Should the Twins Pursue Slugger Jorge Soler to Beef Up Lineup?

[Hunter McCall]

3 hours ago, SteveLV said:

I would have a chat with Lopez about Soler in the clubhouse before making a move for him.  There could be a reason he has not found a home given his bat performance.

Again, he's won two World Series'.... Why is the clubhouse thing a concern?

[DJL44]

14 hours ago, Shaitan said:

But never backload a contract. All you're doing is pushing your current problems to the future.

Never front load a contract.

Understanding the Time Value of Money (investopedia.com)

[jorgenswest]

Last season Soler was described by his manager as a leader in the clubhouse. Either he or Martinez would be a necessary addition to the middle of the line up and so much better than the platoon bat options.

[SteveLV]

So every player that has won a World Series in a team sport is a great teammate?

I am just suggesting that Lopez would have the skinny on him and doubtless would at least be contacted by the FO before doing a deal.

Just like Lopez is reported to be close to his former teammate and fellow Venezuelan Luzardo.

[Hunter McCall]

14 minutes ago, SteveLV said:

So every player that has won a World Series in a team sport is a great teammate?

I am just suggesting that Lopez would have the skinny on him and doubtless would at least be contacted by the FO before doing a deal.

Just like Lopez is reported to be close to his former teammate and fellow Venezuelan Luzardo.

No, not every player that has won a World Series is a great teammate but why is this a huge factor? If it's such a big concern why aren't people asking about Adam Duvall or Whit Merrifield's abilities to lead a clubhouse. I'm not saying he's a great teammate because I don't personally know him but it's not like he's Trevor Bauer or something... I just don't understand why people in the comments are insistent about questioning his ability as a leader while simultaneously assuming the other guys mentioned are "clubhouse guys"

This isn't intended at you at all either, I understand that you were just mentioning that they should consult their former Marlin on whether or not they should kick the tires on him, which is obviously a good move. There have just been a ton of weird comments questioning Soler's ability to lead that have me scratching my head.

I just don't put too much stock into the clubhouse leader thing. Josh Donaldson was thought to be a battle-tested vet with a chip on his shoulder and it just turned out he was kind of a scumbag... I think every clubhouse is different and molded by the crew that they have in there with their established culture. I think the Twins have a really good one, but I just think the idea of filling your roster with "clubhouse guys" is a bit overplayed.

Again, want to emphasize that this is in no way me talking bad about your idea or thought process, I just had to hold a mini-rant there on the subject. In conclusion, sign Jorge Soler and become a better team!

[Minny505]

23 hours ago, Muppet said:

If they are keeping Kepler and Soler never has to play right field, then yes. Do it. 

No. Soler is a terrible DH. Since the start of 2021, he has over 1000 PAs as a DH and sports a wRC+ of 97 with an OPS+ of 98.

1000 PAs is not a SSS issue. It's a trend. 

[Major League Ready]

5 minutes ago, Minny505 said:

No. Soler is a terrible DH. Since the start of 2021, he has over 1000 PAs as a DH and sports a wRC+ of 97 with an OPS+ of 98.

1000 PAs is not a SSS issue. It's a trend. 

According to Fangraphs Soler has a wRC+ of 129 as a DH.  What is your source?

Season	Position	BB%	K%	BB/K	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	ISO	BABIP	wRC	wRAA	wOBA	wRC+
Total	as LF	10.8%	27.4%	0.39	.216	.304	.401	.705	.185	.261	49	-2.3	.307	93
Total	as RF	9.5%	26.3%	0.36	.245	.321	.438	.759	.194	.298	199	12.7	.326	102
Total	as DH	11.2%	26.6%	0.42	.251	.346	.523	.869	.272	.287	229	56.4	.365	129
Total	as PH	18.8%	35.4%	0.53	.205	.354	.410	.764	.205	.300	7	0.8	.339	114

[Riverbrian]

I never truly understand how "Clubhouse Leader" is ever typed by us mere mortals.

We have never stepped into a clubhouse to see for ourselves. 

If we had the opportunity to step into a clubhouse to see for ourselves... one day of observation would amount to worthless.   

Even those who are in the clubhouse every day will have a hard time condensing into words what players bring psychologically to an overall unit because it takes two to tango or 26 to build a birds nest. The overall result of the leadership of one person is dependent upon on each of the 25 players react INDIVIDAULLY to the conditions, How they react would have individual variation as vast as each individual involved. Some players tolerate, some players don't and how can that ever be expressed. 

And even if it could be expressed publicly... It's not expressed.

Players as a common sense rule don't throw other players under the bus publicly.

Those who do throw players under the bus publicly for being a bad teammate... it says almost as much about the player disclosing the dirty laundry as the one creating the dirty laundry. 

 

[Hunter McCall]

18 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I never truly understand how "Clubhouse Leader" is ever typed by us mere mortals.

We have never stepped into a clubhouse to see for ourselves. 

If we had the opportunity to step into a clubhouse to see for ourselves... one day of observation would amount to worthless.   

Even those who are in the clubhouse every day will have a hard time condensing into words what players bring psychologically to an overall unit because it takes two to tango or 26 to build a birds nest. The overall result of the leadership of one person is dependent upon on each of the 25 players react INDIVIDAULLY to the conditions, How they react would have individual variation as vast as each individual involved. Some players tolerate, some players don't and how can that ever be expressed. 

And even if it could be expressed publicly... It's not expressed.

Players as a common sense rule don't throw other players under the bus publicly.

Those who do throw players under the bus publicly for being a bad teammate... it says almost as much about the player disclosing the dirty laundry as the one creating the dirty laundry. 

 

Exactly. It's just weird to me the obsession with adding "clubhouse guys". Yes, the Nelson Cruz signing was great, but was it great because he was a good leader or because he clubbed 41 home runs in 2019 and finished top 10 in MVP voting in 2019 and 2020? He was likely a good leader but was also really good on the field which resulted in his greatest contributions to the Twins.

It's obvious that you want good team players whenever possible. You don't want to sign a guy that's hated by everyone, but what a rare occurrence that is. Good teams need guys who are just good baseball players regardless of whether they are phenomenal leaders or just soft spoken followers. This is why I think this narrative is silly and overplayed.

[Minny505]

37 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

According to Fangraphs Soler has a wRC+ of 129 as a DH.  What is your source?

Season	Position	BB%	K%	BB/K	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	ISO	BABIP	wRC	wRAA	wOBA	wRC+
Total	as LF	10.8%	27.4%	0.39	.216	.304	.401	.705	.185	.261	49	-2.3	.307	93
Total	as RF	9.5%	26.3%	0.36	.245	.321	.438	.759	.194	.298	199	12.7	.326	102
Total	as DH	11.2%	26.6%	0.42	.251	.346	.523	.869	.272	.287	229	56.4	.365	129
Total	as PH	18.8%	35.4%	0.53	.205	.354	.410	.764	.205	.300	7	0.8	.339	114

In trying to recreate the leaderboard I based that original statement on, it looks like you're not wrong about me being wrong. Whoops😳 Appreciate you checking on my work.

My Fangraphs filter turned off the positional split at some point while narrowing down all the other factors.

His wRC+ as a DH since 2021 is an even 120.

I'm now curious where your 129 came from. Is that for his career?

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, Hunter McCall said:

Exactly. It's just weird to me the obsession with adding "clubhouse guys". Yes, the Nelson Cruz signing was great, but was it great because he was a good leader or because he clubbed 41 home runs in 2019 and finished top 10 in MVP voting in 2019 and 2020? He was likely a good leader but was also really good on the field which resulted in his greatest contributions to the Twins.

It's obvious that you want good team players whenever possible. You don't want to sign a guy that's hated by everyone, but what a rare occurrence that is. Good teams need guys who are just good baseball players regardless of whether they are phenomenal leaders or just soft spoken followers. This is why I think this narrative is silly and overplayed.

When it comes to Nelson Cruz... the only thing that I can say.

That guy can hit. 

When it comes to chemistry... Just look at the 26 people in your office and the different personalities that come with each of those 26 people.

Does everybody like everybody? Are there any cliques? Can you tell a dirty joke to this individual but not to that individual? Is the person who can't handle the dirty joke good in the clubhouse? Is the person telling the dirty joke good in the clubhouse?

Our own work environments are incredibly complicated when we view them up close and to the heart. Yet we sit here miles away and make declarations on who is a clubhouse guy!

I'll never understand that. 

[jorgenswest]

The leadership nonsense is something I may have started.

I wrote about Martinez and compared him to Cruz but my parallel was the elite work ethic that has helped them to defy aging curves. Somehow that turned into mostly a clubhouse focus. I wrote how they both had their best years and most all star appearances in their 30s. It is possible that this work ethic might have a positive impact on the clubhouse but probably not worth debating. My initial point was that Martinez has a good chance of exceeding projections as Cruz did later in his career due to his work ethic. His bat and whether it can help the Twins in the middle of the lineup is worth debating.

[Hunter McCall]

4 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

The leadership nonsense is something I may have started.

I wrote about Martinez and compared him to Cruz but my parallel was the elite work ethic that has helped them to defy aging curves. Somehow that turned into mostly a clubhouse focus. I wrote how they both had their best years and most all star appearances in their 30s. It is possible that this work ethic might have a positive impact on the clubhouse but probably not worth debating. My initial point was that Martinez has a good chance of exceeding projections as Cruz did later in his career due to his work ethic. His bat and whether it can help the Twins in the middle of the lineup is worth debating.

Yes, I remember your original comment and I don't think it particularly is the reasoning for the debate! I understand your point and don't directly tie it to the clubhouse argument. You're absolutely right that sometimes there are guys who defy the typical aging ball player. But, as I mentioned, Father Time tends to bite everyone all the same. Betting on Martinez to continue his success I think is scarier than betting on Soler at his age.

Even if you did start the debate, it certainly brings about many different viewpoints that I always enjoy reading so I appreciate your comment!

[jorgenswest]

12 minutes ago, Hunter McCall said:

Yes, I remember your original comment and I don't think it particularly is the reasoning for the debate! I understand your point and don't directly tie it to the clubhouse argument. You're absolutely right that sometimes there are guys who defy the typical aging ball player. But, as I mentioned, Father Time tends to bite everyone all the same. Betting on Martinez to continue his success I think is scarier than betting on Soler at his age.

Even if you did start the debate, it certainly brings about many different viewpoints that I always enjoy reading so I appreciate your comment!

I have confidence that Soler or Martinez would be a needed addition to the middle of the line up. My only preference for Martinez is I think he might take a one year commitment which I would prefer to three for Soler. Go hard after both and get one of them.

[Hunter McCall]

9 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

I have confidence that Soler or Martinez would be a needed addition to the middle of the line up. My only preference for Martinez is I think he might take a one year commitment which I would prefer to three for Soler. Go hard after both and get one of them.

100% agree. If they don't get Soler, Martinez is my 1B to Soler's 1A. I prefer Soler due to his age and positional flexibility (it's been well documented he's not a good fielder but at least he's an option). Both can hit though which is the key.

Edited February 2, 2024 by Hunter McCall

[SteveLV]

Well, I am sure most have played team sports in our lives.  There are good teammates, ok teammates, and lousy ones.

My point is that it is a FACTOR in making a signing or trade decision.  It is not the end-all be-all, but it certainly is a factor.

No one wants to play with Bauer, apparently. Objectively, the guy can pitch.  But no one has signed him the last 2 seasons.

There is a reason for that, including PR.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:10 PM, DJL44 said:

Merrifield doesn't hit

FTFY

[Major League Ready]

6 hours ago, Minny505 said:

In trying to recreate the leaderboard I based that original statement on, it looks like you're not wrong about me being wrong. Whoops😳 Appreciate you checking on my work.

My Fangraphs filter turned off the positional split at some point while narrowing down all the other factors.

His wRC+ as a DH since 2021 is an even 120.

I'm now curious where your 129 came from. Is that for his career?

 

Yes.  I just clicked on career splits instead of year by year.

[Bright Twins]

7 hours ago, Hunter McCall said:

No, not every player that has won a World Series is a great teammate but why is this a huge factor? If it's such a big concern why aren't people asking about Adam Duvall or Whit Merrifield's abilities to lead a clubhouse. I'm not saying he's a great teammate because I don't personally know him but it's not like he's Trevor Bauer or something... I just don't understand why people in the comments are insistent about questioning his ability as a leader while simultaneously assuming the other guys mentioned are "clubhouse guys"

This isn't intended at you at all either, I understand that you were just mentioning that they should consult their former Marlin on whether or not they should kick the tires on him, which is obviously a good move. There have just been a ton of weird comments questioning Soler's ability to lead that have me scratching my head.

I just don't put too much stock into the clubhouse leader thing. Josh Donaldson was thought to be a battle-tested vet with a chip on his shoulder and it just turned out he was kind of a scumbag... I think every clubhouse is different and molded by the crew that they have in there with their established culture. I think the Twins have a really good one, but I just think the idea of filling your roster with "clubhouse guys" is a bit overplayed.

Again, want to emphasize that this is in no way me talking bad about your idea or thought process, I just had to hold a mini-rant there on the subject. In conclusion, sign Jorge Soler and become a better team!

I think those questioning clubhouse behavior for Soler isn't that he should be a leader, but remember how early in his career he was said to have anger issues and was criticized for not running out grounders and not putting his all into the team. Also, they remember how Josh Donaldson's contribution on the clubhouse was not that good. Clubhouse behavior is important. So, it's a fair question. 

I am totally supportive of a Solar signing, I assume he has matured and has become a good teammate. But, it does not hurt to check.

[KBJ1]

Gurriel would have been better for the same price. But Soler mashing in LF is better than what we have now.

But since we have now signed the aging Santana to platoon at 1B, I don't  see this or ANY LF masher being acquired.

CF will be fine with Castro & Martin regardless of what Buxton is able to do.

So a LF masher is needed more than anything (outside of a #2 SP) .  But alas will not happen now that we have signed Santana to platoon at 1B.

Sigh.