What is the Twins strategy this season?

[stringer bell]

I don't like the way things are going for my favorite team. I am not pleased with Ryan Doumit playing right field and I dislike intensely seeing Jamie Carroll serve as the leadoff hitter. I am displeased with seeing marginal talent start games for the Twins while Kyle Gibson toils in AAA. Several of the guys I identified as keys to the success or failure of this team aren't playing much--specifically right now Chris Parmelee and Trevor Plouffe, who has been disabled by concussion symptoms and then a sore calf--while veteran trade bait and minor league journeymen keep playing.

 

This club isn't going to win anything this year. It has been apparent since spring training that there isn't enough pitching to challenge legitimate major league teams. They have to make moves now, both on the field and off, that help them to be better in 2014 and contend at least by 2015. So, what the **** is going on?

 

I will present the most optimistic and Twins friendly idea first: They are showcasing their veterans for the trade deadline, they are committed to Aaron Hicks and Oswaldo Arcia as cornerstones of their future, and they are trying to find out about position players and pitchers who will get their chances to prove their worth.

 

Another theory: The Twins think they can contend so they are putting the best they have right now and playing them. Final theory: It is all about reducing payroll. The team will purge all salaries, other than Joe Mauer. They will build with low-paid young players and Joe Mauer.

 

I think it is actually a little of all three--they are building for the future, but keeping a toe in the water for now because they aren't the Marlins or Astros. Reducing payroll is a benefit of rebuilding, so they are playing veterans with the hope of moving many or most of them by July 31.

 

Is there any part of the Twins strategy that you support? Is there a strategy? I am beginning to believe 90 losses is again likely and not nearly enough talent for the future gets tested and approved in this lost season.

[howieramone1406390264]

I support Terry Ryan and the Twins way of doing business. BA wrote an article sometime ago that it takes a mid-market team a minimum of 5 years to rebuild. We're ahead of the curve, if for no other reason, because of Buxton and Sano.

[darin617]

Jamie Carrol is only playing so they can hope he starts to hit and someone will be willing to give the Twins more than just a PTBNL or cash via trade. But who are they fooling what could they get for a veteran utility infielder? I would hate to say they should be happy if a team would just take the contract.

[greengoblinrulz]

Problem is there is no actual organizational thought process goin on. Its throw it against the wall & see if it sticks.

Lot of the problem has to do with gardy & no contract. Is he in it to see the future, so keep playing the prospects.....or does he need to avoid another 90 loss season to keep his job, hence playing the vets to win.

[jokin]

Jamie Carrol is only playing so they can hope he starts to hit and someone will be willing to give the Twins more than just a PTBNL or cash via trade. But who are they fooling what could they get for a veteran utility infielder? I would hate to say they should be happy if a team would just take the contract.

 

Jamie Carrol is only playing and batting leadoff because the Twins have left themselves without any alternatives. Plouffe is back tomorrow and Carroll is back on the bench and Dozier or Clete Thomas are dubiously moved into the leadoff spot- in which in short order, they are in turn crushed down, and Carroll is reinstated in the leadoff spot.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[PseudoSABR]

they are playing veterans with the hope of moving many or most of them by July 31.

This (or, let's hope). No reason to bench expensive veterans in favor of younger, maybe (gulp, likely) marginally talented guys. But we will see. I won't hold my breath. I really hope we see two of Doumit, Morneau, Willingham get traded--keeping one of the latter two for next year (a qualifying offer for Morneau if needed/deserved). If we can trade Carroll for anything at all, I'll be smitten.

[twinstalker]

I support Terry Ryan and the Twins way of doing business. BA wrote an article sometime ago that it takes a mid-market team a minimum of 5 years to rebuild. We're ahead of the curve, if for no other reason, because of Buxton and Sano.

 

Terry Ryan and the Twins have done little right, so I don't know where this faith is coming from. They had an outstanding basis for a championship team and their way of doing business minimized the production over the course of the last twelve years with their personnel moves and their retention of a manager who needlessly loses them 5-8 games a year with his game strategy.

 

Perhaps Terry Ryan and the Twins realize now that the goal is a championship not just winning a division, though that could just be because Detroit is for real and looks to stay that way. As with Joe Mauer, the Twins drafted the right guy in Buxton, and so kudos in both instances (and with signing Sano), but nothing about Twins operations should provide excess optimism vis a vis the current talent level.

[drjim]

Outside of Parmelee playing and Gibson not up I don't have a huge problem. And each of these will be remedied soon enough.

[nicksaviking]

I support Terry Ryan and the Twins way of doing business. BA wrote an article sometime ago that it takes a mid-market team a minimum of 5 years to rebuild. We're ahead of the curve, if for no other reason, because of Buxton and Sano.

 

They are behind the curve at this point because they started the rebuild a year and a half later than they should have.

[bird]

Terry Ryan and the Twins have done little right, so I don't know where this faith is coming from. They had an outstanding basis for a championship team and their way of doing business minimized the production over the course of the last twelve years with their personnel moves and their retention of a manager who needlessly loses them 5-8 games a year with his game strategy

 

Perhaps Terry Ryan and the Twins realize now that the goal is a championship not just winning a division, though that could just be because Detroit is for real and looks to stay that way. As with Joe Mauer, the Twins drafted the right guy in Buxton, and so kudos in both instances (and with signing Sano), but nothing about Twins operations should provide excess optimism vis a vis the current talent level.

 

Really? I mean really?

[bird]

They are behind the curve at this point because they started the rebuild a year and a half later than they should have.

 

Starting earlier would've been one way to skin the cat, but do you believe today's results, from a W-L perspective, would be much different? I think they're ahead of the rebuilding curve. Well ahead actually.

 

 

I could very easily be mistaken about this, because we won't know until we know. The jury is still out on Parmelee, Plouffe, Hicks, Dozier, Deduno, Hendriks, and a couple other guys. The next wave is still two years away from being a force, and we won't know who will dissappoint and who will come through among that group of Sano, Rosario, Gibson, Arcia, Buxton, Pinto, Wimmers, Berrios....

 

I'm optimistic. And patient. But, if Ryan fails to pull the trigger on a front-of-the-rotation starter next off-season, I'll be very disheartened. He didn't have viable options last winter, and the timing for making a big splash wasn't in place. Next winter is different.

[Mike Sixel]

Well, since we are not inside Gardy's head, we don't know why he is starting Doumit and not Parmalee. It could be one of several reasons. Strategically, the only reason to start him is to build up his trade value, so I hope that is why. But what helps the team more, learning more about Parmalee and his ability to hit MLB ball, or getting a marginal prospect for Doumit? That's the question Ryan should be asking himself. I'm not sure the question matters much, as I expect Doumit returns little in trade, and I expect Parmalee is a backup player t best.

 

I won't add to the Gibson discussion, other than to say I have no idea what they are doing with him.

[nicksaviking]

How many weeks have you been a Twins fan?

 

Really? I mean really?

 

Anyone want to elucidate? Did he say something that hasn't been said a million times on this site? I disagree with the last line as I don't think the talent level in the minors has ever been stronger, and as much as I criticize Gardenhire I don't think he loses that many games a year but I don't think most of his statements are without a reasonable debate.

[Kwak]

I've been a Twins fan from '61--and I certainly don't need a lecture about loyalty. There have been some very valid points made about the lack of success in player development through the many years of "The Twins Way". Thursday's and Friday's games were clear examples of the follies of "The Twins Way"--PtoC (renamed "attacking the strikezone") vs pitching--Thursday's game; and Friday's game: power hitting and acquiring top talent through free agency. Diamond was effective because of the extremely generous "outside corner" from the HP umpire (Porcello benefited even more--but that's another story) until he had to face a real power hitter with baserunners. Yeah, we all saw the result. Placing "blind faith" in a strategy that failed in the millenial decade, by the same people, and then scolding people about loyalty--un uhh.

I think stringerbell has just awoken to the reality that MLB is a business and not a sport and is bemoaning that the Twins have decided to use a business plan of minimal payroll (will take a bit longer to get there) to minimize risk and maximize profit as opposed to fielding the most competitive team. Lots of spin (Kool-Aid) is used to maintain interest in the team and "keep the money coming".

[nicksaviking]

 

 

 

I'm optimistic. And patient. But, if Ryan fails to pull the trigger on a front-of-the-rotation starter next off-season, I'll be very disheartened. He didn't have viable options last winter, and the timing for making a big splash wasn't in place. Next winter is different.

 

I appreciate that you are willing to call out Ryan if he fails to perform as expected but next year's free agent pitching class looks pretty sketchy. There are some big names but they all seem to have fallen off a cliff production-wise.

[Mike Sixel]

For fun, I'll just add that I've been a fan since 1970......so ya, this isn't about loyalty or "the right way to be a fan", not for some of us.

[silverslugger]

Parmelee should be getting every at bat possible versus right handed pitching. I can see sitting him some against tough lefies or pinch-hitting for him against a lefty late in the game. Trouble is, who is right-handed on the bench that you would pinch-hit for him. Doumit, if you trust his glove in right in late innings and IF you still had someone else to trot out to right in the VERY unlikely event that he had to replace Mauer behind the plate.

 

Doumits trade value is what it is. He's an established major leaguer. The 150 or so at bats he'll get this year in May and June prior to the deadline really won't really change his trade value at all.

[nicksaviking]

It might sound strange, but Doumit's trade value may be at an all-time high simply because I don't think he's ever had a stretch of prolonged health as he has had since he came to Minnesota.

[silverslugger]

It might sound strange, but Doumit's trade value may be at an all-time high simply because I don't think he's ever had a stretch of prolonged health as he has had since he came to Minnesota.

 

Agree. The question is, just how high is that trade value and is it worth keeping Doumit on the roster as the backup catcher if he's going to constantly take at bats away from Parmelee. This is one area where Ryan can certainly dictate how Gardy fills out his everyday lineup. We definitely seem to have a backup Doumit waiting in the wings in Herrmann.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm optimistic. And patient. But, if Ryan fails to pull the trigger on a front-of-the-rotation starter next off-season, I'll be very disheartened. He didn't have viable options last winter, and the timing for making a big splash wasn't in place. Next winter is different.

 

Well I hope you and others do eventually hold this team accountable for not using resources, but what about the next FA group is any better? Remember at this time last year the 2013 FA group was to include Hamels and Cain along with Sanchez and Grienke. Continuing to put eggs into future unknown baskets just seems like chasing ghosts rather than any real strategy.

[Danchat]

I just don't understand why Doumit is playing RF. WHY? Both him and Parmelee are batting .225 and Parm is the long term option. Why sit him for 4 games in a row?!

Doumit is much more clutch, which tells me Gardy cares about winning. (Which he should or his job is gone...) This team needs to focus on deciding on Dozier, Parm, Florimon, Plouffe, and etc. Not trotting out Doumit into RF.

[bird]

Anyone want to elucidate? Did he say something that hasn't been said a million times on this site? I disagree with the last line as I don't think the talent level in the minors has ever been stronger, and as much as I criticize Gardenhire I don't think he loses that many games a year but I don't think most of his statements are without a reasonable debate.

 

Sorry, Nick, I didn't think it was necessary. His first sentence alone was cause for disbelief, but your points are elucidation enough.

[bird]

Well I hope you and others do eventually hold this team accountable for not using resources, but what about the next FA group is any better? Remember at this time last year the 2013 FA group was to include Hamels and Cain along with Sanchez and Grienke. Continuing to put eggs into future unknown baskets just seems like chasing ghosts rather than any real strategy.

 

Good point. I was ignorant enough this past winter to think that, through FA and maybe a trade, we'd find three pitchers who met or exceeded the "Diamond Standard", and I viewed Scott Diamond as a#3-4 starer on a contender, not the #2-3 guy he often was descried to be by other posters. That didn't happen, probably as a result of a combination of factors, including Ryan's failing to get it done, a weak pool, and some bad luck.

 

I agree, I don't like relying on a FA pickup to plug such an important hole as a #2-3 starter, but what are the realistic choices for this team? We all want the quickst fix possible.

[TheLeviathan]

I agree, I don't like relying on a FA pickup to plug such an important hole as a #2-3 starter, but what are the realistic choices for this team? We all want the quickst fix possible.

 

None, I agree, but I felt the same about Sanchez. I can understand waiting but I just don't accept last years FA class was so bad it didn't warrant consideration. I think it was fairly average one, so I don't buy arguments settled around the idea of "wait for a better one"

[stringer bell]

After two straight disappointing losing seasons, the Twins are rebuilding, but they won't admit it. I guess I understand why--new stadium and $23M catcher--but the presence of Mauer is why they aren't totally tearing the team up and playing eight rookies (I think). The club was very good in 2010 (until the postseason) and destroyed by injuries in 2011, compounded by a few of the most regrettable transactions in Twins' history. I don't hate the shrinking of the payroll, in and of itself, and I'm not a lifelong fan of some of the guys I want to see playing. I fail to see consistency in some of the Twins' moves this year. I'm not sure if Gardy is following orders by playing who he is playing or if he really thinks this is the best chance for him to keep his job. Playing Jamie Carroll at third (and leading off), Ryan Doumit in right and continuing with a powerless Justin Morneau just isn't rebuilding.

 

I want to see Kyle Gibson get more than a cup of coffee for the Twins this year. I want to know about all of the players in their first full year of starting and I would like to see the dead wood cleared out of 40 man roster.

[John Bonnes]

A lot of this thread seems to be driven by the playing time of Parmelee thus far. There are some other long-standing gripes being raised, but they're probably better addressed in other threads, so I'll stick with that one. I think I'm one of Parmelee's biggest supporters so far, so here's my take and why I'm having trouble getting upset about it.

 

Doumit was incredibly hot coming into this week - so hot that he was moved to 3rd in the order - and I couldn't disagree with it. With Doumit and Arcia (who, I think, nobody has any problem with getting time) and Morneau and Willingham and Mauer - there is no place for Parmelee unless you want to see him lunging around center field. It's that simple.

 

Gardy could do a couple things - he could give one of the other guys a night off occasionally, but here's the thing: Parmelee hasn't exactly forced the issue. He's been - at best - mediocre and has been KILLING them in clutch situations (with a good chunk of bad luck mixed in, I would claim). His WPA is the 2nd lowest on the lineup at -1.33, just above Aaron Hicks.

 

Before he was benefiting from Doumit's slump, but Doumit put that to bed. Now that Doumit is cooling off a bit (god is he a streaky player), I think Parm will get some more opportunities. If not, I don't really see why he's on the roster at this point. Is he out of options? I'm sure he was a candidate to be sent down when Plouffe came up.

 

If I had to choose a guy for Parm to take the place of, it would be Willingham right now. He's not healthy. He's not productive. I'd like to seem him get two weeks or so to get his back or knees or whatever better, hand Arcia LF, put Doumit at DH and give Parm another 2 weeks to find himself. But that not be managerially possible.

[stringer bell]

I buy most of what you're saying John. Parmelee, so far, just hasn't hit enough to justify continued playing time. I guess my gripe is putting Doumit in right has shown itself to be costly. I just read that Hammer is having knee issues necessitating that he DH, so if the formerly hot Doumit was to be in the lineup it would have to be in the outfield. Compounding all of this is the insistence of Morneau to play every day and at first base. I wonder if Morneau could or should be DLed and that an ongoing injury has robbed him of his power.

 

BTW John, how and why did you change the name of this thread? I actually typed in four asterisks, not profanity.

[johnnydakota]

I support Terry Ryan and the Twins way of doing business. BA wrote an article sometime ago that it takes a mid-market team a minimum of 5 years to rebuild. We're ahead of the curve, if for no other reason, because of Buxton and Sano.

 

 

Support , isint that what a jock strap is for?

Once again it isint because of , it is dispite of to be more acurate

[johnnydakota]

I appreciate that you are willing to call out Ryan if he fails to perform as expected but next year's free agent pitching class looks pretty sketchy. There are some big names but they all seem to have fallen off a cliff production-wise.

 

To bad there wasnt a Shields to trade for or a Santana or maybe a free agent like Sanchez this year. But next year they will have more money from there TV contract so ...um so um so they will have extra money? hmmm isint 52% of 213 million ,like 30 million more then we spent this year? oh yeah , they dont care, just hire another brinks truck and forget about a front of a rotation pitcher

[jokin]

Well I hope you and others do eventually hold this team accountable for not using resources, but what about the next FA group is any better? Remember at this time last year the 2013 FA group was to include Hamels and Cain along with Sanchez and Grienke. Continuing to put eggs into future unknown baskets just seems like chasing ghosts rather than any real strategy.

 

 

Good point. I was ignorant enough this past winter to think that, through FA and maybe a trade, we'd find three pitchers who met or exceeded the "Diamond Standard", and I viewed Scott Diamond as a#3-4 starer on a contender, not the #2-3 guy he often was descried to be by other posters. That didn't happen, probably as a result of a combination of factors, including Ryan's failing to get it done, a weak pool, and some bad luck.

 

I agree, I don't like relying on a FA pickup to plug such an important hole as a #2-3 starter, but what are the realistic choices for this team? We all want the quickst fix possible.

 

Bird, you assured us that you would be very disappointed and be willing to criticize the Twins FO if they failed to deliver in the offseason. Of the factors you mentioned, only one is very meaningful. There has been plenty of room in the payroll in the past 2 offseasons to add quality arms to the starting rotation and the bank didn't have to be broken to do so, weak pools and bad luck have had nothing to do with it.