Kwesi Fired

[nicksaviking]

2 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Many things can be true at the same time:

* KAM was put in a crappy spot to have to try and be competitive with a roster that needed to be blown up when he was hired.  This forced a lot of decisions that may not have happened if he hadn't had those constraints.

* They have had a couple good free agent groups

* He made the right decision to get a young QB.  Whether he chose the right one is TBD.

But what got him fired is simple:

* Despite what one person on this planet believes - his draft track record is just awful.  Whomever takes the job after him is going to have a steep hill to climb filling the holes left by 4 years of bad drafting.

* The most impactful players on this team were free agents or drafted by Rick Spielman.  Rick Spielman who was shown the door an eternity ago in NFL years.

Yeah, good round up. 

If we had put a poll on this forum four years ago asking what is the most important job of a new GM and listed 'Good drafts' 'Good free agency' 'Good cap management' 'Good whatever', Good drafts would have been the unanimous choice. And I bet it would be the unanimous choice of every owner in the league.

The guy is really smart and likable though. He's going to find a meaningful job again. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a GM somewhere else eventually. Just going to have to convince someone he's refined and upgraded his draft related analytics.

[Vanimal46]

2 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Well....that's a choice.

Agreed. To me it feels like the Wilfs are telling KOC to dig us out of this mess, and if it doesnt happen you’ll be next 

[nicksaviking]

2 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Well....that's a choice.

Brzyzninksi is the GM but I'd guess KOC is actually auditioning for one of those 'football czar' jobs.

Which I do NOT endorse.

[TheLeviathan]

1 minute ago, nicksaviking said:

Brzyzninksi is the GM but I'd guess KOC is actually auditioning for one of those 'football czar' jobs.

Which I do NOT endorse.

Agreed.  I'd rather fire him than make that choice.

[TheLeviathan]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, good round up. 

If we had put a poll on this forum four years ago asking what is the most important job of a new GM and listed 'Good drafts' 'Good free agency' 'Good cap management' 'Good whatever', Good drafts would have been the unanimous choice. And I bet it would be the unanimous choice of every owner in the league.

The guy is really smart and likable though. He's going to find a meaningful job again. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a GM somewhere else eventually. Just going to have to convince someone he's refined and upgraded his draft related analytics.

I like KAM!  He seems like a good dude.  I had his back after the forced "competitive rebuild" stuff....but the draft record speaks for itself.

He's been too bad at drafting to keep his job.

[Vanimal46]

Old friend George Paton has an expiring contract with the Broncos too… Maybe that’s who we scoop up to be the next GM. I can’t imagine teaming up with Sean Payton is a long term gig for anyone 

[nicksaviking]

Just now, TheLeviathan said:

Agreed.  I'd rather fire him than make that choice.

At this point I'd agree. 

But it does seem like KAM and KOC didn't exactly see eye to eye on personnel. Maybe KOC had better QB ideas and better draft ideas and he has the receipts to back it up and that's why KAM was replaced. Really curious to see how it plays out this year.

[Vanimal46]

Just now, nicksaviking said:

At this point I'd agree. 

But it does seem like KAM and KOC didn't exactly see eye to eye on personnel. Maybe KOC had better QB ideas and better draft ideas and he has the receipts to back it up and that's why KAM was replaced. Really curious to see how it plays out this year.

If the Drake Maye trade rumors had any substance to them, my guess is KOC would have traded the farm to trade up for him. 

On that note about QB…

 

[TheLeviathan]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

If the Drake Maye trade rumors had any substance to them, my guess is KOC would have traded the farm to trade up for him. 

On that note about QB…

 

We're going to get a really good idea on how KOC feels (and felt) about JJ being the young QB this offseason.

[nicksaviking]

1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

We're going to get a really good idea on how KOC feels (and felt) about JJ being the young QB this offseason.

KAM could be the scapegoat, even if he doesn't deserve near as much blame as he is or will get.

Still, I have to think KOC had a decent amount of say in drafting McCarthy. Seems highly unlikely a guy thought of as a QB guru would have been saying, "No, No, No!" and the GM says, "You're getting him, and I don't care if you like it or not!"

KOC's hands can't be completely clean on this deal. BUT, that could be the narrative that ends up getting floated out there.

[Vanimal46]

3 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

We're going to get a really good idea on how KOC feels (and felt) about JJ being the young QB this offseason.

Yeah. If KOC really doesn’t think McCarthy can run his system as intended, then let’s cut bait now while he still has decent value. Otherwise JJM could easily become the next Anthony Richardson/Zach Wilson who aren’t worth more than a late day 3 pick. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

From what is public, I liked him because he took risks and built competent rosters. You wanted the Vikings to get the QBOTF, you've said trade everything to get him. He trades a couple seconds and a sixth to get an extra first rounder in a QB heavy draft. He tries to trade up to get one of the top three. The teams reject the trades. So he trades a 3rd and 4th to move up to get JJ (and another pick which is Reichard). We finally have a GM who makes moves to get the QB that (apparently) his COY wants to build around. 

Now the next GM knows that if he misses on a QB, he's out? Like Speilman was GM for 15 years, was 9 games over .500, made the playoff six times and won 3 playoff games? But Kwesi gits four seasons, a lot more wins, and two playoff appearances but is gone b/c of Darnold? Wilfs reward mediocrity. 

He traded for the extra first (which by draft charts was an overpay) WITHOUT having any idea if it was enough to get into the Top 3--sheer lunacy.  The teams may well have rejected trades because they thought KAM was too leveraged at that point by getting another first without an endgame, and thought they could get more.

Pretty much every GM for the last 20 years knows full well going into it that if they have to make a QB decision, and they choose wrong, they'll be out.  KAM is no different in that regard, and the next GM will know that well, even without this example.

[Cap'n Piranha]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

And we just had the most successful four year run in something like 25 or thirty years. 

 

If two playoff appearances and zero wins (and I'd add, no playoff games where the team looked even halfway competent) is a high bar of success for you, then you need to aspire to greater things my man.

The window that includes 2017-2019 is clearly better (2 appearances, but 2 wins, and a CCG).  So is 1997-2000 (within your 30 year range) at 4 appearances and 4 wins.

If you're point is that the Vikings have been consistently inconsistent at being successful for the last 25-30 years, I'll agree with you heartily.  But the KAM era is a continuation, not a departure, from that reality.

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

I'd guess KOC keeps his job. Not an endorsement, just my presumption. Somehow this disaster of an offense finished over .500 last year. Even if McCarthy is the starter week 1 and is never any good, just knowing his limitations is going to set the Vikings up to be a better team than they were last year.

Also, I think firing the OL coach is going to show to be a significantly bigger deal than anyone would ever assume.

This is why I feel like KOC should be next out the door.  He's an offense first guy who has yet to put a consistently good offense on the field in 4 years; I feel like it's poor to bad slightly more often than it is good to great.  If the Vikings have even a decent offense this year, they go maybe 11-6 or 12-5?  All of the sudden the narrative could change quite a bit.

However, when your offense-first coach produces a bad offense despite every starter on offense (other than Nailor) being a 1st/2nd round pick or on an 8 figure AAV deal (or both), then it's clear to me that the problem is the coach, not the talent.  Add to the complete cluster that was JJM's season, and it reads to me like KOC just isn't good enough to put together a competent offense right now.

If it's me, I tell KOC that he can entirely shake up his staff and cede a bunch of control over the offense, or he can clean out his office.  If he chooses the latter, I promote Flores and go look for an up-and-coming offensive mind that can clearly articulate how to get JJM to improve.  In fact, I make a big part of the interview a session where I watch him coach JJM for a couple hours, on the field and in the film room.

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, good round up. 

If we had put a poll on this forum four years ago asking what is the most important job of a new GM and listed 'Good drafts' 'Good free agency' 'Good cap management' 'Good whatever', Good drafts would have been the unanimous choice. And I bet it would be the unanimous choice of every owner in the league.

The guy is really smart and likable though. He's going to find a meaningful job again. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a GM somewhere else eventually. Just going to have to convince someone he's refined and upgraded his draft related analytics.

KAM is supposed to be an analytics guy--if that's the case, I wonder if the issue is that the analytical data is just not as good when it comes to evaluating college talent.  It makes some sense to me that just because a player has good analytics in college doesn't necessarily mean that would translate to the NFL.  However, the analytics on players in the NFL probably are much better at determining that player's likelihood to play well in the NFL.  In that case, it makes a certain amount of sense that a KAM-led FO would do well in FA, but struggle in the draft (unless you believe the smoke that all the defensive FAs were straight Flores recommendations).

As such, I would think the best fit for KAM would be to take a director of pro personnel type role, where he focuses much more on pro players, and very little on the draft.  Should he get another GM role, he should probably mostly delegate the draft process.

[nicksaviking]

7 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

This is why I feel like KOC should be next out the door.  He's an offense first guy who has yet to put a consistently good offense on the field in 4 years; I feel like it's poor to bad slightly more often than it is good to great.  If the Vikings have even a decent offense this year, they go maybe 11-6 or 12-5?  All of the sudden the narrative could change quite a bit.

However, when your offense-first coach produces a bad offense despite every starter on offense (other than Nailor) being a 1st/2nd round pick or on an 8 figure AAV deal (or both), then it's clear to me that the problem is the coach, not the talent.  Add to the complete cluster that was JJM's season, and it reads to me like KOC just isn't good enough to put together a competent offense right now.

If it's me, I tell KOC that he can entirely shake up his staff and cede a bunch of control over the offense, or he can clean out his office.  If he chooses the latter, I promote Flores and go look for an up-and-coming offensive mind that can clearly articulate how to get JJM to improve.  In fact, I make a big part of the interview a session where I watch him coach JJM for a couple hours, on the field and in the film room.

KOC is on a short leash for me, but I think you're underselling the QB position. The team won 13 and 14 games when they had good-not-elite QBs Cousins and Darnold for a full season, then stunk when they had to go Dobbs/Mullins/Hall and McCarthy/Wentz/Brosmer. And stunk is relative because they STILL won seven and nine games with complete blackholes at the most important position in all of pro sports.

Even if the other spots on the offense are stacked (and they weren't considering the OL hasn't been good in two decades) I think an ineffectual QB is going to drag everyone down. And I don't think all QBs, or even most QBs can be 'coached up', certainly not to the level of getting back to 13 or 14 wins.

[Cap'n Piranha]

12 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

KOC is on a short leash for me, but I think you're underselling the QB position. The team won 13 and 14 games when they had good-not-elite QBs Cousins and Darnold for a full season, then stunk when they had to go Dobbs/Mullins/Hall and McCarthy/Wentz/Brosmer. And stunk is relative because they STILL won seven and nine games with complete blackholes at the most important position in all of pro sports.

Even if the other spots on the offense are stacked (and they weren't considering the OL hasn't been good in two decades) I think an ineffectual QB is going to drag everyone down. And I don't think all QBs, or even most QBs can be 'coached up', certainly not to the level of getting back to 13 or 14 wins.

To be accurate, 4 of those 7 wins in 2023 were with Cousins.  KOC went 17-8 (17-9 with playoffs) with Cousins and 14-3 (14-4) with Darnold.  So 31-11 (31-13) with those two, 11-15 without.  That tells me that KOC is not actually that good at developing QBs; he needs a veteran that's been in the league for a few years.  That's not a bad thing per se, other than when the strategy becomes "draft a 21 year old and hand him the keys to your slow-developing downfield passing scheme", even though the QB you choose didn't do that in college.

That is where the issue here is; KOC either grossly misjudged JJMs ability to run his offense, or he just didn't care.  Either way, not a guy I want having total control over the on-field decisions my team makes.  Like I said before, if KOC is willing to humble himself and make wholesale changes, I'm on board to keep him.  But my guess is that if KOC ever does become a successful HC, it's because the Vikes fire him, and he's forced to get self-reflective.

[TheLeviathan]

Maybe I missed someone say this but it struck me after listening to the Wilf press conference:

They felt so unsure about continuing with Kwesi that they'd rather fire him, go with an interim group through FA and the draft.....and then hire his replacement.

That tells me they came away really, really shaken about his decision making that they'd rather wing it than let him have another go at it.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Maybe I missed someone say this but it struck me after listening to the Wilf press conference:

They felt so unsure about continuing with Kwesi that they'd rather fire him, go with an interim group through FA and the draft.....and then hire his replacement.

That tells me they came away really, really shaken about his decision making that they'd rather wing it than let him have another go at it.

My take was that KOC was campaigning for control of player personnel, and the Wilfs thought it couldn't hurt, but they wanted to see how it played out this year before committing to handing over all the keys.

I think that would explain the weird timing. If the new final decision maker was already in house, there was no rush to go out in the rat race and look for a replacement.

[nicksaviking]

I also wonder if the ambiguity of Flores' return had anything to do with KAM. Could have been some personnel disagreement on that side of the ball too. 

Or it could have been the other way I suppose too. Flores knew KAM and KOC were battling for control, but Flores liked that KAM kept getting him his preferred free agents, and Flores needed to be re-assured that KOC would let him have control of that side of the ball.

Probably every word of this post is nonsense though. Except for the sentence directly preceding this one..

[Mike Sixel]

For some reason, my account wasn't deleted, so I came back to see what y'all thought today.

I'm good with this decision. 

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

I also wonder if the ambiguity of Flores' return had anything to do with KAM. Could have been some personnel disagreement on that side of the ball too. 

Or it could have been the other way I suppose too. Flores knew KAM and KOC were battling for control, but Flores liked that KAM kept getting him his preferred free agents, and Flores needed to be re-assured that KOC would let him have control of that side of the ball.

Probably every word of this post is nonsense though. Except for the sentence directly preceding this one..

Sirles on Purple Daily called it a coup.  Flores and KOC didn't go to the Senior Bowl and stayed back to finish putting in the final daggers.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

If Kwesi is as terrible as people say, then O'Connell gets a bunch more leash, right? That sounds consistent to me. I agree with @gunnarthor that O'Connell look like Super Bowl material. Four years left on his current contract, at least two more years. 

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Sirles on Purple Daily called it a coup.  Flores and KOC didn't go to the Senior Bowl and stayed back to finish putting in the final daggers.

Wow. This gettin' deep.

[nicksaviking]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

For some reason, my account wasn't deleted, so I came back to see what y'all thought today.

I'm good with this decision. 

We're all just sitting around scratching their heads today.

Which is weird considering both moves were basically what 90% of all posters had been asking for? Us humans are weird.

[DocBauer]

I'm not entirely surprised by this. And it's not ONE thing. I think Kwesi is probably a very good FO man, I just don't think he's a particularly good #1 guy. Of course, he may grow and learn and get another chance later.

Personally, I like a lot of what McCarthy showed this season once they just told him to go put and play. He's a man of intelligence, character, a good athlete, and he's got a pretty live arm. I think the instincts are there. But yes, there are mechanical issues that had him miss wide open receivers at times with balls over their heads or at their feet. I think he's got a chance to be pretty damn good, but he was essentially a rookie being thrown out there.

Regarding Donald, it's my understanding that what the Vikings offered and what Seattle offered was almost the EXACT same deal. I don't know the EXACT details, but Seattle had some sort of parachute built in to the deal where they could walk away after this season if things didn't go well without a crippling financial penalty. Again, this is what I've heard and read, but Darnold was told he wasn't guaranteed a starting job due to McCarthy's status as QBOF so he moved on.

Kwesi could have done a better job of handling that situation. 

Kwesi has a very good track record, overall, of adding quality FA to the roster. And he's done a good job finding some UDFA that have surprised. And it's not his fault that Kelly had enough concussions that should move him to retirement at this point. It's also not his fault that Hockenson got hurt. And it's not his fault, entirely at least, that Hargrave and Allen were almost outplayed consistently by a couple of kids already on the roster.

But it IS his head on the line when his drafts have been so disappointing. 

It's not his fault that a very talented CB with promise was killed tragically in an accident. And it's really nice that Ward is starting to develop in to something better than just a quality special teamer. But Cine is completely out of football, and Booth and Evans were washouts. And the big FA haul of last season basically left CB bare except for the starters, though kudos for adding Rodgers. 

He HIT on Addison, LDR, Reichard, Turner, and Jackson. And he MIGHT have hit on Dawkins. Ward is starting to show signs. Jurgens and Rouse show potential as possible OL depth pieces at least. And I've already mentioned McCarthy has potential at least.

But his drafts are littered with NOTHING that puts depth and potential future starters at the mercy of future drafts and FA with a payroll that needs to be cleaved, or at the very least adjusted, to compensate. You just can't have 1 good player and a couple decent options year in and year out. Are the Vikings scouts that bad? Or was Kwesi's choices that poor?

I NEVER liked the trade for Thielen. It spoke of desperation. And not only did it cost us a fairly high pick, but the secondary pick in the trade cost us a round only because he wasn't cut a week earlier! Shouldn't the GM know and understand his own trade?

2025 draftee LB Kobe King was let go. BUT, UDFA LB Austin Keys was kept as a prospect and ST player for the ENTIRE season up until the final week, where the Vikings had nothing to play for but pride. But he was suddenly released to make roster room for "I don't remember". That's how unimportant that roster move for the final game was. (I think it might have been a TE addition, but who cares) Keys was immediately snapped up by Arizona.

Austin Keys might go down in history as nothing more than a kid from Auburn who got a shot in the NFL and never amounted to anything. But that's NOT the point! You like the potential of a kid enough that you keep him ALL SEASON over a wasted draft pick, but instead of just keeping him rostered in to next season, you just let him go the last week of the season because you want an extra ? player for a game that means nothing?

I mean, some of the late season moves of Thielen and and a potentially playable LB that you kept because he MIGHT turn out to be a decent player and you want "Oops, My Bad" to be an excuse for a GM?

He might have done some solid things. But he has largely blown his drafts. And some recent really bad and silly moves seem to indicate a guy who really isn't paying attention. 

[TheLeviathan]

13 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

We're all just sitting around scratching their heads today.

Which is weird considering both moves were basically what 90% of all posters had been asking for? Us humans are weird.

I'm surprised by the timing.

[TheLeviathan]

https://archive.is/20260201131948/https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/7012881/2026/02/01/kwesi-adofo-mensah-firing-explained-vikings/

[Aggies7]

SKOR north guys saying that hiring KAM was an experiment, and a failed one. Lots of missed time, disconnected from coaching staff, in over his head. Apparently took paternity leave during training camp in 2023, amongst other missed time. And sort of blaming the Wilf’s for not having their finger on the pulse of what’s going on behind the scenes. Since the wilf’s aren’t usually in the building day to day.

[TheLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

SKOR north guys saying that hiring KAM was an experiment, and a failed one. Lots of missed time, disconnected from coaching staff, in over his head. Apparently took paternity leave during training camp in 2023, amongst other missed time. And sort of blaming the Wilf’s for not having their finger on the pulse of what’s going on behind the scenes. Since the wilf’s aren’t usually in the building day to day.

Most of that comes from the article above.  It is worth the read.

We elevated him from spreadsheets to running a draft, the jump was too much and the results have born that out.  It probably explains why FA was better for him, you can run that as a numbers game.  The draft is about truly understanding football.  It doesn't seem like KAM does.  (I mean, coaches had decided Cine was a bust nearly by the end of camp.  That pick was THAT bad)

What I wish we could find out is who was on what side of the QB decision this summer.  KAM feels like he's being thrown under the bus (as the PD guys said) when this was a failed group decision.