Pulling Joe Ryan Was the Correct Decision

[rv78]

9 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

I enjoyed Dusty Baker's response when asked if Urquidy was on an innings count or a pitch count.  He replied that Urquidy was on a performance count.  In my opinion, that is the better approach.  Let Ryan start the 3rd inning and see how he does.  If he does well, keep him in the game.  If he doesn't, the bullpen should be prepared to step in.  Why assume Ryan is going to fail?  That is a negative approach and probably not a way for a team to have confidence in itself.

That's what separates the good Managers from the Rocco's. Rocco presumes failure based on analytics and he lets that be the basis for his decisions. Managers like Baker base decisions on actual game play that is occuring. Rocco can't even set a lineup using his best players without having lefty/righty splits influence the process. Showing and giving confidence in your players counts for something, but if your Manager says you're not playing because you can't hit leftys then the opportunity to prove him wrong never happens so the narrative never changes. Assuming Ryan was going to implode in the 3rd inning and at least 1 of the next 4, 5 or 6 pitchers you were going to use isn't, is foolish, especially when they are locked into facing 3 hitters and you can't make a change if they implode. Which is exactly what happened.

[twinfan]

Actually I was a bit surprised that Ryan was the starter vs Maeda. But I disagree that pulling him was a good move. He seemed effective enough unless he was hurting. Yes, the bullpen only allowed 2 runs and yes, our 4-9 hitters didn't do the job but the question was about Ryan and Rocco's decision- not the failure of the hitters.

[Whitey333]

I am not a Rocco fan at all.  I believe he is in the bottom quarter of MLB managers.  His inability for in game management is shocking.  Just as his rigid non flexible use of his pre ordained game plan. But I don't fault him for taking out Ryan so early.  Truth be told it was our offense that doomed us and derailed us all year.  You aren't going to win too many playoff games only getting 3 hits per game.  Just as you won't win by striking out 52 times in 4 games.  And then having the GM basically saying he doesn't care a out strikeouts.  He says homeruns win ball games.  How many games have we lost due to our Inability and unwillingness to put the ball in play with 2 strikes in critical al situations?

[saviking]

I'm not complaining about the move as our  ullpen woukd have had a day of rest after but it's impossible to know what would have happened if we had left Ryan in. 

[specialiststeve]

Wrong answer. So sad so many people buy into the metric stuff and don't trust their eyes and the feel of the game. 

Was at the game. Was a "collective" what the heck chatter and Ryan must be hurt as he was dealing! Like the Barrios debacle from Toronto,  am sure the Houston fans were thrilled with the choice. Ryan CLEARLY had his good stuff like early in the year. 

Baldelli's lack of trust in his staff continues to be an issue and hopefully he will learn and get better as he asks his players to... as he is a liability with the pitching staff. 

 

[Nine of twelve]

In the regular season there is no way I'd have pulled Ryan after two. But this was an elimination game with Lopez in position to give us a long start in the next game. That, coupled with a day off before a potential game 5 meant that each pitcher could give it everything he had. Also factoring in that Houston's batters had to adjust to a new pitcher in each plate appearance, I think making it a bullpen game was a very reasonable strategy. I think the issue was less about pulling Ryan early and more about in what order the pitchers would appear. I suspect that the timing of Thielbar's stint was to bring in someone with a different look (lefty relying heavily on breaking pitches) between two hard throwers (Stewart and Paddack). Sometimes things work out favorably and sometimes they don't.

[USAFChief]

16 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

In the regular season there is no way I'd have pulled Ryan after two. But this was an elimination game with Lopez in position to give us a long start in the next game. That, coupled with a day off before a potential game 5 meant that each pitcher could give it everything he had. Also factoring in that Houston's batters had to adjust to a new pitcher in each plate appearance, I think making it a bullpen game was a very reasonable strategy. I think the issue was less about pulling Ryan early and more about in what order the pitchers would appear. I suspect that the timing of Thielbar's stint was to bring in someone with a different look (lefty relying heavily on breaking pitches) between two hard throwers (Stewart and Paddack). Sometimes things work out favorably and sometimes they don't.

The timing of Thielbar was entirely due to 2 lefties coming up for Houston. 100 percent. 

 

[Nine of twelve]

5 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

The timing of Thielbar was entirely due to 2 lefties coming up for Houston. 100 percent. 

 

I accept that this was a factor, but those two lefties would have batted again later in the game. Rocco could have saved Thielbar for then instead. I concede that Dusty would have been more likely to use pinch hitters later in the game so it was probably better to use Thielbar earlier than later.

[USAFChief]

6 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

I accept that this was a factor, but those two lefties would have batted again later in the game. Rocco could have saved Thielbar for then instead. I concede that Dusty would have been more likely to use pinch hitters later in the game so it was probably better to use Thielbar earlier than later.

Dusty wasn't pinch hitting for either Alvarez or Tucker.

This isn't difficult. Theilbar was in to get through those two, 1 time. 

 

[JD-TWINS]

Why is Ryan being in or out a concern?

We gave up 3 runs to the World Series Champs at home, pitching was fine no matter who was doing it………gotta score more runs to win the game. Period!

[MGM4706]

Could not disagree more! In this situation even if you are going with a bullpen game leave the guy that is in as long as he is doing well. First sign of trouble take him out. So Ryan was fine. Leave him in one or two more. Then Brock was fine. He should have stayed in one or two more. As AJ said on the broadcast if you go with 8 pitchers sooner or later you hit a Dud. Theilbar was the Dud!! He gives up big hits in the clutch. They are usually someone else's runners so his ERA looks good. He is not reliable in clutch situations!

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, MGM4706 said:

Could not disagree more! In this situation even if you are going with a bullpen game leave the guy that is in as long as he is doing well. First sign of trouble take him out. So Ryan was fine.

By that rule, doesn't he come out?  Ryan's last 3 batters faced were HR - single - groundout.  Looks like a "first sign of trouble" to me.  If that were part of Emilio Pagan's body of work for the game, you would be hollering "Next!"