Jump to content
  • Create Account

How the Twins Front Office Addressed Past Playoff Weaknesses


 

 

Well they weren't last year otherwise they would have finished ahead of him in the voting.  Sure every year is different and different guys emerge but the article never insinuated Maeda was bad or not top 5 or not top 10 etc. It just listed some of the best rotations out there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 121
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I'm just trying to imagine myself from 2016 reading all these comments from people who are bored with winning baseball 

Reality check: This is not a "make or break year for the FO." They completely turned around a mess of a franchise and have produced the best W% for a Twins team in the past 50 years in 2019/20. I know

What a bunch of Debbie downers.  This team plays division winning baseball and it's not good enough? It is as worse than the years they couldn't touch 500 baseball? I bet you all are the one's that sa

Levine hasn't shown he can make first rate trades ...

 

I am looking forward to the season but since the knives are out for you, I will have to agree with you here. They just haven’t pulled the trigger on the big one. Syndergaard might have been acquired in 2019 for Buxton, who reached his peak value on July 31 that year. Before that, Gerrit Cole, hundred million dollar pitcher, might have been had for the price of Nick Gordon and others. These trade ideas were discussed real time. It’s okay that they didn’t make these trades, and it should also be acceptable to point out that they could have.

 

I still like the Maeda trade, but we should temper our praise of it by acknowledging that the player we gave up was much better than expected. We’ll see how it plays out. In a hypothetical redraft, Maeda would not be the second AL starting pitcher chosen, not by a long shot, so I agree with you there, as well. Doesn’t mean I don’t like Maeda. I think he’s very good.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You make some fair points in all your posts (not the Maeda one, that's absurd on its face) but it's just to over the top homerish for me. Colone is fixing the pen?  

 

I think this team is a playoff team. If Buxton can stay healthy, he's at least a 5 WAR player. He's that good. Berrios might have one more upgrade in him. But the all-or-nothing offensive approach and the bullpen games make this a boring team to me. Others may enjoy it. This team also has a bit of "full system failure" potential - again. Hopefully, that doesn't happen.

It also doesn't look like we've done anything to be anything other than a bully to the really crappy teams and can't win in the post-season. We have little depth. We rely far too much on "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" to our bench and pen. Our minor leagues seem to have decent depth but not huge upside. Levine hasn't shown he can make first rate trades and has been mocked a bit for the Dozier fiasco when he got here and how Houston fleeced him the next year. I think its fair to say that, after this year, he will have had five years as our GM and it's not clear he did enough to build around the young core he was gifted. I don't think that's a controversial statement. 

 

Dude are you serious?  Levine is so bad the Phillies wanted him for the top job in their organization.  Do you even read about Baseaball?  https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/phillies/phillies-gm-thad-levine-twins-josh-byrnes-michael-hill  Note the words successful turn around in the article as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I am looking forward to the season but since the knives are out for you, I will have to agree with you here. They just haven’t pulled the trigger on the big one. Syndergaard might have been acquired in 2019 for Buxton, who reached his peak value on July 31 that year. Before that, Gerrit Cole, hundred million dollar pitcher, might have been had for the price of Nick Gordon and others. These trade ideas were discussed real time. It’s okay that they didn’t make these trades, and it should also be acceptable to point out that they could have.

I still like the Maeda trade, but we should temper our praise of it by acknowledging that the player we gave up was much better than expected. We’ll see how it plays out. In a hypothetical redraft, Maeda would not be the second AL starting pitcher chosen, not by a long shot, so I agree with you there, as well. Doesn’t mean I don’t like Maeda. I think he’s very good.

Maeda trade was solid. So was the Odorizzi trade. He's not helpless. But he's made bad trades and hasn't - yet - traded for elite players. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am looking forward to the season but since the knives are out for you, I will have to agree with you here. They just haven’t pulled the trigger on the big one. Syndergaard might have been acquired in 2019 for Buxton, who reached his peak value on July 31 that year. Before that, Gerrit Cole, hundred million dollar pitcher, might have been had for the price of Nick Gordon and others. These trade ideas were discussed real time. It’s okay that they didn’t make these trades, and it should also be acceptable to point out that they could have.

 

I still like the Maeda trade, but we should temper our praise of it by acknowledging that the player we gave up was much better than expected. We’ll see how it plays out. In a hypothetical redraft, Maeda would not be the second AL starting pitcher chosen, not by a long shot, so I agree with you there, as well. Doesn’t mean I don’t like Maeda. I think he’s very good.

You mention the Maeda trade, but apparently that doesn’t count. The guy just put in the best performance they’ve gotten from a starter since Johan. Short season caveat, of course, but holy cow. Some people can’t be satisfied.

 

Also worth noting they gave up a shortstop who flamed out in A-ball for Odorizzi. He’s not Syndergaard (everyone would complain about the stupid trade for an injured starter if we acquired him), but he was an All-Star and pitched very well in the 2019 ALDS.

 

Falvey is a really good POBO.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Maeda trade was solid. So was the Odorizzi trade. He's not helpless. But he's made bad trades and hasn't - yet - traded for elite players. 

 

What are the bad deals? 

 

You're clearly underrating the Maeda deal, for whatever reason: the twins dealt a reliever for a starter and said starter was awesome in his first season and has a contract that's incredibly team-friendly. While the Dodgers may have gotten what they wanted as well, it's still an excellent deal for the Twins by basically reasonable measure.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You mention the Maeda trade, but apparently that doesn’t count. The guy just put in the best performance they’ve gotten from a starter since Johan. Short season caveat, of course, but holy cow. Some people can’t be satisfied.

Also worth noting they gave up a shortstop who flamed out in A-ball for Odorizzi. He’s not Syndergaard (everyone would complain about the stupid trade for an injured starter if we acquired him), but he was an All-Star and pitched very well in the 2019 ALDS.

Falvey is a really good POBO.

The Maeda trade was good, but the guy we gave up for Maeda has already played a key part in a World Series championship and is on the verge of becoming one of the premiere relievers in baseball. Is that a fair assessment? :)

 

The Odorizzi trade was a steal. There have been some other trade wins and trade losses. Syndergaard was healthy for 2019 when we could have used him, and is already rehabbing for 2021.

 

If Alcala or Duran become elite, we’ll all share a laugh about this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Maeda trade was good, but the guy we gave up for Maeda has already played a key part in a World Series championship and is on the verge of becoming one of the premiere relievers in baseball. Is that a fair assessment? :)

 

The Odorizzi trade was a steal. There have been some other trade wins and trade losses. Syndergaard was healthy for 2019 when we could have used him, and is already rehabbing for 2021.

 

If Alcala or Duran become elite, we’ll all share a laugh about this.

Agree it hurt to lose Graterol. We’ll see how he develops and if he ever starts again. Regardless, I think it’s an under appreciatd trade simply because of how good Maeda pitched and the contract he’s on. Off the top of my head, it’s arguably the best trade the organization has made since AJ went to San Francisco. I actually don’t think it really matters if Graterol becomes elite or flames out. Maeda pitched like a mad man last year and seems like he made some real improvements.

 

I just get frustrated when I see people making criticisms I don’t think are fair against people who have a really hard job that doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. Baseball should be fun.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The Maeda trade was good, but the guy we gave up for Maeda has already played a key part in a World Series championship and is on the verge of becoming one of the premiere relievers in baseball. Is that a fair assessment? :)

The Odorizzi trade was a steal. There have been some other trade wins and trade losses. Syndergaard was healthy for 2019 when we could have used him, and is already rehabbing for 2021.

If Alcala or Duran become elite, we’ll all share a laugh about this.

 

This is some big-time goal-post moving on the Maeda deal. The concern with giving up Graterol was that he'd turn into a #1 or #2 starter, not that he'd be a solid 7th inning reliever. 

 

The Syndergaard thing never made sense, no MLB club would have made that deal. There's a reason he's still with the Mets. It's one thing to say the Twins should have traded for someone that, you know, actually got traded. This is something else entirely, and not at all a legitimate line of criticism.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree it hurt to lose Graterol. We’ll see how he develops and if he ever starts again. Regardless, I think it’s an under appreciatd trade simply because of how good Maeda pitched and the contract he’s on. Off the top of my head, it’s arguably the best trade the organization has made since AJ went to San Francisco. I actually don’t think it really matters if Graterol becomes elite or flames out. Maeda pitched like a mad man last year and seems like he made some real improvements.

I just get frustrated when I see people making criticisms I don’t think are fair against people who have a really hard job that doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. Baseball should be fun.

Graterol’s success is important to consider, in my opinion, especially given the fruitless quest so far to find dominant relief pitching. Yes, the friendly Maeda contract slipped my mind there. Good reminder.
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

That's one article ranking AL rotations, not #1 starters. Do you actually think Hyun-Jun Ryu is better than Maeda? Who in Oakland's rotation is better than Maeda? Chris Bassitt??

I have seen Maeda have one great season - is it an outlier or is that who he is now.  I am always worried about the career year, especially when it is a short season.  Not ready to crown him the ace we all want.  Glad we have him, but let's see another season of similar production. Ryu 17 WAR, Maeda 7 WAR.  Who has proven the most?  And I do not claim Ryu is an ACE, but I am not ready to claim Maeda is either. 

 

I wasn't thinking Bassit, but he had 2.1 WAR last year and Maeda had 1.5.  I am not against Maeda, but I worry about overrating our players versus the rest of the teams.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Is that article about which teams have the best rotation, or the best #1 starter? Because the issue was clearly the latter.

 

Who on the A's staff is clearly better than Maeda? Who on the Blue Jays staff is clearly better?

I will say the same thing that I told Nick Nelson, Maeda has had one great season and it was a short one.  Ryu has a longer history.  Ryu 17 WAR, Maeda 7.  Do we judge players on just one year?  Is Maris the greatest HR hitter because of 1961?  

Link to post
Share on other sites

I will say the same thing that I told Nick Nelson, Maeda has had one great season and it was a short one. Ryu has a longer history. Ryu 17 WAR, Maeda 7. Do we judge players on just one year? Is Maris the greatest HR hitter because of 1961?

If was a Yankees fan in 1961, I’d want Roger Maris on my team in 1962.

 

No one has said Maeda is the greatest pitcher in the league.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Which is what I said about Gerrit Cole.

 

Sure. I wasn't responding to that, I was responding to your comment about Syndergaard.

 

But even with the trades that did really happen, fans engage in extreme hindsight bias, along the lines of why did 19 clubs or whatever pass on drafting Trout. So while it's potentially a legitimate area of discussion, it doesn't cut it to just say "Gerrit Cole" as a knock on the front office without context. You can play that game with all 30 clubs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The current regime is basically 0-6 in series games. The 2017 was still Ryan's team. 

 

2020 and 2019 once again proved if you do not score runs it is hard to win in the playoffs. To have the starter have to pitch a shutout to win is a high expectation to the point of being impossible. The bats have to hit  They have done nothing to change that

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You mention the Maeda trade, but apparently that doesn’t count. The guy just put in the best performance they’ve gotten from a starter since Johan. Short season caveat, of course, but holy cow. Some people can’t be satisfied.

 

It was 11 starts. 66 innings. Meada has had runs like that in nearly every season

2016 - First 12 starts, 70 innings. 2.70 era

2017 - 11 starts (counting 2 innings in relief b/c i don't want to do math) 65inning, 2.63 era

2018 - 11 starts 64innings, 2.64 era

etc

 

He had a nice season but it was only 66 innings. Phil Hughes gave us a 6+ WAR season. Liriano and Pavano and Berrios and Ervin all gave us better seasons since Johan. 

 

My complaint in this thread hasn't been to say Maeda sucks or the Twins suck. I think in pretty much each post I said this is probably a playoff team. My point has been that some of the exuberance for this team is a bit misplaced. The idea that Cole is the only starter on a contender that you'd take ahead of Maeda is insane. I'd take Berrios over Maeda and I wouldn't be shocked if Pineda is better than him this year. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I will say the same thing that I told Nick Nelson, Maeda has had one great season and it was a short one.  Ryu has a longer history.  Ryu 17 WAR, Maeda 7.  Do we judge players on just one year?  Is Maris the greatest HR hitter because of 1961?  

Maeda has had only one other season as a full time starter. That was a rookie year when he managed a respectable 3.4 ERA. It is hard to make much of a declaration of greatness, nor that he is mediocre. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It was 11 starts. 66 innings. Meada has had runs like that in nearly every season

2016 - First 12 starts, 70 innings. 2.70 era

2017 - 11 starts (counting 2 innings in relief b/c i don't want to do math) 65inning, 2.63 era

2018 - 11 starts 64innings, 2.64 era

etc

 

He had a nice season but it was only 66 innings. Phil Hughes gave us a 6+ WAR season. Liriano and Pavano and Berrios and Ervin all gave us better seasons since Johan. 

 

My complaint in this thread hasn't been to say Maeda sucks or the Twins suck. I think in pretty much each post I said this is probably a playoff team. My point has been that some of the exuberance for this team is a bit misplaced. The idea that Cole is the only starter on a contender that you'd take ahead of Maeda is insane. I'd take Berrios over Maeda and I wouldn't be shocked if Pineda is better than him this year. 

What year was that when Pineda pitched a whole year with an ERA under 3.5?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It was 11 starts. 66 innings. Meada has had runs like that in nearly every season

2016 - First 12 starts, 70 innings. 2.70 era

2017 - 11 starts (counting 2 innings in relief b/c i don't want to do math) 65inning, 2.63 era

2018 - 11 starts 64innings, 2.64 era

etc

 

He had a nice season but it was only 66 innings. Phil Hughes gave us a 6+ WAR season. Liriano and Pavano and Berrios and Ervin all gave us better seasons since Johan. 

 

My complaint in this thread hasn't been to say Maeda sucks or the Twins suck. I think in pretty much each post I said this is probably a playoff team. My point has been that some of the exuberance for this team is a bit misplaced. The idea that Cole is the only starter on a contender that you'd take ahead of Maeda is insane. I'd take Berrios over Maeda and I wouldn't be shocked if Pineda is better than him this year. 

 

Look I could see where you were coming from in that first post in some ways.  Yeah I am concerned about how Maeda will do over a full season.  Yeah HR or bust hasn't seemed to work well in playoffs.  Would I have liked to see slightly better pen arms especially in playoffs, you bet. I haven't looked into your comment about the defense last year but it could be right, I don't know. Sure this team could exceed expectations or fall flat we have seen them do both.  

 

However, the hyperbole about "This is the least I've cared about a Twins team going into a season in over fifteen years" and "This should be a make or break year for the FO and it doesn't look much different than other offseasons."  Those statements kind of set me off.  I just vehemently disagree with both of them.  You certainly have a right to your opinion but when posted also a right to be questioned.

 

Honestly I am not trying to be a dick, but I think you are lacking some objectivity in some of your assessments.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The lead is being buried. Instead of pretending like it was just luck of the draw, live and learn kind of thing.....why aren’t they getting roundly criticized for putting together a bullpen that relied on the rotting corpse of Sergio Romo in the ninth inning of a playoff game? Everyone could see that guy was cooked. Awful decision making and roster management.

Replacing May with Colome doesn’t get this team over the hump. We’re now seeing them trying recycle the skeletal remains of what used to be Hansel Robles, fresh off an ERA over 10. Why? Because he was a bargain....gee, I wonder why. How much you want to bet we see him blow it in a huge spot?

Then, next year, they’ll again make a couple of inconsequential moves....we’ll again pretend that they’re the brilliant American Pickers out there finding diamonds in the rough, and things are going to be different.

 

And yet "the brilliant American Pickers out there finding diamonds in the rough" had the 5th best bullpen in all of baseball.  Man those other 25 GM's must really be bad.  Of those that were worse than this FO includes the World Series winning Dodgers as well who came in 10th.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/top-bullpens-in-mlb-2020

Link to post
Share on other sites

It was 11 starts. 66 innings. Meada has had runs like that in nearly every season

2016 - First 12 starts, 70 innings. 2.70 era

2017 - 11 starts (counting 2 innings in relief b/c i don't want to do math) 65inning, 2.63 era

2018 - 11 starts 64innings, 2.64 era

etc

 

He had a nice season but it was only 66 innings. Phil Hughes gave us a 6+ WAR season. Liriano and Pavano and Berrios and Ervin all gave us better seasons since Johan.

 

My complaint in this thread hasn't been to say Maeda sucks or the Twins suck. I think in pretty much each post I said this is probably a playoff team. My point has been that some of the exuberance for this team is a bit misplaced. The idea that Cole is the only starter on a contender that you'd take ahead of Maeda is insane. I'd take Berrios over Maeda and I wouldn't be shocked if Pineda is better than him this year.

Maeda—and any other pitcher—can only play in the games that are scheduled. He pitched extremely well in those games last year. A full season at that level would produce north of 6 fWAR. Liriano had one or two years that were comparable. You mentioned Hughes’ one good season. Ervin Santana was water in the desert, but he never had a season for the Twins that came close.

 

Obviously Maeda is a regression candidate. No one has said he’ll perfectly reproduce his 2020 over a full season. But he did post career bests in K%, BB%, K/9, BB/9, K/BB, exit velocity, and hard hit %. And he didn’t outperform his peripherals. They all support his excellent performance and suggest that he made real strides.

 

My gripe is that some folks don’t seem to appreciate how good Maeda actually was last year, or that the front office made a smart and creative trade to bring him here.

 

I also don’t understand the pessimism. I don’t expect the Twins to win 100 games or anything (though I happen to believe they’re a legit World Series contender), but to say this team is less exciting than the squads of the mid-teens—when the rotation consisted of people like Cole De Vries, Sam Deduno, and Pedro Hernandez—is mind boggling and frankly comes off as trolling.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

My complaint in this thread hasn't been to say Maeda sucks or the Twins suck. I think in pretty much each post I said this is probably a playoff team. My point has been that some of the exuberance for this team is a bit misplaced. 

Your point was that the Twins play (and I quote) "boring baseball." The Twins who have won two straight division titles; who set an all-time HR record two years ago; who have dynamic talent at every position on the field; who will spend more on payroll this year than ever before in franchise history ... are boring. Just not doing enough to get you excited. 

 

If you feel that way, fine. But acknowledging and celebrating these things doesn't make us homers, it makes us fans.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...