NEWS: Twins Agree to Sign Infielder Ty France

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

So, your big picture view is that the club provides the role players, back end starters and low leverage relievers from their system and if they spend money it should be on premium free agents and extensions? As a general plan, I really like that, but it seems that a lot of teams spend on marginal players every year, including the high dollar Yankees, Red Sox and Braves.

I think a case can be made that the Twins don't have people in their system to handle the roles that Coulombe, Bader and France might fill. However, I also think a case can be made that what they players offer is pretty marginal and not worth the expense or roster filling.

I keep going back to 2023 thinking "where would the Twins have been without Taylor, Solano and Farmer"--the same type of moves as adding Bader and France. It seems to me that on balance adding veteran players can be helpful, but there's no guarantees. In 2024, Santana was fine, but Farmer was disappointing and Margot was close to a disaster. The right guys need to be added.

Back to Ty France. Given that Miranda hasn't been able to be a good player for an entire season and given the options behind Miranda, yeah they need to raise the floor there. He's getting pretty close to a pre-arb contract without a guarantee of making the squad so they held the line and won't have a lot invested in case France continues to be below replacement level. Still, I'm tired of seeing bat-only guys come in and get 400 plate appearances and playing a lot in the field. 

 

Those high dollar teams don't need to worry so much about where every dollar goes. They don't have to take the high variance route because they can spend so much. Their floor is a secondary thought because they're already setting it higher because of their ceiling raisers.

I've said in other threads that I'm not arguing there isn't logic in what they're doing. Reasonable arguments can certainly be made for every move they've made. But they also topped out at 87 wins in 2023. In a division where no other team won more than 78 games. I know MAT is remembered fondly by many for that season, but I'm not so impressed with him being a complete black hole in the lineup. He played good defense, but they should be able to get the equivalent of good defense and a black hole in the lineup out of a collection of pre-arb guys. Combined that trio made about 14 mil in 2023. Add in rehabbing Paddack at 2.5 and Joey Gallo at 11 and you're at star level money. This year they have 33 mil in 1 year vet deals I think could be shed and spent on a star.

The Twins (and every team) need to develop to win. But, I think, part of developing is letting them play the minor roles and learn over long stretches of time. France is a true low risk guy because I don't think they'd hold him all year. But it also cost them Helman, Henriquez, or Headrick to bring him in for just a ST look at maybe raising the floor. I understand the "raise the floor" idea. I don't think it's outlandish. But I don't think it wins you a title as a mid-market team. So I'd prefer extra risk chasing ceiling.

[chpettit19]

16 minutes ago, RpR said:

😫

More likely 77-80-81-76-85 back to the seventies where they were in a semi-continuous rebuilding.😫

As opposed to the 85-78-101-73-78-87-82 we've seen out of them the last 7 non-2020 seasons? The super-ball driven bomba squad is the only thing keeping them from being exactly what you laid out.

That 70s "semi-continuous rebuilding" team averaged 80 wins (79.8 to be exact). The non-cheater ball Twins have averaged 81 (80.5 to be exact). 0.7 win difference. What point is it you're trying to prove with that 0.7 win difference?

[KirbyDome89]

47 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

When those cheaper guys are Nick Gordon, DaShawn Keirsey and Austin Martin it becomes entirely reasonable to stick with the underperforming guys. 

Matt Wallner sat at AAA with an OPS near 1.000 while Gallo flailed away for nearly 3 months. Martin, as a rookie, at minimum matched Bader's offensive output last year. If defense was that important they could've found a glove only CF option for a lot less. If you want to argue that guys like Bader and France keep the bottom from falling out, I'd say you're patching the hole with paper mache.

Nobody has said that France or Bader, in a vacuum, are unreasonable moves, but based on the Twins modus operandi their usage doesn't align with what some are suggesting their role will be. They're also unlikely to get a quick hook, and most importantly, neither moves the needle as far as collecting Ws is concerned. 

[NYCTK]

28 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Martin, as a rookie, at minimum matched Bader's offensive output last year.

Irrelevant when Martin can't play the OF. 

LET THE KIDS PLAY is a terrible strategy if they suck. Which people are happy to say about Julien but hesitant for Martin even though he's actually older and, I'd argue, much worse. 

[KirbyDome89]

13 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Irrelevant when Martin can't play the OF. 

LET THE KIDS PLAY is a terrible strategy if they suck. Which people are happy to say about Julien but hesitant for Martin even though he's actually older and, I'd argue, much worse. 

100% relevant if Martin can play 2B and you can sign or call up somebody for CF defense. That's Bader with some offensive upside + $6M. 

Instead they're clinging to washed, or semi washed guys who also might suck, but will occupy a roster spot infinitely longer and cost more. 

[NYCTK]

2 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

100% relevant if Martin can play 2B and you can sign or call up somebody for CF defense. That's Bader with some offensive upside + $6M. 

Instead they're clinging to washed, or semi washed guys who also might suck, but will occupy a roster spot infinitely longer and cost more. 

So Michael A Taylor? You would have preferred the 2 mil to him? 

[KirbyDome89]

3 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

So Michael A Taylor? You would have preferred the 2 mil to him? 

You can find a .543 OPS + defense in house. 

[NYCTK]

4 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

You can find a .543 OPS + defense in house. 

So you're passing on the only two premium defense free agent outfielders but are so sure you can find one just as good and cheaper...

This is why I'm saying you Bader haters are just objectively wrong. 

[KirbyDome89]

8 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

So you're passing on the only two premium defense free agent outfielders but are so sure you can find one just as good and cheaper...

This is why I'm saying you Bader haters are just objectively wrong. 

Neither plays good enough defense to justify the number of PAs they'd get so whatever defensive edge either could provide is null. If you're insistent on having another black hole in the lineup, you can pay Keirsey league minimum, have solid if unspectacular CF defense, and throw the $6M+ in savings at somebody who can actually hit. If Keirsey doesn't float your boat you can sacrifice some defense, make Castro the Buxton insurance ergo upgrading your offense while still keeping the savings. If you think that (barring injury) giving 350-400 PAs, at least half of which will come against RHP, to a glove only OF is a good investment then we simply disagree with the resource allocation. 

It isn't "hating," it's just the reality of the situation. This team absolutely will not use Bader as only a 4th OF option/late innings pinch runner or defensive replacement. 

[RpR]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

As opposed to the 85-78-101-73-78-87-82 we've seen out of them the last 7 non-2020 seasons? The super-ball driven bomba squad is the only thing keeping them from being exactly what you laid out.

That 70s "semi-continuous rebuilding" team averaged 80 wins (79.8 to be exact). The non-cheater ball Twins have averaged 81 (80.5 to be exact). 0.7 win difference. What point is it you're trying to prove with that 0.7 win difference?

Don't want to watch what amounts to a AAA team.

There was no cheater ball all teams used it so that statement is silly.

[NYCTK]

7 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Neither plays good enough defense to justify the number of PAs they'd get so whatever defensive edge either could provide is null. If you're insistent on having another black hole in the lineup, you can pay Keirsey league minimum, have solid if unspectacular CF defense, and throw the $6M+ in savings at somebody who can actually hit. If Keirsey doesn't float your boat you can sacrifice some defense, make Castro the Buxton insurance ergo upgrading your offense while still keeping the savings. If you think that (barring injury) giving 350-400 PAs, at least half of which will come against RHP, to a glove only OF is a good investment then we simply disagree with the resource allocation. 

It isn't "hating," it's just the reality of the situation. This team absolutely will not use Bader as only a 4th OF option/late innings pinch runner or defensive replacement. 

Sure. You could. Your defense would be atrocious. If you're happy giving up a lot more runs that's fine. 

 

[ashbury]

52 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Neither plays good enough defense to justify the number of PAs they'd get so whatever defensive edge either could provide is null. If you're insistent on having another black hole in the lineup, you can pay Keirsey league minimum, have solid if unspectacular CF defense, and throw the $6M+ in savings at somebody who can actually hit. If Keirsey doesn't float your boat you can sacrifice some defense, make Castro the Buxton insurance ergo upgrading your offense while still keeping the savings. If you think that (barring injury) giving 350-400 PAs, at least half of which will come against RHP, to a glove only OF is a good investment then we simply disagree with the resource allocation. 

It isn't "hating," it's just the reality of the situation. This team absolutely will not use Bader as only a 4th OF option/late innings pinch runner or defensive replacement. 

Mostly agree.  But aside from Buxton, the Twins have no one else anywhere in their system with CF skills close to Bader's.  Not even in the low minors, where defense is more about potential.  Maybe they decided that's a major lack. (To which I would ask them why they've not developed anyone.)

If you substitute Keirsey for Bader, you (probably? maybe?) gain some offense but at the cost of some defense.

If you are familiar with the idea of "efficient frontiers" in investment portfolios, I see this as somewhat similar to comparing investments.  In a nutshell, many opportunities (whether financial investments or baseball players) are clearly better than others, but among the best choices available, it's often still a question of tradeoffs.  For example, expected return on a bond, versus its risk.  You can draw a curve of all the good opportunities (where worse ones in both dimensions lie elsewhere below the curve), and then choose the spot you want to be, on that outermost curve.

Replace Risk and Return with Offense and Defense, and hopefully the parallel is clear. (Offense, Defense, and investment Return are all positive things, while Risk is a negative attribute, so for baseball players that X-axis would be defensive ineptitude, I suppose.)

Among baseball players in general, guys like Buxton are on the efficient frontier while Bader is not.  But players like Buxton aren't available since they are under contract to other teams.  In terms of backup players who are actually available, Bader might actually belong on the efficient frontier of players the Twins could have added.  For some situations (e.g. Buxton down for a lengthy period), you might want to choose him simply because of the unique skillset.

Weighing against that is Bader's salary compared to Keirsey, and the inability to shuttle him down and up to St Paul as you can with Keirsey.  Efficient frontiers are hard to wrangle by hand, when you go above 2 dimensions, and you need a computer.  I still find it a useful way of generalized thinking, and I see Bader as actually somewhere close to the efficient frontier one could draw of Twins talent under current control.

That's not the same as saying he's my choice, but he's not a crazy choice.  He's close to unique.

BTW, I mentioned last year that in August at the SABR convention, I had the opportunity to informally chat one-on-one with each of Derek and Thad, who were both very gracious with their time.  I mentioned portfolio theory to them, and it didn't seem to resonate as a tool they apply to their "investments" in players.  Top analytics guy Josh Kalk knew what I was talking about, though.

[KirbyDome89]

13 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Sure. You could. Your defense would be atrocious. If you're happy giving up a lot more runs that's fine. 

Define "a lot more runs." 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

6 hours ago, NYCTK said:

0.5 WAR 

1.0 WAR 

1.5 WAR 

These aren't really disasters, and unless you can point to players that were blocked because of these decent players, you're kind of proving my point. 

 

Pagan put up -.1 fWAR in 2022, ranking 76 out of 83 relief pitchers to throw 60 innings that season. He was mainly the 7th and 8th inning setup man and was 5th in blown saves. He pitched the third most innings in relief for the Twins. Gotta aim higher than “not the worst”. Jax led the team in relief innings at 72. There’s a slew of relievers, but Sands started to stand out more as the season wore on.
 

Simmons, your starting short stop who accumulated .9 fWAR via a 58 wRC but good fielding, over 129 games at SS ranked 29th SS in MLB. He wasn’t Gleybor Torres ranked 32 in baseball for the Yankees bad, because of course to be 32nd you need a team to have two SS accumulate more WAR. Which team performed that feat?

MN Twins! The husk of Polanco ranked 27th in fWAR accumulating 1.0 fWAR in 100 fewer games than Simmons. Need to aim higher than “not the worst”.

Joey Gallo played 111 games between 1B and Outfield in 2023 accumulating .8 fWAR ranking 203 out of 283 position players to play 300 innings that year. He sported a 103 wRC+ and a butcher in the field. Larnach, Wallner, Miranda all got the back seat. Bottom third is the best of these three data points, but still need to aim higher than “not the worst”.

[KirbyDome89]

7 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Mostly agree.  But aside from Buxton, the Twins have no one anywhere in their system with CF skills close to Bader's.  Not even in the low minors, where defense is more about potential.  Maybe they feel that's a major lack.

If you substitute Keirsey for Bader, you (probably) gain some offense but at the cost of some defense.

If you are familiar with the idea of "efficient frontiers" in investment portfolios, I see this as somewhat similar.  In a nutshell, many opportunities (whether financial investments or baseball players) are clearly better than others, but among the best choices available, it's often still a question of tradeoffs.  For example, expected return on a bond, versus its risk.  You can draw a curve of all the good opportunities (where worse ones in both dimensions lie elsewhere below the curve), and then choose the spot you want to be, on that outermost curve.

Among baseball players in general, guys like Buxton are on the efficient frontier while Bader is not.  But players like Buxton aren't available since they are under contract to other teams.  In terms of backup players who are actually available, Bader might actually belong on the efficient frontier of players the Twins could have added.  For some situations (e.g. Buxton down for a lengthy period), you might want to choose him.

Weighing against that is Bader's salary compared to Keirsey, and the inability to shuttle him down and up to St Paul as you can with Keirsey.  Efficient frontiers are hard to wrangle, when you go above 2 dimensions.  I still find it a useful way of thinking, and I see Bader as actually somewhere close to the efficient frontier one could draw of Twins talent under current control.

BTW, I mentioned last year that in August at the SABR convention, I had the opportunity to chat one-on-one with both Derek and Thad.  I mentioned portfolio theory to them, and it didn't seem to resonate as a tool they apply to their "investments" in players.  Top analytics guy Josh Kalk knew what I was talking about, though.

Appreciate the visualization. Idk if I necessarily agree with the "available players," qualifier when measuring Bader's efficiency, but FWIW I don't "hate," the signing so much as the presumed deployment. I actually agree Bader is probably the safest option, but I think he falls below the threshold based on offensive limitations and a lack of options alone; his salary is the cherry on top.

Like I said in another post, in a vacuum the signing is certainly defensible, but the issue is twofold, the season doesn't happen in a vacuum, and once you start stacking guys like Bader, France, ect on the roster and vow to hold them in sickness and in health, the Tetris board starts to clog up pretty quickly. 

[ashbury]

31 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Define "a lot more runs." 

Heh, not to beat a dead horse, but your question amounts to asking where on the efficient frontier you are willing to sit.  Or, if some choices are significantly far from the frontier.

Oh, and in your other reply to me, where you mentioned the Tetris board clogging up: now you're touching on the field of Constrained Portfolio Optimization.

Okay, I'm done. This isn't a Quant class in MBA school and I'm not qualified to teach one.  😀

[KirbyDome89]

29 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Heh, not to beat a dead horse, but your question amounts to asking where on the efficient frontier you are willing to sit.  Or, if some choices are significantly far from the frontier.

Oh, and in your other reply to me, where you mentioned the Tetris board clogging up: now you're touching on the field of Constrained Portfolio Optimization.

Okay, I'm done. This isn't a Quant class in MBA school and I'm not qualified to teach one.  😀

No doubt there was a rhetorical element to the question as what anybody is willing to stomach is subjective. 

I'm unfamiliar with the field but going on title alone I'm assuming it has something to do with maximizing output within given constraints which is (unfortunately) very applicable to this team. 

[Riverbrian]

14 hours ago, stringer bell said:

So, your big picture view is that the club provides the role players, back end starters and low leverage relievers from their system and if they spend money it should be on premium free agents and extensions? As a general plan, I really like that, but it seems that a lot of teams spend on marginal players every year, including the high dollar Yankees, Red Sox and Braves.

I think a case can be made that the Twins don't have people in their system to handle the roles that Coulombe, Bader and France might fill. However, I also think a case can be made that what the players offer is pretty marginal and not worth the expense or roster filling.

I keep going back to 2023 thinking "where would the Twins have been without Taylor, Solano and Farmer"--the same type of moves as adding Bader and France. It seems to me that on balance adding veteran players can be helpful, but there's no guarantees. In 2024, Santana was fine, but Farmer was disappointing and Margot was close to a disaster. The right guys need to be added.

Back to Ty France. Given that Miranda hasn't been able to be a good player for an entire season and given the options behind Miranda, yeah they need to raise the floor there. He's getting pretty close to a pre-arb contract without a guarantee of making the squad so they held the line and won't have a lot invested in case France continues to be below replacement level. Still, I'm tired of seeing bat-only guys come in and get 400 plate appearances and playing a lot in the field. 

 

Thanks String. You are a breath of fresh air. Your sensible post was very much needed. 

You are right... Canha will probably get a major league job somewhere. However, for counter examples...  The Tigers really haven't this year. Unless you want to call a reliever like Brebbia at 2.7 a marginal guy. The Tigers cleared the marginal guys out at the deadline and went on a winning streak with a team full of pre-arb players. With the money saved by developed pre-arb talent. The Tigers were able to play in the upper echelon of the market this off-season. They have signed Flaherty, Torres, Cobb, Kahnle and are rumored to be one of the teams still in on Bregman until the he signed with the Red Sox. Cleveland spent 12 million on Santana this year... otherwise... they are going to roll out of spring training with 17 pre-arb players on the roster. Cleveland apparently has a little more development juice than we have. Depending on what you think of Lorenzen... The Royals didn't. They re-signed Wacha for 17 million and Estevez for 11 million for the top of the bullpen. The Jays, Rangers, Rays, Giants, Phillies, Yankees, Red Sox haven't really dipped into this pool... yet. 

As for not having people in the system for these roles. Why don't we? I'm not asking that question like I have the answer... I'm asking the question... Why indeed... do we not have the people in the system? Our Farm system is like 3rd ranked. Cleveland has these people in their system. Why don't we. The players we are paying for to cover for not having the people in our system are setting pretty low bars to clear. My opinion... just an opinion is that the Auto-Filling of these types of players isn't helping. And in regards to not having the people in our system. We can make trades with other teams to address those holes. I'm not sure what hole Gasper fills but we traded for him. Don't have a CF in the system... trade for one. Instead we traded one away. If we don't have these people in their system... this front office has been in place too long to be having this particular problem. 

Where would we have been in 2023 without Taylor, Solano and Farmer? I don't know. I love what Solano did... Farmer and Taylor did play decently but both of them had to have career years at the plate to still be below average offensively.

The counter question is... Where would we have been in 2023 with Bellinger and two pre-arb players instead of those three. 

I don't know the answer to that but that is the question that I debate in my head... Are you better off with one big piece or three smaller pieces? 

[chpettit19]

10 hours ago, RpR said:

Don't want to watch what amounts to a AAA team.

There was no cheater ball all teams used it so that statement is silly.

Except you're watching a team that performs the way you're worried that "AAA team" would perform.

I meant it was a cheater ball for all offenses. But we can add that season in, too, if you want. Sky rockets the team to an average of 83 wins. You're so afraid of young players that instead you're rooting for a strategy that has resulted in a team that, on average, is 2 games above .500. And has finished below .500 in 3 of 7 seasons.

All those vets you love were rookies and young players, you know that, right? It's part of the process of developing young talent. Whether you like it or not. The players you despise are the key to every team (expect maybe the Dodgers now). You're getting the results you want to avoid yet you argue they're doing what's right. Take that fact however you want, I guess.

[Original_JB]

[Riverbrian]

15 hours ago, ashbury said:

Mostly agree.  But aside from Buxton, the Twins have no one else anywhere in their system with CF skills close to Bader's.  Not even in the low minors, where defense is more about potential.  Maybe they decided that's a major lack. (To which I would ask them why they've not developed anyone.)

If you substitute Keirsey for Bader, you (probably? maybe?) gain some offense but at the cost of some defense.

If you are familiar with the idea of "efficient frontiers" in investment portfolios, I see this as somewhat similar to comparing investments.  In a nutshell, many opportunities (whether financial investments or baseball players) are clearly better than others, but among the best choices available, it's often still a question of tradeoffs.  For example, expected return on a bond, versus its risk.  You can draw a curve of all the good opportunities (where worse ones in both dimensions lie elsewhere below the curve), and then choose the spot you want to be, on that outermost curve.

Replace Risk and Return with Offense and Defense, and hopefully the parallel is clear. (Offense, Defense, and investment Return are all positive things, while Risk is a negative attribute, so for baseball players that X-axis would be defensive ineptitude, I suppose.)

Among baseball players in general, guys like Buxton are on the efficient frontier while Bader is not.  But players like Buxton aren't available since they are under contract to other teams.  In terms of backup players who are actually available, Bader might actually belong on the efficient frontier of players the Twins could have added.  For some situations (e.g. Buxton down for a lengthy period), you might want to choose him simply because of the unique skillset.

Weighing against that is Bader's salary compared to Keirsey, and the inability to shuttle him down and up to St Paul as you can with Keirsey.  Efficient frontiers are hard to wrangle by hand, when you go above 2 dimensions, and you need a computer.  I still find it a useful way of generalized thinking, and I see Bader as actually somewhere close to the efficient frontier one could draw of Twins talent under current control.

That's not the same as saying he's my choice, but he's not a crazy choice.  He's close to unique.

BTW, I mentioned last year that in August at the SABR convention, I had the opportunity to informally chat one-on-one with each of Derek and Thad, who were both very gracious with their time.  I mentioned portfolio theory to them, and it didn't seem to resonate as a tool they apply to their "investments" in players.  Top analytics guy Josh Kalk knew what I was talking about, though.

Providing specific names are always great for these discussions but the reason I refuse to discuss specific names and instead focus on the process is.

A: I really don't know how anybody is going to perform and the front office doesn't either. The conversation dies the minute someone who also doesn't know how anybody is going to perform is already convinced that this specific name will not make it. 

B: The front office really shouldn't be limited to the choice of either Bader or Keirsay and nobody else with a whole wide world out there. If the Twins front office have failed to develop the good defense and low bar offense that Bader brings to the table. That's on the front office... you call it a stupidity tax... you are correct. This off-season could have been spent addressing this specific organizational failure to bring in the defensive CF version of Mickey Gasper. 

Anyway... Excellent post as always. When I find some time... I will read up on Efficient Frontiers. Maybe write a song about it. Frontiers will rhyme with years, beers and fears so someone with Bob Dylan skills has a chance to produce a hit. 

[NYCTK]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

This off-season could have spent addressing this specific organizational failure to bring in the defensive CF version of Mickey Gasper. 

They should have focused on bringing in the equivalent to a player that no one expects to make the major league roster? 

Yes, it's obviously preferable to develop young major league talent, no one disagrees with that, but they haven't so they need to do something else. 

Just getting mad at a free agent signing suggesting they should just be able to fill those spots internally is just ignoring the current state of the organization. 

[Charleo]

On 2/12/2025 at 6:56 AM, TwinsDr2021 said:

First off this is bad analogy, Second Falvey knew the job when he took it. You took a job saying you know the conditions then blame the owner because of those?

Thanks analogy expert.  I'm assuming you're the guy that also takes time out of your day to correct people's spelling.   Also, Falvey didn't just take this job this year.  He's had winters where he could spend.   He was able to sign Correa (twice) over the last several years, so your comment doesn't make sense either.  I would say this offseason is much different

[Riverbrian]

5 hours ago, NYCTK said:

They should have focused on bringing in the equivalent to a player that no one expects to make the major league roster? 

Yes, it's obviously preferable to develop young major league talent, no one disagrees with that, but they haven't so they need to do something else. 

Just getting mad at a free agent signing suggesting they should just be able to fill those spots internally is just ignoring the current state of the organization. 

I don't care who you or others expect to make the major league roster. And I am not going to get into a discussion about the pro's and con's of Mickey Gasper. 

I only used his name as an example of a player that the Twins went out and acquired from another organization. I really don't care what your opinion of Mickey Gasper is. I don't have an opinion on him. I used his name as an example of THIS ISN'T A DISCUSSION THAT NEEDS TO BE LIMITED TO Bader or Kiersay because the Twins reached out and acquired someone from another organization rather cheaply. And I really don't care if we have throngs of people saying that Keirsay will never make it so we got to go get Bader.  They don't know... I don't know and those two players are not the only options. Do I have to place a Jonah Hill from Moneyball GIF here. 

OK I will

AND I"M GOING TO SAY THIS ONE LAST TIME. I'm not mad at Bader. It's the process that keeps the auto-fill on. 

Go ahead and tell me that they can't fill these spots internally. Maybe they can... maybe they can't. I reject your assessments of the options and I also reject my own. you may be wrong... you may be right.

Go ahead and tell me that I'm just ignoring the state of the organization. I'm not and you are just being obtuse when you say things like that. You can't seem to grasp that this entire point being made... isn't about Bader... It's ABOUT THE STATE OF THE ORGANIZATION. But... Keep typing Martin sucks over and over and over because that aught to fix things. 

If that is indeed the state of the organization... I'm going to ask WHY is that? Because Pete Alonso isn't coming... we need to develop or die because we can't afford to acquire players developed by other organizations.

Earlier this morning I took the time to respond to an intelligent response to this discussion. I stated that Cleveland is able to fill these spots internally. Kansas City is able to fill these spots internally. Detroit is filling these spots internally. The Twins can't with the third ranked farm system? 

Yet... you are telling me that the Twins can't find a CF who can go get that baseball in CF and hit as poorly as Bader has hit over his career for 5.5 million less and you can't seem to get past... I love Bader and I don't like these other players. 

 

 

[TwinsDr2021]

15 minutes ago, Charleo said:

Thanks analogy expert.  I'm assuming you're the guy that also takes time out of your day to correct people's spelling.   Also, Falvey didn't just take this job this year.  He's had winters where he could spend.   He was able to sign Correa (twice) over the last several years, so your comment doesn't make sense either.  I would say this offseason is much different

Actually I never correct spelling or grammar, so your clever insult wasn't actually an insult, it was an assumption, and you know how those go.

Falvey became a Twin October 3 2016, the payroll in 2017 was just under 121 million with an attendance of 2 plus million,

Since then attendance has been flat or declined, the payroll the same, but jumped in 2022 (150) and 2023 (155) and then went down 2024 (129) and went back up this year a bit (136). In that time the Twins have won one playoff series and 3 playoff games. (I am not defending the owners) At some point isn't it a middle tier team's front offices job to develop players to take over positions and not just fill them with free agents, that really seems to be the issue with this team, not the lack of payroll.

 

[NYCTK]

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Yet... you are telling me that the Twins can't find a CF who can go get that baseball in CF and hit as poorly as Bader

Correct. Not without being very creative, and the Mets seem to have taken up the only real comparable option that was out there. 

Here are some other elite fielding  CF and what they hit and are making in 2025: 

Siri - 88 OPS+ - $2.4M (arb1)

Meyers - 86 OPS+ - $2.3M (arb1)

Isbel - 80 OPS+ - $1.75M (arb1)

Rafaela - 82 OPS+ - $50M/8yr

Varsho - 98 OPS+ - $8.2M

Yeah, David Stearns is better at his job than Falvey and successfully pounced on Siri before the close of November. But that's why Stearns is the highest paid executive in baseball and Falvey is likely going to get fired within a year or two by the incoming ownership. 

This fantastical idea that great fielding and average hitting CF are just out there for the Twins to pick is just not true. Twins fans, having watched Buxton with his part time playing yet still valuable presence should understand this as much as any fanbase.  

[Riverbrian]

10 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Correct. Not without being very creative, and the Mets seem to have taken up the only real comparable option that was out there. 

Here are some other elite fielding  CF and what they hit and are making in 2025: 

Siri - 88 OPS+ - $2.4M (arb1)

Meyers - 86 OPS+ - $2.3M (arb1)

Isbel - 80 OPS+ - $1.75M (arb1)

Rafaela - 82 OPS+ - $50M/8yr

Varsho - 98 OPS+ - $8.2M

Yeah, David Stearns is better at his job than Falvey and successfully pounced on Siri before the close of November. But that's why Stearns is the highest paid executive in baseball and Falvey is likely going to get fired within a year or two by the incoming ownership. 

This fantastical idea that great fielding and average hitting CF are just out there for the Twins to pick is just not true. Twins fans, having watched Buxton with his part time playing yet still valuable presence should understand this as much as any fanbase.  

I'm currently looking for a GIF that has Jonah Hill sitting on that couch in the movie Moneyball that says

"Are these my only 7 options" 

I'm requesting a little help from the TD community. I don't have the skill but I'll bet someone in this community could create one so I can reply with it. 

This fantastical idea that great fielding and average hitting CF are just out there for the Twins to pick is just not true. 

Again... you are not understanding what I and others are saying. And you are also assuming that I don't understand the market prices. Stop assuming that I don't understand the market prices and you won't waste your time coming up a list of 5 players to try to convince me of something that I'm not saying.  

BTW... On your list... 3 out of the 5 you came up with were developed by their organizations that's how far off the mark you are... you don't even realize that you are making our points when you trying so damn hard to refute our points. 

Here's another thing. There are multiple people that you are fighting here... You probably shouldn't put them all into a group that you call Bader Haters because everyone is coming from different places. That way I don't have to constantly say... I don't hate Bader when you throw me into that group. Maybe then you don't have to tell someone that Emma isn't getting blocked to someone who knows that Emma isn't going to be blocked.  

I can guarantee you that Chia Pet doesn't think Emma is going to get blocked. Trust me... Chia Pet understands that Emma will be called up in 2025 when injuries happen. Chia Pet would like to see Emma break camp with the club. Chia Pet and I are pretty closely aligned on our thinking and even I'm not so sure that Emma should break camp with the club... but I understand where he is coming from because... well... the rest is for you to figure out. Enough real estate has been typed on this subject and you haven't left the porch.     

 

 

 

[NYCTK]

30 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm currently looking for a GIF that has Jonah Hill sitting on that couch in the movie Moneyball that says

"Are these my only 7 options" 

I'm requesting a little help from the TD community. I don't have the skill but I'll bet someone in this community could create one so I can reply with it. 

This fantastical idea that great fielding and average hitting CF are just out there for the Twins to pick is just not true. 

Again... you are not understanding what I and others are saying. And you are also assuming that I don't understand the market prices. Stop assuming that I don't understand the market prices and you won't waste your time coming up a list of 5 players to try to convince me of something that I'm not saying.  

BTW... On your list... 3 out of the 5 you came up with were developed by their organizations that's how far off the mark you are... you don't even realize that you are making our points when you trying so damn hard to refute our points. 

Here's another thing. There are multiple people that you are fighting here... You probably shouldn't put them all into a group that you call Bader Haters because everyone is coming from different places. That way I don't have to constantly say... I don't hate Bader when you throw me into that group. Maybe then you don't have to tell someone that Emma isn't getting blocked to someone who knows that Emma isn't going to be blocked.  

I can guarantee you that Chia Pet doesn't think Emma is going to get blocked. Trust me... Chia Pet understands that Emma will be called up in 2025 when injuries happen. Chia Pet would like to see Emma break camp with the club. Chia Pet and I are pretty closely aligned on our thinking and even I'm not so sure that Emma should break camp with the club... but I understand where he is coming from because... well... the rest is for you to figure out. Enough real estate has been typed on this subject and you haven't left the porch.     

 

 

 

Your points are just incredibly useless (relating to the 2025 Twins) then. Just, like, develop them. 

Wow. Genius. Why didn't anyone else ever think of this... 

Insert the photo of Paris Hilton telling others to just stop being poor. 

[ashbury]

37 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm currently looking for a GIF that has Jonah Hill sitting on that couch in the movie Moneyball that says

"Are these my only 7 options" 

I'm requesting a little help from the TD community. I don't have the skill but I'll bet someone in this community could create one so I can reply with it.

Literal minded TD poster replies literally:

[ashbury]

19 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Your points are just incredibly useless (relating to the 2025 Twins) then. Just, like, develop them. 

Wow. Genius. Why didn't anyone else ever think of this... 

Insert the photo of Paris Hilton telling others to just stop being poor.