Starting Pitching after 75 on the pitch count. When will Gardy learn?

[Twinfan & Dad]

I don't know about the rest of you Twin Fans but I am actually quite surprised at the success the Twins have had this year as I pretty much wrote off 2013 to rebuilding until the young guns are ready. However I can't sit back and not comment any longer about the inexcusable management of the starting pitching by Gardy. If you check the ERA for Twins pitching on MLB.com and look at ERA's by pitch count you will see that from 61 to 75 pitches the Twins have an ERA of 3.43 which is 4th best in the AL. From 76 to 90 we are last in the AL at 5.57 and from 91 to 105 we are at 5.89 which is 2nd from the bottom. How many games do we have to give away before the starting pitching staff is given the quick hook. The starters get us into the 6th when the pitch count exceeds 75 and the wheels fall off. 11 games we have lost the lead after the 5th by leaving the starter in. Don't believe me check the stats. I know this taxes the relievers but right now if this make shift staff can give us a lead going into the 6th I like the chances with the relievers. Thanks for letting me vent.

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[snepp]

You may enjoy some of this discussion...

 

http://twinsdaily.com/minnesota-twins-talk/6333-dump-gardenhire-now.html

[diehardtwinsfan]

Well, if you plan on carrying 15 pitchers total, you might be able to get away with this. But removing pitchers after 75 pitches is going to destroy your bull pen. I'm not a huge Gardy fan, but that type of strain on the pen will leave you with lots of injured relievers.

[Joe A. Preusser]

I don't know about the rest of you Twin Fans but I am actually quite surprised at the success the Twins have had this year as I pretty much wrote off 2013 to rebuilding until the young guns are ready. However I can't sit back and not comment any longer about the inexcusable management of the starting pitching by Gardy. If you check the ERA for Twins pitching on MLB.com and look at ERA's by pitch count you will see that from 61 to 75 pitches the Twins have an ERA of 3.43 which is 4th best in the AL. From 76 to 90 we are last in the AL at 5.57 and from 91 to 105 we are at 5.89 which is 2nd from the bottom. How many games do we have to give away before the starting pitching staff is given the quick hook. The starters get us into the 6th when the pitch count exceeds 75 and the wheels fall off. 11 games we have lost the lead after the 5th by leaving the starter in. Don't believe me check the stats. I know this taxes the relievers but right now if this make shift staff can give us a lead going into the 6th I like the chances with the relievers. Thanks for letting me vent.

 

Sure, you can do this...for about 2 weeks. Then your bullpen ERA skyrockets because they are all super overworked. Why can't anyone understand that Gardy leaves in his starters that extra inning because that is what the team (or any team for that matter) needs the starters to do. I have actually noticed Gardy has been pulling guys a little earlier than a month ago, something he can't get away with for long. Don't blame Gardy, blame the starters who tire too quickly and can't pitch well all the way up to 100+ pitches. I repeat, don't blame Gardy, blame the starters. One more time? Don't blame Gardy, blame the starters. Sinking in yet?

[Joe A. Preusser]

Sure, you can do this...for about 2 weeks. Then your bullpen ERA skyrockets because they are all super overworked. Why can't anyone understand that Gardy leaves in his starters that extra inning because that is what the team (or any team for that matter) needs the starters to do. I have actually noticed Gardy has been pulling guys a little earlier than a month ago, something he can't get away with for long. Don't blame Gardy, blame the starters who tire too quickly and can't pitch well all the way up to 100+ pitches. I repeat, don't blame Gardy, blame the starters. One more time? Don't blame Gardy, blame the starters. Sinking in yet?

 

I went back and read this and it came off pretty jack-assy. I am just very burnt out on all the blind Gardy haters that frequent this message board. Truth be told I have noticed the phenomenon you mentioned of the starters getting very weak after 5-6 innings, and it frustrates me to no end. But honestly, if I went to work and did a great job for 5-6 hours and then slacked off and then was worthless for 3 more hours, would expect my boss to let me go home early every day just to save productivity? Or would you expect him to hold me accountable for the rest of my shift? In conclusion, if you were offended by my original post, please accept my apology.

[Twinfan & Dad]

All I am saying is that with pitchers such as Correia and Pelfrey that very little was expected by many, give us 6 strong innings the stats don't lie. They will give up runs in later innings and in Pelfreys case maybe quite a few early on depending on his one good one bad outing pattern. Now that Deduno and Walters are in the rotation along with Diamond maybe they can go a little longer but giving up runs after 6 strong with your starters and then ruin the quality start by keeping them out there makes no sense. By the way most Correia haters should love that he is giving us 6 strong consistently. And yes I have played quite a bit of ball in my day and coached as well so grabbing a bat and glove comment on earlier post, what is your qualifications.

[Riverbrian]

I'm pretty sure that sometime in the future... A Manager will come up with a new system of handling his pitching staff and show success with it and the copy cats will come out of the woodwork.

 

I have no idea what this new system will be... I'm just pretty sure that the game will evolve because of one guy with a radical idea. It's always one guy with a radical idea that changes the world... Always.

 

No one has come up with tha radical idea yet. Gardy handles his staff much like the other managers do because that is what everyone feels will work absent of the radical idea.

 

If Correia and Pelfrey and Worley and Hernandez and Diamond and Deduno and Walters are tiring after 6 innings and hitting a wall.

 

You have to keep trying to stretch them or deal with it all year.

 

Today Corriea was under 100 pitches... Florimon choked on a ball and it cost us a run.

 

There is a doubleheader tomorrow... I can understand Gardenhire wishing and hoping... Maybe foolishly... Maybe not... Correia can keep a bullpen pitcher from throwing today with tomorrow looming.

[Twinfan & Dad]

In addition how many times have we had to go into long relief and use someone 3 or 4 innings out of the pen? Instead of using 3 relievers 1 inning each on consecutive nights, why not try 2 innings out of your long relief guys such as Pressly, Swarzak, Duensing. If they could eat up the 6th and 7th with Burton and Perkins for the 8th and 9th not bad. I agree with post on relievers getting overused see Burton the other night but do they really need to pitch every night, Just asking.

[Twinfan & Dad]

I guess we should feel fortunate that we are in so many games in the 6th inning with the question marks we have with our starters. If Deduno and Diamond can give us quality starts to go along with Correia who has been giving us strong outings all year and we know he will struggle sometime. Let's face it this staff is not the strongest in baseball. We need to grab wins when we are leading after 6 innings. Look at the ERA's of our starters in the 6th and 7th innings. Unfortunately this is the staff we have and they have overachieved barring Pelfrey and Worley. I'm all for stretching the starters out but when it costs wins what do you do? Get a whole new staff? Grab the wins when the starters give us quality starts. Can you say yes it is Gardy's fault. I repeat, yes it is Gardy's fault. Go Twins and hopefully with Gibson, Deduno, Diamond, May, Meyer and yes Correia the future is bright.

[Twins Twerp]

I'm pretty sure that sometime in the future... A Manager will come up with a new system of handling his pitching staff and show success with it and the copy cats will come out of the woodwork.

 

I have no idea what this new system will be... I'm just pretty sure that the game will evolve because of one guy with a radical idea. It's always one guy with a radical idea that changes the world... Always.

 

No one has come up with tha radical idea yet. Gardy handles his staff much like the other managers do because that is what everyone feels will work absent of the radical idea.

 

If Correia and Pelfrey and Worley and Hernandez and Diamond and Deduno and Walters are tiring after 6 innings and hitting a wall.

 

You have to keep trying to stretch them or deal with it all year.

 

Today Corriea was under 100 pitches... Florimon choked on a ball and it cost us a run.

 

There is a doubleheader tomorrow... I can understand Gardenhire wishing and hoping... Maybe foolishly... Maybe not... Correia can keep a bullpen pitcher from throwing today with tomorrow looming.

 

Wildcat formation perhaps?

[Badsmerf]

I'm starting over. You're new so I'm not going to freak out (yes, my last attempt was a freak out). Starters only going 75 pitches will not work. Like has been stated above, in order to do this you will have to essentially have them throw about 5 innings. The other 4 innings are going to be eaten up by guys like Swarzak and Duensing that struggle significantly to get through a batting order twice. And on top of that, say Swarzak or Duensing throw 30 pitches in 2 innings. When are you going to make them go back out to throw another 30 pitches? 3 days? 2 days? Even guys that throw 1 inning are only used in 2 games in a row. So how many pitchers are you going to burn through? Like stated above, if the roster sizes were bigger this would already be happening. They are capped at 25 and for good reason. Starters are paid to pitch deep into games. It really isn't that mystical to get a quality start out of a starter, the Twins just haven't had the talent on the roster the last few years to get that. Gardy is using what he has. I would leave guys out there as long as I can too. Whats the point of squeezing out every possible win if the team has no real chance of making the playoffs? Guys will get run down and injured and they will end up losing more games because of it.

[Willihammer]

If Florimon tackles that chopper from Suzuki instead of letting it roll into left field, then Rendon doesn't score from 2nd. That wasn't scored an error btw.

[Craig Arko]

I don't think it's a question of pitch count as much as it is most of these guys don't have the stuff to fool a batter the third time through the order. Maybe they need to adjust rhythm or something to shake things up a bit to get that elusive last inning.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'm pretty sure that sometime in the future... A Manager will come up with a new system of handling his pitching staff and show success with it and the copy cats will come out of the woodwork.

 

I have no idea what this new system will be... I'm just pretty sure that the game will evolve because of one guy with a radical idea. It's always one guy with a radical idea that changes the world... Always.

 

No one has come up with tha radical idea yet. Gardy handles his staff much like the other managers do because that is what everyone feels will work absent of the radical idea.

 

If Correia and Pelfrey and Worley and Hernandez and Diamond and Deduno and Walters are tiring after 6 innings and hitting a wall.

 

You have to keep trying to stretch them or deal with it all year.

 

Today Corriea was under 100 pitches... Florimon choked on a ball and it cost us a run.

 

There is a doubleheader tomorrow... I can understand Gardenhire wishing and hoping... Maybe foolishly... Maybe not... Correia can keep a bullpen pitcher from throwing today with tomorrow looming.

 

The radical idea is to have your shut down guy go 2 innings and give him the next day off... Never quite understood bringing a guy out for 1 hitter or for one inning. In 2004, Balfour was absolutely destroying the Yankees, and did so on a dozen pitches, yet he's removed the next inning... Gardy did this enough and ran into pitching problems forcing him to leave Nathan out far longer than he should have...

[Twinfan & Dad]

In response to Badsmerf thank you so much for not freaking out when a discussion has been started in regards to losing leads when starters can't get past 75 pitches or the 6th inning without giving up the lead. Let me clarify, I am new to the board but I am not new to baseball and all I am saying is stats don't lie. Am I saying every pitcher should be take out after 75 pitches? NO! Pelfrey-YES...Deduno and Diamond have shown they can go deep and have the stuff to do it. Thielbar,Pressly,Roenicke,Swarzak,Duensing,Fien. I think we can agree on the number 6 here? The schedule usually has 6 or 7 games per week. If 3 of these pitchers had to pitch 2 or even 3 innings in an outing per week we still have plenty of arms left in addition to Burton and Perkins. Think outside the box. Last week Gardy pulls Deduno in the 6th or 7th after a hit to start the inning. It worked out in that case even though I think Deduno can throw 100 pitches and still be effective. Hopefully 2 or 3 games per week the starter can get through the 7th leaving 6 middle and long relief to get us through 4 games. Think outside the box.

[old nurse]

80 innings is a lot of innings to ask of a relief pitcher for a year. When you ask them to go more than one inning you would have to increase the time between appearances. It is abalance.

[raindog]

And yes I have played quite a bit of ball in my day and coached as well so grabbing a bat and glove comment on earlier post, what is your qualifications.

 

Ha, that's just snepp's signature, buddy.

[Riverbrian]

In response to Badsmerf thank you so much for not freaking out when a discussion has been started in regards to losing leads when starters can't get past 75 pitches or the 6th inning without giving up the lead. Let me clarify, I am new to the board but I am not new to baseball and all I am saying is stats don't lie. Am I saying every pitcher should be take out after 75 pitches? NO! Pelfrey-YES...Deduno and Diamond have shown they can go deep and have the stuff to do it. Thielbar,Pressly,Roenicke,Swarzak,Duensing,Fien. I think we can agree on the number 6 here? The schedule usually has 6 or 7 games per week. If 3 of these pitchers had to pitch 2 or even 3 innings in an outing per week we still have plenty of arms left in addition to Burton and Perkins. Think outside the box. Last week Gardy pulls Deduno in the 6th or 7th after a hit to start the inning. It worked out in that case even though I think Deduno can throw 100 pitches and still be effective. Hopefully 2 or 3 games per week the starter can get through the 7th leaving 6 middle and long relief to get us through 4 games. Think outside the box.

 

A. Welcome aboard... TD is a great place. I look forward to reading all your future posts.

B. Stats can be very honest but in truth... stats lie all the time.

C. In your original post...paraphrasing... you use a team stat saying the Twins Starters are last and 2nd to last in ERA after 76 pitches. You use that info to hang Gardy by saying "when will he learn"?

D. Now you are saying that its OK if Deduno and Diamond go past 76 pitches. Just not Pelfrey. You've kinda splintered here.

E. I played and I coach as well. Many posters on this site have played and coached. It's hard to tell who has and who hasn't but 95% of the posters here are very knowledgeable.

F. I'm not naming the other 5 percent.

[Monkeypaws]

Bert Blyleven would not approve of this thread

 

I agree with the OP in that Pelfrey often has a hard time in the 6th inning and ruins what had been a very good start up to that point.

 

It's probably more problem of make-up and pitching savvy on the part of our starters than anything Gardy is doing.

[notoriousgod71]

If Florimon tackles that chopper from Suzuki instead of letting it roll into left field, then Rendon doesn't score from 2nd. That wasn't scored an error btw.

 

Why would it be? It goes beyond an ordinary effort to catch a ball.

[diehardtwinsfan]

In response to Badsmerf thank you so much for not freaking out when a discussion has been started in regards to losing leads when starters can't get past 75 pitches or the 6th inning without giving up the lead. Let me clarify, I am new to the board but I am not new to baseball and all I am saying is stats don't lie. Am I saying every pitcher should be take out after 75 pitches? NO! Pelfrey-YES...Deduno and Diamond have shown they can go deep and have the stuff to do it. Thielbar,Pressly,Roenicke,Swarzak,Duensing,Fien. I think we can agree on the number 6 here? The schedule usually has 6 or 7 games per week. If 3 of these pitchers had to pitch 2 or even 3 innings in an outing per week we still have plenty of arms left in addition to Burton and Perkins. Think outside the box. Last week Gardy pulls Deduno in the 6th or 7th after a hit to start the inning. It worked out in that case even though I think Deduno can throw 100 pitches and still be effective. Hopefully 2 or 3 games per week the starter can get through the 7th leaving 6 middle and long relief to get us through 4 games. Think outside the box.

 

In your original post, you did not distinguish, you simply pointed out that Twins' starters have a higher ERA from 75 pitches on. Truth be told though, I suspect you'll see something similar across the majors. Starting pitchers tend to tire as they go further in the game and hitters get better at timing them. Yes I suspect the Twins may have a higher ERA, but like others said, that has more to do with their talent than anything else.

 

The other thing I think you are doing here is looking at this in hindsight. Gardy's job in managing the starting pitching is putting the team in the best position to win the game. The problem lies in that a pitcher might be cruising through X innings and then he suddenly hits a wall. Gardy's job is to see if that guy is getting tired and have an option ready and waiting. I didn't see the Deduno game you sighted, but I'd bet anything that Deduno got hit pretty hard that previous inning and escaped, or he was having troubles locating his spots (which Deduno in particular has issues with). Gardy did what he should do, kept him on a shorter leash.

 

Last, I have to ask, in your first point, you suggested a 75 pitch limit. Now you are saying you want guys in longer. Is there a point to this? I agree you want your starters going 7 two or three games a week. That's a sign that you have a good staff. I don't see any of the pitchers on this staff being able to do that.

 

Oh, and welcome aboard.

[Seth Stohs]

I think it's fair to expect a starter to be able to throw more than 75 pitches. This is definitely not one to put on Gardy.

[pepperfoot]

you cant ask them to play 80 innings and not let them time between them...its not right

[drjim]

The radical idea is to have your shut down guy go 2 innings and give him the next day off... Never quite understood bringing a guy out for 1 hitter or for one inning. In 2004, Balfour was absolutely destroying the Yankees, and did so on a dozen pitches, yet he's removed the next inning... Gardy did this enough and ran into pitching problems forcing him to leave Nathan out far longer than he should have...

 

This 2004 game gets brought up all the time to attempt to prove all sorts of unrelated points.

 

Santana went 5 innings, Balfour went 2, and then Gardy went to Rincon for the 8th. Rincon had been amazing all year.

 

Yes, Gardy could have rode Balfour, but if the Yankees started hitting him and the Twins lost we would be destroying Gardy to this day. Putting your best pitchers in the same positions to succeed that they have been utilized all season should be low on the list of complaints against a manager.

[Guest USAFChief]

I think it's fair to expect a starter to be able to throw more than 75 pitches. This is definitely not one to put on Gardy.

 

 

I think it's fair to expect the manager to have an idea about when a starter is losing effectiveness and is likely done, and if the game is close, remove him before the likely upcoming damage happens.

 

Tying anything to pitch count is unproductive and does little to help the pitcher or the team. If a guy has 100 pitches but has had few tough situations, has been effective in recent innings, and has no recent injury issues, let him go out there and start another inning if the situation warrants.

 

Conversely, just because a starter has only reached 75 pitches isn't reason in and of itself to leave him in the game. He might be done, and it might be obvious you're playing with fire by sending him back out there.

 

Managers should manage, not consult a checklist.

[drjim]

I am somewhat intrigued by the premise of the post, but as the replies have shown there are limited options for a manger to use if the team wants to keep a 12 man staff.

 

It should not be surprising that most pitchers do worse their third (and fourth) time through a batting order. It should also not be surprising that the Twins are among the worst in the league at starter's ERA in this part of the game since they are among the worst ERAs (the worst?) for starters in all of baseball.

 

The best solution is to get better starters.

[IdahoPilgrim]

I'm one of those 5% that Riverbrian talked about that is not knowledgeable about the game, i.e. never played or coached it. That being said, I am very well versed in the art of debate and logic.

 

For me the original sentence of the thread title is a legitimate question to debate - how deep into the game should pitchers go, and how should that be customized for each starter based on ability and history.

 

At least for me, however, the second sentence of the title of the thread completely destroyed any credibility the first sentence created. It indicated that what would follow would not be a respectful discussion and analysis but the exact opposite. Whatever the background of the OP, I'm fairly sure it doesn't match Gardenhire's experience and pedigree. To be sure, Gardenhire's decisions as manager are entirely fair game for critique - that goes with the territory of being a MLB manager. But it should be done with respect, not with what I perceived as smugness.

[Riverbrian]

I'm one of those 5% that Riverbrian talked about that is not knowledgeable about the game, i.e. never played or coached it. That being said, I am very well versed in the art of debate and logic.

 

For me the original sentence of the thread title is a legitimate question to debate - how deep into the game should pitchers go, and how should that be customized for each starter based on ability and history.

 

At least for me, however, the second sentence of the title of the thread completely destroyed any credibility the first sentence created. It indicated that what would follow would not be a respectful discussion and analysis but the exact opposite. Whatever the background of the OP, I'm fairly sure it doesn't match Gardenhire's experience and pedigree. To be sure, Gardenhire's decisions as manager are entirely fair game for critique - that goes with the territory of being a MLB manager. But it should be done with respect, not with what I perceived as smugness.

 

LOL... You are not in the 5%. I got you Ranked fairly high on the baseball smarts list... You come in below Dan Plesac but above Kate Beckinsale.

[Bark's Lounge]

below Dan Plesac but above Kate Beckinsale.

 

Hmmm... did you get that position from the Kama Sutra?

[Twinfan & Dad]

I thank you for your feedback as I am frustrated by the Twins starters inability to get through the opposition lineup that 3rd time without losing it. I realize that you have a very limited staff that are not strikeout pitchers and this in itself is a huge problem but nothing can be done about it. When you pitch to contact and can't get many swings and misses out of your starters good major league hitting makes you pay. I'm just looking for ways to get some more wins when we are in the game through the sixth. The 75 pitch limit is a moving target but when time and time again the same things happen in the 6th and 7th why not try something different. I too remember when the bullpen was structured so that Rincon, Balfour, Crain, Guerrier, Reyes, sometimes went 2 innings. Not saying anything about todays bullpen because they have been fantastic and once again a major strength. I just think these guys could go 2 innings and then rest for 2 days and be fine. You also have to keep on top of how they feel everyday so that you don't get overworked. Again, thanks for the feedback and GO TWINS>.