensive players (Morneau and Mauer) and we did increase payroll which is still higher than pre Target Field. Unfortunately the wheels came off the rotation. Liriano went South, Baker injured, Blackburn Holy Crap, Slowey was framed, Perkins and Duensing failed as starters, etc and we did not draft a pitcher during the Bill Smith era. Now we Throw in Morneaus issues and we have 2011-2012. Bring on the rebuild and Span and Revere are gone because we have 20 CFs drafted and Sano signed by Smith, and not much else in the minors. What is the point of spending big last off season? Ryan built a team once and he just may do it again or he may fail. I guess my point is, it is way too soon to judge Ryan's job performance.

[Mike Sixel]

When can we judge his performance? Because the big league club is awful, again. And that is mostly on Ryan's previous tenure, because there are virtually no players that have come up in the last few years that contributed for more than a year or so.....the lack of guys in their 2nd/3rd year, doing well, is on the pre-Smith era, not on Smith's era.

 

As for the draft, the head scout does that, not the GM.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

When can we judge his performance? Because the big league club is awful, again. And that is mostly on Ryan's previous tenure, because there are virtually no players that have come up in the last few years that contributed for more than a year or so.....the lack of guys in their 2nd/3rd year, doing well, is on the pre-Smith era, not on Smith's era.

 

As for the draft, the head scout does that, not the GM.....

 

Wait. You just said that it's Ryan's fault because the mid-2000s drafts were bad and the Twins had no good players come through the system.

 

Then you said that the draft is the responsibility of the head scout, not the GM.

 

You can't have it both ways. Yes, Ryan holds responsibility for those mid-2000s drafts, which initially looked awful (as it turns out as Perkins, Plouffe, Revere, etc. turn into decent players, it was more "mediocre" than "OMG TERRIBLE"). On the other hand, he gets credit for adding to a full-of-potential-but-flawed farm system handed to him by Smith.

 

To quote Harry S Truman, "The buck stops here." The guy in charge gets both credit and blame for things the might not always be under his complete control.

[Mike Sixel]

I was not clear, had two separate thoughts.....

 

1. when can I judge terry ryan on the MLB quality? How many awful years do we have to put up with before we say he's not doing a good job?

2. During his previous tenure, the drafts did not produce enough players. You can decide if you want to blame the head scout, or the GM who put him in place. I waffle on that, frankly. But mostly I blame the scouts.

 

We know how this will work, the average fan will give Ryan all the credit in teh world for fixing this team, when Sano and Rosario are up here.....I personally don't care about that that much, I care how the Pohlad's hold the FO accountable.

[ThePuck]

I was not clear, had two separate thoughts.....

 

1. when can I judge terry ryan on the MLB quality? How many awful years do we have to put up with before we say he's not doing a good job?

2. During his previous tenure, the drafts did not produce enough players. You can decide if you want to blame the head scout, or the GM who put him in place. I waffle on that, frankly. But mostly I blame the scouts.

 

We know how this will work, the average fan will give Ryan all the credit in teh world for fixing this team, when Sano and Rosario are up here.....I personally don't care about that that much, I care how the Pohlad's hold the FO accountable.

 

For #1: Well, it took him 6 or 7 years to do it his first go around, didn't it?

For #2: I don't give the GM credit or blame for individual drafts. If it's bad draft afetr bad draft over and over, then you have to look at the GM's decision to retain the head scout. There's also player development in the minors, which plays a big roll.

[howieramone1406390264]

I was not clear, had two separate thoughts.....

 

1. when can I judge terry ryan on the MLB quality? How many awful years do we have to put up with before we say he's not doing a good job?

2. During his previous tenure, the drafts did not produce enough players. You can decide if you want to blame the head scout, or the GM who put him in place. I waffle on that, frankly. But mostly I blame the scouts.

 

We know how this will work, the average fan will give Ryan all the credit in teh world for fixing this team, when Sano and Rosario are up here.....I personally don't care about that that much, I care how the Pohlad's hold the FO accountable.

Last October the Pohlad's begged Ryan to remove the interim from his title well knowing the faith millions of Twins fans have in his ability to plot the proper course for the Twins Organization. My guess is he has a gentlemen's agreement where once the Twins are on top again, he will ride off into the sunset with their heartfelt thanks.

[Kwak]

The GM holds the responibility for team philosophy--"how we play, and who we want to play for us". The Twins selected draftees, developed and promoted on that philosophy. To cite Perkins and Plouffe as examples actually illustrates the failures of said philosophy--Perkins and Plouffe were failures at the positions they were developed to play and were allowed to resuccitate their career due to generous patience by the Twins (because they were 1st RD choices!?).

 

Plus, it's not as if the Twins didn't draft pitchers--they did! Either just play poor selections or they were misdeveloped and ended up as busts. In Ryan Inteview thread the was the comment on Diamond about "finishing-off" the batter so the Pitch-count isn't elevated. He was right about the finish-off part, the pitch-count is just ancillary. But this same inability to"finish-off" batters was the same problems encountered by virtually all of the wins starting pitchers. That shortcoming caused Perkins, Slowey, Blackburn, Duensing etc. to fail as starting pitchers. To me, that indicates a systemic flaw in pitcher development. The fact that Ryan mentions pitch-count illustrates that he has the tail wagging the dog. The pitchers need to deelop the skill to "finish 'em off".

The comment about Liriano and his overuse of his slider concerning injury and effectiveness. Perhaps that is the big reason for Perkins "success"--he eliminates the requirement to throw change-ups and slow curves an is allowed to throw his slider whenever he chooses, becaue now he is a one-inning relief pitcher and the issue of pitch count isn't relevant like it is for starting pitchers.

To exonerate the GM for the draft failures (which might actually be development failures) ignore the other roles the GM plays in the organization. It isn't "the buck stops here" syndrome, but rather "the process starts here" is what makes the GM responsible.

[Wookiee of the Year]

Well, he likely had about 20M available, so I don't think the Saunders contract would have put him up against the payroll available since he got less than 7M.

Where do you get the $20 million figure? I'm under the impression payroll dropped about $15 million from last year while most people were expecting it to drop around $5 million--I don't think I ever heard anyone seriously speculate that payroll would be higher this year than last. So I'm suggesting Ryan had up to $8-10 million in payroll flexibility left, offered the bulk of it to Saunders, and when Saunders declined, decided he'd rather just stand pat with the rest of it. Maybe it depends on what you think "much higher payroll" means. As far as I'm concerned, that could be PR speak for as little as $5 million more, though again, based on last year's payroll, offseason expectations, and the likelihood we did have money we offered Saunders but he did decline, I think $8-10 million left over is most likely.

[ThePuck]

Where do you get the $20 million figure? I'm under the impression payroll dropped about $15 million from last year while most people were expecting it to drop around $5 million--I don't think I ever heard anyone seriously speculate that payroll would be higher this year than last. So I'm suggesting Ryan had up to $8-10 million in payroll flexibility left, offered the bulk of it to Saunders, and when Saunders declined, decided he'd rather just stand pat with the rest of it. Maybe it depends on what you think "much higher payroll" means. As far as I'm concerned, that could be PR speak for as little as $5 million more, though again, based on last year's payroll, offseason expectations, and the likelihood we did have money we offered Saunders but he did decline, I think $8-10 million left over is most likely.

 

According to COTS, they are at 82 million, that's with the pro-rated signing bonuses. Jeremy, who has been keeping track for us, has updated it to a hair over 81M. They normally spend 50-52% of payroll. They haven't seen revenue under 200 million yet at TF. Last year it was 214M, so payroll could have been 107M last year at the lowest if following their model.

 

So it'd be weird they'd project only 180M in revenue this year to say 90M was our payroll limit, especially with them tying season tickets to the All Star game. It's not crazy to think that they probably could have come close to 102 or so million, no? It's not about how much further it's dropped from last year, my number comes from what they likely had to spend versus what they spent.

[Guest USAFChief]

Where do you get the $20 million figure? .

yeah, that's almost undoubtedly too low.

[Kobs]

You can't have it both ways. Yes, Ryan holds responsibility for those mid-2000s drafts, which initially looked awful (as it turns out as Perkins, Plouffe, Revere, etc. turn into decent players, it was more "mediocre" than "OMG TERRIBLE").

 

Those drafts were still OMG TERRIBLE. Some first rounders turned out to be decent. No one turned out to be great. One guy is a good relief pitcher, which isn't that valuable. You don't expect a star out of a 40th round pick. You do expect one out of unlimited rounds over five years.

 

Those drafts = 90+ losses, most likely three years in a row, and counting.

[Major League Ready]

The Red Sox revenue is $120M more than the twins.

[Major League Ready]

Some of these points were no doubt made by others. I did not read the entire thread. I read three pages and it was all I could take.

Tier 1 free agents require long-term contracts. Signing long-term deals at this point in the rebuild, especially for team with middle of the pack revenue would be grossly incompetent and I would bet every GM in MLB would agree.

 

The vast majority of the Free agent SP that many of you are complaining we did not go after are performing very poorly this year. In other words, Ryan was right, those of you who continue to complain we did not go after SPs were wrong. Yet, you continue to complain even after it has become evident that those pitchers were not the answer.

 

Could the FO do better you bet. Sure, I would take the Rays FO over ours in a heartbeat.

 

We only had one good year at Target field. The Pohlads spent the money and retained Joe Mauer. Some of you forget this fact. St. Louis who has similar revenue to the Twins was not willing to do that with Pujols.

 

This team or any other team with equivalent revenue is not going to land SPs in free agency on the level of Sabathia, Grienke, Lee, etc. Too many other teams simply have way more to spend and this team really can’t afford the risk. There are many examples of failures with very high dollar free agent SPs, including Johan Santana. That was not a complete bust for the Mets but it was not good either.

[TheLeviathan]

Those drafts were still OMG TERRIBLE. Some first rounders turned out to be decent. No one turned out to be great. One guy is a good relief pitcher, which isn't that valuable. You don't expect a star out of a 40th round pick. You do expect one out of unlimited rounds over five years.

 

Those drafts = 90+ losses, most likely three years in a row, and counting.

 

This. Those drafts were pretty bad and were a big part of the problem for Bill Smith's eventual demise. There was just nothing in the upper minors of any significance.

[nicksaviking]

We only had one good year at Target field. The Pohlads spent the money and retained Joe Mauer. Some of you forget this fact. St. Louis who has similar revenue to the Twins was not willing to do that with Pujols.

 

It required a 10 year $240 million deal to sign the 32-year-old Pujols.

It required an 8 year $184 million deal to sign the 28-year-old Mauer.

 

Those deals were only similar in the fact that they invovled a team's franchise player. The Cardinals had already given Pujols one $100 million + contract.

 

And the Cardinals had won one World Series with Pujols and now one without him. They have proven that they know what they are doing. As you mentioned, St. Louis has a similar revenue as the Twins. They have had no reservations about signing and trading for star players of every caliber.

 

Bonus: St. Louis asked for the public to pay for 13% of their stadium. The Pohlad's demaned the public pay 66%.

 

I can't think of any positive way the Twins can be compared to the Cardinals.

[ThePuck]

It required a 10 year $240 million deal to sign the 32-year-old Pujols.

It required an 8 year $184 million deal to sign the 28-year-old Mauer.

 

Those deals were only similar in the fact that they invovled a team's franchise player. The Cardinals had already given Pujols one $100 million + contract.

 

And the Cardinals had won one World Series with Pujols and now one without him. They have proven that they know what they are doing. As you mentioned, St. Louis has a similar revenue as the Twins. They have had no reservations about signing and trading for star players of every caliber.

 

Bonus: St. Louis asked for the public to pay for 13% of their stadium. The Pohlad's demaned the public pay 66%.

 

I can't think of any positive way the Twins can be compared to the Cardinals.

 

nice post.

[ThePuck]

It required a 10 year $240 million deal to sign the 32-year-old Pujols.

It required an 8 year $184 million deal to sign the 28-year-old Mauer.

 

Those deals were only similar in the fact that they invovled a team's franchise player. The Cardinals had already given Pujols one $100 million + contract.

 

And the Cardinals had won one World Series with Pujols and now one without him. They have proven that they know what they are doing. As you mentioned, St. Louis has a similar revenue as the Twins. They have had no reservations about signing and trading for star players of every caliber.

 

Bonus: St. Louis asked for the public to pay for 13% of their stadium. The Pohlad's demaned the public pay 66%.

 

I can't think of any positive way the Twins can be compared to the Cardinals.

 

Do you think it was irresponsible for the Mets to sign Wright so long or the Rockies to sign Tulo for so long?