What is the Twins strategy this season?

[johnnydakota]

 

Did you call Andrew Friedman to determine if he would accept the deal of Span, Gibson, Harrison and Michaels for James Shields?

 

We know that Friedman liked Myers, Odorizzi and Montogmery from the Royals.

 

Its easy to say the Twins should have traded so in so for so in so... But it takes two teams to agree to a deal because they have that freewill thing like everyone else.

And the main point was to get an Ace...Something we havent had in years.....Some thing every legit team needs. Can anyone here tell me if we had signed Sanchez and traded for Shields, we would not have been the pre season favorites to over take Detroit? Can anyone say that our boards wouldnt be lit up with positive remarks, move ticket sales ? Once again penny pinching front office scred the pooch , wich is becoming all to easilt acceptible by the masses

[johnnydakota]

Hmm. The Rays take the #4 prospect in baseball or a decent CF and a guy coming off TJ surgery.

 

Which would you choose?

 

Trade speculation is completely pointless anyway but it's particularly pointless if you're not going to come up with a package that actually beats the offer the team received and took from another team.

 

And how does trading Span and Gibson for Shields make this team better? You've lost good production in CF, future production in the rotation, and gained a very good pitcher in return. That's not much better than a wash and could be an actual performance decline as soon as next season.

 

On the other hand, the Twins currently have Gibson and Meyer in trade for Span, which does make them a significantly better team moving forward.

 

But that doesn't fit in with the cheap money-miser theory so it doesn't count.

 

And what did we get for him? A handfull of magic beans....

[Brock Beauchamp]

ok maybe we needed to add another ,prospect, but remember K.C. got more then just Shields

 

Stacking more mediocrity onto the pile does not trump the offer of a #4 prospect. I wish baseball fans would realize this at some point.

 

Adding more fertilizer to the pile does not make it worth more than gold just because it weighs more.

[Riverbrian]

 

ok maybe we needed to add another ,prospect, but remember K.C. got more then just Shields

 

I don't know. I find it hard to get the posters on Twins Daily to agree on the value of Trevor Plouffe for example.

 

I can't assume that Friedman thinks like I do or like you do... or assume that Terry Ryan thinks exactly like every GM in baseball.

 

Freewill is tough to navigate.

[Brock Beauchamp]

And what did we get for him? A handfull of magic beans....

 

You mean the 23 year old pitcher who is absolutely lighting up AA and could see the rotation later this season if he comes back from his shoulder soreness.

 

Just awful. It makes way more sense to trade for a guy who is expensive right now, whose contract is finished in 15 months, and will almost surely be gone by the time Sano/Buxton/Hicks/Arcia/Rosario are productive.

 

I hate defending the front office right now but some people are so bloody unreasonable that it has to be done.

[johnnydakota]

Stacking more mediocrity onto the pile does not trump the offer of a #4 prospect. I wish baseball fans would realize this at some point.

 

Adding more fertilizer to the pile does not make it worth more than gold just because it weighs more.

 

And a prospect is just that, A prospect , Span has Value, he is proven ....you dont have to add water and watch him grow ,like the rest of the magic beans

[johnnydakota]

You mean the 23 year old pitcher who is absolutely lighting up AA and could see the rotation later this season if he comes back from his shoulder soreness.

 

Just awful. It makes way more sense to trade for a guy who is expensive right now, whose contract is finished in 15 months, and will almost surely be gone by the time Sano/Buxton/Hicks/Arcia/Rosario are productive.

 

Yes that 1 , that lights out pitcher , who is now on the D.L , the 1 who maybe next year gets an invite to spring training, the same guy who maybe has additinal shoulder or arm problems before he gets to the major leaques, if he ever does....thats why they call them prospects , not locks cause stuff happens

[Brock Beauchamp]

And a prospect is just that, A prospect , Span has Value, he is proven ....you dont have to add water and watch him grow ,like the rest of the magic beans

 

And Alex Meyer has value. Just because you refuse to acknowledge that does not make it true.

 

After all, The Rays took Myers, a "magic bean", in trade for Shields.

 

Except that Myers' "magic bean" was more valuable than anything the Twins had to offer at the time.

 

Your logic is... flawed, to put it nicely.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yes that 1 , that lights out pitcher , who is now on the D.L , the 1 who maybe next year gets an invite to spring training, the same guy who maybe has additinal shoulder or arm problems before he gets to the major leaques, if he ever does....thats why they call them prospects , not locks cause stuff happens

 

So you're saying that the Twins should trade only for players that can help them right now, despite that being the most insane strategy ever employed by a front office and one that has failed more times than anyone can count.

 

Fantastic.

[Riverbrian]

And the main point was to get an Ace...Something we havent had in years.....Some thing every legit team needs. Can anyone here tell me if we had signed Sanchez and traded for Shields, we would not have been the pre season favorites to over take Detroit? Can anyone say that our boards wouldnt be lit up with positive remarks, move ticket sales ? Once again penny pinching front office scred the pooch , wich is becoming all to easilt acceptible by the masses

 

1. An Ace is something that everyone wants as well. That drives up the price it takes to trade for one.

2. I think TD would have lit up with Negative remarks if we traded Sano for Shields.

3. If we signed Sanchez... Who knows... He looks like a nice signing for Detroit but we still have to have pitchers beyond him and we still have to hit the ball and do all that other stuff.

4. Trading for Shields and Signing Sanchez guarantees nothing for 2013. Just like Signing Greinke and Ryu while trading for A-Gon, Crawford and Hanley didnt guarantee anything for the Dodgers.

[Blackjack]

I don't mind being opposed to your constant misery but this isn't about "sides". I think we all want the Twins to win, but we have some different opinions on how to get there.

 

And I do hold the team accountable. Even though I generally agree with their plan and have confidence in Terry Ryan, I spend much less on the product than I would if they were a better team. That hurts much more than all the comments on message boards combined.

 

That should have been "constant misery, bitching, and whining". I think that some of the posters have a big chunk of smelly cheese beside their keyboard to go with their perpetual whine.

 

 

I spend much less on the product than I would if they were a better team.

 

You're 100% correct here, I find myself not paying as much attention to the Twins, not listening, and definitely not going to Target Field and buying $8 beers and $5 hotdogs. Terry Ryan and the Pohlads realize that too, that if they don't put a winning product on the field their attendance will go down just like it has in other new stadiums with losing teams so when posters say "the Pohlads don't care about winning" they're just wrong - and should reach for another chunk of cheese to go with their whine.

[johnnydakota]

You mean the 23 year old pitcher who is absolutely lighting up AA and could see the rotation later this season if he comes back from his shoulder soreness.

 

Just awful. It makes way more sense to trade for a guy who is expensive right now, whose contract is finished in 15 months, and will almost surely be gone by the time Sano/Buxton/Hicks/Arcia/Rosario are productive.

 

I hate defending the front office right now but some people are so bloody unreasonable that it has to be done.

 

Yup 2 years of having an Ace, and then we would have to either pay him or let him go.

With all the kids coming up and payroll down ,we should have plenty of money to keep him if he is still the pitcher he was when we accuired him ....But i deferre to your knowledge, we got 4 kids with bright futures ,and most are sure they will all be better then Shields.

[johnnydakota]

So you're saying that the Twins should trade only for players that can help them right now, despite that being the most insane strategy ever employed by a front office and one that has failed more times than anyone can count.

 

Fantastic.

Im saying why not both? Isnt that how quality teams do it? they get quality prospects and still get quality free agents?

[johnnydakota]

And Alex Meyer has value. Just because you refuse to acknowledge that does not make it true.

 

After all, The Rays took Myers, a "magic bean", in trade for Shields.

 

Except that Myers' "magic bean" was more valuable than anything the Twins had to offer at the time.

 

Your logic is... flawed, to put it nicely.

 

I do not refuse to believe our prospects dont have value, but i refuse to believe evey kid coming up is going to be HOF, Allstars. Do i hope they will be ? Of course i do ,All Twins fans should, but Proven is proven , and a prospect is just that , a prospect

[Brock Beauchamp]

Im saying why not both? Isnt that how quality teams do it? they get quality prospects and still get quality free agents?

 

Quality free agents are a separate argument entirely. Free agents don't require you to loot the farm, a farm that you are relying on to compete in the future.

 

You're arguing over a trade. A trade that would seriously cripple the long-term success of this franchise for a few wins today.

[jokin]

I don't mind being opposed to your constant misery but this isn't about "sides". I think we all want the Twins to win, but we have some different opinions on how to get there.

 

And I do hold the team accountable. Even though I generally agree with their plan and have confidence in Terry Ryan, I spend much less on the product than I would if they were a better team. That hurts much more than all the comments on message boards combined.

 

You and I showed them, didn't we...?

 

I dropped my season tickets long ago... right when they determined that they would rather Kill the Franchise for Profit, through legal means, if necessary- selfishly preferring that route over selling the club to interests that actually would have put paramount importance on returning the Twins to the winners circle.

[jokin]

That should have been "constant misery, bitching, and whining". I think that some of the posters have a big chunk of smelly cheese beside their keyboard to go with their perpetual whine.

 

 

 

 

You're 100% correct here, I find myself not paying as much attention to the Twins, not listening, and definitely not going to Target Field and buying $8 beers and $5 hotdogs. Terry Ryan and the Pohlads realize that too, that if they don't put a winning product on the field their attendance will go down just like it has in other new stadiums with losing teams so when posters say "the Pohlads don't care about winning" they're just wrong - and should reach for another chunk of cheese to go with their whine.

 

I guess you showed them, too.

 

And please, rather than make a declarative statement, present evidence why those who disagree are wrong. I'll wait.......

[diehardtwinsfan]

Yup 2 years of having an Ace, and then we would have to either pay him or let him go.

With all the kids coming up and payroll down ,we should have plenty of money to keep him if he is still the pitcher he was when we accuired him ....But i deferre to your knowledge, we got 4 kids with bright futures ,and most are sure they will all be better then Shields.

 

How old is Sheilds, and how long do you think he's going to be pitching at a high level?

[jokin]

Hmm. The Rays take the #4 prospect in baseball or a decent CF and a guy coming off TJ surgery.

 

Which would you choose?

 

Trade speculation is completely pointless anyway but it's particularly pointless if you're not going to come up with a package that actually beats the offer the team received and took from another team.

 

And how does trading Span and Gibson for Shields make this team better? You've lost good production in CF, future production in the rotation, and gained a very good pitcher in return. That's not much better than a wash and could be an actual performance decline as soon as next season.

 

On the other hand, the Twins currently have Gibson and Meyer in trade for Span, which does make them a significantly better team moving forward.

 

But that doesn't fit in with the cheap money-miser theory so it doesn't count.

 

Acquiring James Shields and giving him an extension to 2018, through age 36, should have been a team priority. Gibson and Meyer are speculation at this point, it's inaccurate to say today, that we know, for sure, that having these 2 instead of Shields "does" make the team significantly better moving forward

[jokin]

How old is Sheilds, and how long do you think he's going to be pitching at a high level?

 

Shields has shown no signs of a drop-off, while there's always risk involved, there's no reason to assume that he can't pitch effectively to age 36 (2018). It's certainly yet to be proven that Gibson or Meyer will match Shields career numbers.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Acquiring James Shields and giving him an extension to 2018, through age 36, should have been a team priority. Gibson and Meyer are speculation at this point, it's inaccurate to say today, that we know, for sure, that having these 2 instead of Shields "does" make the team significantly better moving forward

 

I agree that acquiring Shields should have been a priority. However, I acknowledge that it should have stopped being a priority the moment the Royals offered Myers. Once Myers was on the table, you chuckle to yourself and mutter "have fun with that, morons" as you step away from the table.

 

To compete with the Royals' offer, it would have required Sano and Gibson.

 

You can't tell me with a straight face that is a good deal for the Twins. Shields is five years past the typical prime season of a player. That would be a lop-sided trade of epic proportions that would royally screw the franchise for years.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Shields has shown no signs of a drop-off, while there's always risk involved, there's no reason to assume that he can't pitch effectively to age 36 (2018). It's certainly yet to be proven that Gibson or Meyer will match Shields career numbers.

 

What about taking one of those guys and adding Sano to the trade?

 

Because that's what it would have taken for the Rays to pass up the golden goose offered by the Royals.

[jokin]

1. An Ace is something that everyone wants as well. That drives up the price it takes to trade for one.

2. I think TD would have lit up with Negative remarks if we traded Sano for Shields.

3. If we signed Sanchez... Who knows... He looks like a nice signing for Detroit but we still have to have pitchers beyond him and we still have to hit the ball and do all that other stuff.

4. Trading for Shields and Signing Sanchez guarantees nothing for 2013. Just like Signing Greinke and Ryu while trading for A-Gon, Crawford and Hanley didnt guarantee anything for the Dodgers.

 

Can I humbly suggest that #2 is just your opinion. While I accept that may very well have happened, acquiring a front-line starter has to take precedence over anything else- IMO, it clearly would have been painful, but the right thing to do. Starting pitching at the highest quality level is the ultimate game changer in winning in the playoffs. Acquiring the position player pieces to fit around the quality pitching is far easier to accomplish through the draft or FA- and no matter how good the position players might be, there just isn't as much differential impact between a top- and above average- position player- as there is between an Ace pitcher and the dregs that the Twins have been employing in the past since the departure of Santana and currently are sporting in the rotation.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Can I humbly suggest that #2 is just your opinion. While I accept that may very well have happened, acquiring a front-line starter has to take precedence over anything else- IMO, it clearly would have been painful, but the right thing to do. Starting pitching at the highest quality level is the ultimate game changer in winning in the playoffs. Acquiring the position player pieces to fit around the quality pitching is far easier to accomplish through the draft or FA- and no matter how good the position players might be, their just isn't as much differential impact between a top- and above average- position player- as there is between an Ace pitcher and the dregs that the Twins have been employing in the past since the departure of Santana and currently are sporting in the rotation.

 

Not only would this board have erupted in outrage, nearly every scout and baseball analyst on the planet would have made the Twins the laughing stock of baseball over it.

 

Sano and Gibson for Shields is a dumb, dumb, dumb trade no matter how you look at it. If someone else is willing to offer the moon for a good - not great - player, you do not retaliate with an offer for the moon and Mars. You let them make that mistake and run like hell in the other direction.

[johnnydakota]

Me bad , i ment to say trading for quality players who are proven

[johnnydakota]

How old is Sheilds, and how long do you think he's going to be pitching at a high level?

 

Hopefully long enough to pass the torch to a qualified replacement ....

[Shane Wahl]

For the record, I would prefer to have Wil Myers for the next 6 years than James Shields. The Royals are just so, so sad.

 

Anyway, this thread is about a million different things. First, I hope that Willingham is being straight with the Twins about his injury/injuries. I think I would just like a 15-day DL stint right now, get it taken care of in June, and let him play again full-time in July in order to hopefully encourage some teams with players waiting to turn into pumpkins (looking at you N.Y. Yankees) to offer something for him.

 

Then Parm can play. Now, here is the issue. I am not sure about his defense . . . at first base. He certainly isn't built like a first baseman.

 

And offensively . . . I have big doubts that he is ever going to produce like a top 1/2 first baseman. His peak may be Lyle Overbay, who is a fine player and is now one of those players pushed into action by the Yankees (Wells, Overbay, Hafner . . . what the hell?), but there is a limitation there.

[johnnydakota]

I agree that acquiring Shields should have been a priority. However, I acknowledge that it should have stopped being a priority the moment the Royals offered Myers. Once Myers was on the table, you chuckle to yourself and mutter "have fun with that, morons" as you step away from the table.

 

To compete with the Royals' offer, it would have required Sano and Gibson.

 

You can't tell me with a straight face that is a good deal for the Twins. Shields is five years past the typical prime season of a player. That would be a lop-sided trade of epic proportions that would royally screw the franchise for years.

 

I agree we dont give up Sano or a few other non touchables, But if we dont make a call , how do we know we cant make a trade? Didnt Tampa lose there starting CF? So wouldnt a proven quality leadoff hitting above average defensively Span who has a team friendly contract , not make a good 1st piece of the trade, adding in a Gibson ,and then go from there, Maybe there G.M says Sano , maybe he says harrison and and and , And we decide those other 3 players are expendible.

[jokin]

I agree that acquiring Shields should have been a priority. However, I acknowledge that it should have stopped being a priority the moment the Royals offered Myers. Once Myers was on the table, you chuckle to yourself and mutter "have fun with that, morons" as you step away from the table.

 

To compete with the Royals' offer, it would have required Sano and Gibson.

 

You can't tell me with a straight face that is a good deal for the Twins. Shields is five years past the typical prime season of a player. That would be a lop-sided trade of epic proportions that would royally screw the franchise for years.

 

Except that Shields is far from typical. He's actually improving with age. At this point there is no evidence to suggest that he's due for an imminent physical dropoff.

 

I'm not sure that the trade would have taken Sano and Gibson. The Rays had a huge hole in CF, as well. Probably so, but you neglect to acknowledge that the Royals also got a young (27 years old), and very serviceable, and signed very inexpensively through 2017 @ multiple team options, Wade Davis- certainly not a front-end starter, but he alone would likely have been one of the top pitchers on the Twins starting rotation. His overall numbers this year don't look that good, but over his last 6 starts he has a 3.68 FIP and his K/9 is 9.26.

[Brock Beauchamp]

For the record, I would prefer to have Wil Myers for the next 6 years than James Shields.

 

It's funny that you think that...

 

Because I'm pretty sure there are 29 MLB GMs that agree with you.