Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat Elected to the Hall of Fame

[DJL44]

30 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

Harmon, Rodney, Kirby, Bert, and now Tony-O and Kitty. All but Kirby were on the team for all or parts of the seasons from 1970-1973. 

That is crazy. 5 Hall of Famers and they couldn't win anything. They weren't even .500 in 1971 and exactly .500 in 1972-73. You would think a team with 5 Hall of Famers in their prime would be better than .500.

[Trov]

Oliva should have been in long before.  He was knocked for his counting numbers being low.  However, other guys made it in despite their counting numbers being low.  I would point to Sandy Koufax and Kirby Puckett as a guy that Oliva should have been compared, despite the difference of position.  Koufax had bad early career and retired at his peak at age of 30 due to health issues.  He had a stretch of the best pitcher in baseball and retired during that time.  Similar to Puckett to. 

Puckett's production really was not dropping off and showed top player for long stretch before health ended his career short too. Where Oliva tried to play through his injury and he retired on a down note.  I strongly believe had his injury ended his career completely he would have been in much earlier.  However, he tried to keep playing and was a decent player, but not the same as before.  If you take his last few seasons off and the injury would have been what ended his career he would have got the what if push, like Puckett and Koufax, but Olivia ended on a low note, where the others ended on high notes. 

I am glad both finally got in, as I think both deserved it.  I truely feel if Twins would have beat Dodgers in 65 Kaat gets labeled as one of best in game at the time and that would have pushed him over the edge, but Koufax was unhitabble and Kaat pitched great, just not as good. 

[DuluthRoots]

I have a baseball with multiple autgraphs--all Hall of Famers when they signed. Tony O signed it for me years ago--I told him he deserved to be in. So now it's official.

BTW, Puckett would not sign it while an active player, and I never got a second chance

[DocBauer]

Been a Twins fan for over 50yrs since I was around 5yrs old. But I didn't really understand what was going on or who guys were for a few more years. Mid 70's I became plugged in. And I remember the days of Hosken Powell and Willie Norwood, followed by others and can barely recall Oliva as part of those teams. So I never got to enjoy, much less appreciate, what he did in his career.

But I know the numbers and the accolades. As already pointed out by Trov, Oliva and Puckett are very similar as outstanding producers who DOMINATED before injury. I often think/reflect on someone like Sayers in the NFL. There is room for outstanding/dominate careers curtailed by injury. 

Oliva should have been in long ago! And Kaat had a long and tremendous career. Both have given back since their retirement in so many ways. Hell, Kaat could almost be included just as a broadcaster!

So happy that both are in and feel each is so deserving.

[TopGunn#22]

Doc, I totally agree Kaat should also go in as a broadcaster some day.  I'll tell you, Oliva was just a treat to watch hit.  He was all coiled up and when his swing uncoiled it was smooth and "wicked !!"  As a kid, I used to scour the box scores in my local paper each night just to see how many hits Tony-O got.  I would read the ENTIRE box score.  But the FIRST place my eyes would go was to:

                AB        Runs     Hits   RBI

Oliva RF    4           2           3       3

And then I would scan for extra base hits:  Oliva 2B-2 (36)  HR-1 (22)    Ahhhh, the memories.  

Trov, great point !  I remember many years ago, looking at Oliva's stats on the back of a 1972 baseball card.  It had stats that went thru his 1971 third and final batting title.  His career average was .313 and in the pitching dominated era he played in, that's pretty. darn. good.  Clemente, Rose, Carew, there were only a handful of guys who were better.  That HAROLD BLEEPING BAINES got in before Tony-O is criminal.  That Kaat won 283 games and 16...SIXTEEN Gold Gloves and had to wait this long is frustrating.  

But all the frustration and angst over the injustice of them not being elected while others (not as deserving in my opinion, WERE) is gone.  washed away like a warm summer rain.  I believe my wife and i will be driving to Cooperstown N.Y. from Rochester this coming July.  Maybe I'll see Tony-O and he'll sign a picture for me that says H.O.F. 2022.  What a great feeling for long time Twins Fans.

[RpR]

Back 35 years we used to get a cable show with 3 sport casters on the Chicago station; on one show when they spoke of who should be in the hall of fame and was not, Tony Oliva was the first name they brought up and all agreed.

[RonCoomersOPS]

Oliva is a no-brainer in my book, a d it's a damned shame it took so long to get him into the HOF. He should have been inducted ages ago.

Kaat feels like a soft pick to be honest. The guy pitched for approximately 3 eternities, yet only amassed 50 bWAR? The gold gloves are really remarkable and he had a couple of very strong years, but I guess to me it feels like his overall numbers indicate a Hall of Very Good type of player. In any case, good for him getting into the HOF.

[Twins_Fan_For_Life]

I have met Tony a number of times over the years. He is always such a great guy to talk to. A few years ago my daughter met in concessions line at Target Field.  She told him he was her dad's favorite player. He immediately had his picture taken with her to send to me.  I am super happy that he was elected to the Hall of Fame

[DJL44]

On 12/6/2021 at 8:22 AM, mikelink45 said:

Imagine if Buck O'Neill were alive to deliver a speech at Cooperstown.  

You don't have to imagine this. He gave a speech at Cooperstown when he received the Buck O'Neil Lifetime Achievement award. You can watch it on YouTube.

Buck O'Neil Hall of Fame speech (baseballhall.org)

[dex8425]

10 hours ago, RonCoomersOPS said:

Oliva is a no-brainer in my book, a d it's a damned shame it took so long to get him into the HOF. He should have been inducted ages ago.

Kaat feels like a soft pick to be honest. The guy pitched for approximately 3 eternities, yet only amassed 50 bWAR? The gold gloves are really remarkable and he had a couple of very strong years, but I guess to me it feels like his overall numbers indicate a Hall of Very Good type of player. In any case, good for him getting into the HOF.

All the veteran's committee and golden era committee picks are soft picks really.  If Kaat is in, there's no way Johan Santana doesn't get in. Johan has more BWar despite pitching 3 eternities less than Kaat. 

[mikelink45]

45 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

You don't have to imagine this. He gave a speech at Cooperstown when he received the Buck O'Neil Lifetime Achievement award. You can watch it on YouTube.

Buck O'Neil Hall of Fame speech (baseballhall.org)

I would still like another one.

[DJL44]

27 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

I would still like another one.

I've got a better scenario. Imagine if the Cubs had scrapped their college of coaches and made O'Neil the first black MLB manager in the 1960s. 

Buck O'Neil is much more important to the game than the Hall of Fame. In this case it feels like the HoF is trying to shine in his reflected glory.

[DJL44]

59 minutes ago, dex8425 said:

All the veteran's committee and golden era committee picks are soft picks really.  If Kaat is in, there's no way Johan Santana doesn't get in. Johan has more BWar despite pitching 3 eternities less than Kaat. 

Minnie Minoso was a clear omission. The others I'm less enthusiastic about.

Every team has a player like Tony Oliva who fell just short of the Hall of Fame due to injury. Are we going to put all of those guys in? Nomar and Pedroia for the Red Sox, Al Rosen and Albert Belle for the Indians. David Wright for the Mets. Eric Davis for the Reds. Dave Stieb for the Blue Jays. Don Mattingly, Charlie Keller and Thurman Munson for the Yankees. Bret Saberhagen for the Royals. Orel Hershiser for the Dodgers. Felix Hernandez for the Mariners. Dale Murphy for the Braves. The list goes on and on.

The old-timers passed over the the three best candidates (Bill Dahlen, Grant Johnson, Dick Redding) in an upside-down election that seemed to have little to do with playing ability. Bud Fowler and Buck O'Neil were unremarkable baseball talents. Allie Reynolds would be the worst pitcher in the Hall of Fame and he got 50% support.

[dex8425]

On 12/7/2021 at 10:19 AM, DJL44 said:

Minnie Minoso was a clear omission. The others I'm less enthusiastic about.

Every team has a player like Tony Oliva who fell just short of the Hall of Fame due to injury. Are we going to put all of those guys in? Nomar and Pedroia for the Red Sox, Al Rosen and Albert Belle for the Indians. David Wright for the Mets. Eric Davis for the Reds. Dave Stieb for the Blue Jays. Don Mattingly, Charlie Keller and Thurman Munson for the Yankees. Bret Saberhagen for the Royals. Orel Hershiser for the Dodgers. Felix Hernandez for the Mariners. Dale Murphy for the Braves. The list goes on and on.

The old-timers passed over the the three best candidates (Bill Dahlen, Grant Johnson, Dick Redding) in an upside-down election that seemed to have little to do with playing ability. Bud Fowler and Buck O'Neil were unremarkable baseball talents. Allie Reynolds would be the worst pitcher in the Hall of Fame and he got 50% support.

I think pretty much all the guys you mentioned in the first paragraph will get in via the veteran's committee.  Munson, Saberhagen, and Murphy should already be in. Felix isn't on the ballot yet. The committees don't really seem to make decisions based on any objective criteria. I mean, Harold Baines...? Phil Rizzuto? Bill Mazeroski got in solely because of his HR in the world series. Jack Morris got in because of his reputation for postseason pitching. 

[Dantes929]

On 12/6/2021 at 10:29 AM, stringer bell said:

How many HOFers does that make for the Twins? I consider them to be ex-Twins if they wouldn't have been elected without their time in Minnesota. There is Harmon, Rodney, Kirby, Bert, and now Tony-O and Kitty. All but Kirby were on the team for all or parts of the seasons from 1970-1973. 

I think I could make a pretty good argument that Jack Morris would not have made it without his time in Minnesota.   18 of his 254 wins and his ERA is a couple ticks higher without his MN season.    Of course, one of the main credentials for getting in was his playoff performance in 1991.    Carlton, Molitor , Winfield, and Thome definitely get in without Twins time.    Morris barely got in and I think the Twins put him over the top.

[Dantes929]

On 12/7/2021 at 10:19 AM, DJL44 said:

Minnie Minoso was a clear omission. The others I'm less enthusiastic about.

Every team has a player like Tony Oliva who fell just short of the Hall of Fame due to injury. Are we going to put all of those guys in? Nomar and Pedroia for the Red Sox, Al Rosen and Albert Belle for the Indians. David Wright for the Mets. Eric Davis for the Reds. Dave Stieb for the Blue Jays. Don Mattingly, Charlie Keller and Thurman Munson for the Yankees. Bret Saberhagen for the Royals. Orel Hershiser for the Dodgers. Felix Hernandez for the Mariners. Dale Murphy for the Braves. The list goes on and on.

The old-timers passed over the the three best candidates (Bill Dahlen, Grant Johnson, Dick Redding) in an upside-down election that seemed to have little to do with playing ability. Bud Fowler and Buck O'Neil were unremarkable baseball talents. Allie Reynolds would be the worst pitcher in the Hall of Fame and he got 50% support.

Maybe not all or even most you named but some of them.    Albert Belle was a monster.   Add Ron Guidry who I would put in the Hall over Morris.     I am more a Hall of great even if they only played 8-10 seasons.    I am ok with very good for very long time getting in but I lean toward great for shorter.

[stringer bell]

1 hour ago, Dantes929 said:

I think I could make a pretty good argument that Jack Morris would not have made it without his time in Minnesota.   18 of his 254 wins and his ERA is a couple ticks higher without his MN season.    Of course, one of the main credentials for getting in was his playoff performance in 1991.    Carlton, Molitor , Winfield, and Thome definitely get in without Twins time.    Morris barely got in and I think the Twins put him over the top.

I was thinking the same thing, but Morris was a Tiger and Blue Jay for longer than his time in Minnesota. Perhaps when I was spelling out the ex-Twin criteria it would also include that they played a majority of their time in the majors with the Twins.