Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account

Max Kepler and the Cost of Silence


As for Max, I would understand his position more if he doesn't intend for the US to be his permanent home. If I was playing baseball in Japan but didn't intend to retire there I would certainly avoid publicly involving myself in something like this. However, I don't sense that is the case with Max. I could be wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 If I can get through with that message to but a few people, I will have accomplished something. 

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you aren't spreading the message.  Seriously, scientifically, you are not.  At least not the way that you want.  You are only "spreading" your message by making people more resistant to it.  The kind of things that you are doing (blocking traffic, attacking people who do things differently than you want, using inflammatory language - and check the comments, clearly your language was inflammatory, whether or not you meant it to be) have been proven to have a negative effect on both changing minds and also enacting societal change.  You will not change minds based on how you are acting, and in fact you are making it less likely that people will do the things that you want.

 

If someone doesn't like speaking out, then they will be even less likely to consider speaking out as a result of your tactics.  

If someone is neutral for speaking out, they will be less likely to speak out as a result of your tactics.

The only thing that you might do is make someone that was already leaning toward speaking out somewhat more likely to speak out even more.  Also you will feel better about yourself (as you hurt what you are professing to try to help). 

 

Here is a source on that:

https://www.psypost.org/2020/05/new-psychology-research-finds-extreme-protest-actions-reduce-popular-support-for-social-movements-56906?fbclid=IwAR0dXw0ft4J_iu-o33nxd0jzC5Dq6i6ARBhSQFHkDAFEqDa8yJVVUd8UKFw

 

For a particularly relevant example, the article spells out how democrats push people away from, e.g., voting for democrats because of the way that they attack Trump.  Did you know that lots of democrats are actually helping Trump by the way in which they attack Trump, by making independents not want to associate with the democrats?  That's a heckuva backfire. 

 

You aren't changing the mind of anyone who thinks differently than you do.  To do that, you need to humbly think about the views of other people, not attack them, and respect their viewpoints, even while you point out why you strongly strongly disagree.  Look to MLK and how he talked to various white pastors who told him to be more "patient" as he waited for social change.  A (in retrospect) despicable thing that they were asking, to be clear.  Yet in his replies he was always overly courteous, going to great lengths to emphasize how he did truly understand what they were doing what they were doing and asking what they were asking.  If a black man born in Georgia in 1929 can respect the viewpoints of opponents, so can you.  

 

What you are doing is purely being done for your sake, so that you feel good about yourself.  And that is fine!  It's good to take care of yourself, and make yourself happy in life.  If you want to do that by pretending that you are helping a cause by insulting people that disagree with you such that you actually hurt this cause, well, there are worse ways to spend your time.

 

That said, if you ACTUALLY want to convince people, then you need to do so respectfully, and you need to truly try to empathize with people that think differently rather than you do.  If you want to ACTUALLY make a difference, then start humanizing businessmen, bankers, suburbanites, the highly religious, rural white uneducated voters, or other people that are frequently on the opposite sides of the debate from you.  Try to understand these groups of people.  Try to understand and truly *feel* their hurts and fears and dreams, rather than dismiss them and ridicule them.  Once you understand these people that you disagree with, approach them on their level, rather than attacking them from yours.  I know that it feels better to just attack the viewpoints of people who believe different things, and to take fantastically bold actions to show just how strongly you feel (such as blocking traffic on I-35).  But you are actively making the things that you want to happen LESS likely to happen by what doing things in this way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Kepler stumbled into this topic, if we're charitable about his motivations for that photo. It's fair to critique how he followed up.

 

But why are we holding the silent players to a different standard than Kep?
 

Ash, this is a great point and one that I could've addressed more directly in the OP. The reason I was especially sensitive to, and put off by, Kepler's post is because I was already dispirited by the lack of vocal advocacy coming out of the Twins organization. I hoped to see a number of people follow Baldelli's lead, but as you pointed out, the remarks have been pretty sparse.

 

I see Karl Anthony Towns standing with others for a rally at City Hall. I see Vikings players speaking out emphatically. In other baseball markets I see statements of true conviction (the Rays for instance). The Twins just haven't stepped up in that kind of way, from what I've seen. Their actions generally seem timid and reactive. This makes me acutely sad, both because I want the Twins to be an integral part of our community and I rue the sport's larger struggles to connect with African Americans.

 

So the Kepler thing is just a microcosm of my general disappointment, but it was a clear and newsworthy example to center on. 

 

 

This whole leader thing is something created by others that want heroes. Just because someone is a professional athlete, does not make them a leader. It makes them lucky. Lucky that their natural talent and hard work has gotten them something others aspire to. It doesn't automatically give them a platform that they have to aspire to or engage in. 

This is just where we fundamentally disagree. It's not about me wanting players to be heroes, it's about me recognizing that someone like Kepler DOES have a large platform and IS influential in this community. Young people look up to him. Fans pay attention to him. He has 67K followers on Instagram.

 

In my opinion the $35 million commitment the team made to him last year calls for more than playing baseball. It calls for being a representative of the franchise and city. Does that mean he needs to be an activist? No. I'm not asking him to. But in my opinion it does entail a certain level of social responsibility, like understanding and empathizing with a humanitarian crisis in the city where you play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you aren't spreading the message.  Seriously, scientifically, you are not.  At least not the way that you want.  You are only "spreading" your message by making people more resistant to it.  The kind of things that you are doing (blocking traffic, attacking people who do things differently than you want, using inflammatory language - and check the comments, clearly your language was inflammatory, whether or not you meant it to be) have been proven to have a negative effect on both changing minds and also enacting societal change.  You will not change minds based on how you are acting, and in fact you are making it less likely that people will do the things that you want.

 

If someone doesn't like speaking out, then they will be even less likely to consider speaking out as a result of your tactics.  

If someone is neutral for speaking out, they will be less likely to speak out as a result of your tactics.

The only thing that you might do is make someone that was already leaning toward speaking out somewhat more likely to speak out even more.  Also you will feel better about yourself (as you hurt what you are professing to try to help). 

 

Here is a source on that:

https://www.psypost.org/2020/05/new-psychology-research-finds-extreme-protest-actions-reduce-popular-support-for-social-movements-56906?fbclid=IwAR0dXw0ft4J_iu-o33nxd0jzC5Dq6i6ARBhSQFHkDAFEqDa8yJVVUd8UKFw

 

For a particularly relevant example, the article spells out how democrats push people away from, e.g., voting for democrats because of the way that they attack Trump.  Did you know that lots of democrats are actually helping Trump by the way in which they attack Trump, by making independents not want to associate with the democrats?  That's a heckuva backfire. 

 

You aren't changing the mind of anyone who thinks differently than you do.  To do that, you need to humbly think about the views of other people, not attack them, and respect their viewpoints, even while you point out why you strongly strongly disagree.  Look to MLK and how he talked to various white pastors who told him to be more "patient" as he waited for social change.  A (in retrospect) despicable thing that they were asking, to be clear.  Yet in his replies he was always overly courteous, going to great lengths to emphasize how he did truly understand what they were doing what they were doing and asking what they were asking.  If a black man born in Georgia in 1929 can respect the viewpoints of opponents, so can you.  

 

What you are doing is purely being done for your sake, so that you feel good about yourself.  And that is fine!  It's good to take care of yourself, and make yourself happy in life.  If you want to do that by pretending that you are helping a cause by insulting people that disagree with you such that you actually hurt this cause, well, there are worse ways to spend your time.

 

That said, if you ACTUALLY want to convince people, then you need to do so respectfully, and you need to truly try to empathize with people that think differently rather than you do.  If you want to ACTUALLY make a difference, then start humanizing businessmen, bankers, suburbanites, the highly religious, rural white uneducated voters, or other people that are frequently on the opposite sides of the debate from you.  Try to understand these groups of people.  Try to understand and truly *feel* their hurts and fears and dreams, rather than dismiss them and ridicule them.  Once you understand these people that you disagree with, approach them on their level, rather than attacking them from yours.  I know that it feels better to just attack the viewpoints of people who believe different things, and to take fantastically bold actions to show just how strongly you feel (such as blocking traffic on I-35).  But you are actively making the things that you want to happen LESS likely to happen by what doing things in this way. 

Research also shows the longer and louder the protest the more likely for success 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

h2oface, on 02 Jun 2020 - 1:31 PM, said:

This whole leader thing is something created by others that want heroes. Just because someone is a professional athlete, does not make them a leader. It makes them lucky. Lucky that their natural talent and hard work has gotten them something others aspire to. It doesn't automatically give them a platform that they have to aspire to or engage in.

 

This is just where we fundamentally disagree. It's not about me wanting players to be heroes, it's about me recognizing that someone like Kepler DOES have a large platform and IS influential in this community. Young people look up to him. Fans pay attention to him. He has 67K followers on Instagram.

 

In my opinion the $35 million commitment the team made to him last year calls for more than playing baseball. It calls for being a representative of the franchise and city. Does that mean he needs to be an activist? No. I'm not asking him to. But in my opinion it does entail a certain level of social responsibility, like understanding and empathizing with a humanitarian crisis in the city where you play.

 

Well, I certainly understand that is your opinion of this 27 year old that was born in Germany, the son of an American mother (daughter of a U.S. Army intelligence officer, who moved around the country and the world as her father received different postings, finally setting in San Antonio, Texas as a teenager - Max might even be able to get dual citizenship?) and a German father. And we do fundamentally disagree. But I doubt he isn't fullfilling his contract with the Twins, and I doubt there is language in it that obligates him to some of the things you are assuming are not in his plans for the future. I know you are of a generation that views the world in a significant lens through twitter and instagram feeds and likes. The story isn't over, and neither is Kepler's part in it, probably. Thanks for speaking out. Words are great. Actions will do more, and I suspect you have some up your sleeve. But yup. I don't put baseball players, or professional athletes on a pedestal, or expect them to be more than an athlete for the short time of their lives that they can. I just expect them to get better every year, and be MVPs. The whole team. So there is my fanciful, demanding expectation. And it only leads me to disappointment. Such is my tragic life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you aren't spreading the message. Seriously, scientifically, you are not. At least not the way that you want. You are only "spreading" your message by making people more resistant to it. The kind of things that you are doing (blocking traffic, attacking people who do things differently than you want, using inflammatory language - and check the comments, clearly your language was inflammatory, whether or not you meant it to be) have been proven to have a negative effect on both changing minds and also enacting societal change. You will not change minds based on how you are acting, and in fact you are making it less likely that people will do the things that you want.

 

If someone doesn't like speaking out, then they will be even less likely to consider speaking out as a result of your tactics.

If someone is neutral for speaking out, they will be less likely to speak out as a result of your tactics.

The only thing that you might do is make someone that was already leaning toward speaking out somewhat more likely to speak out even more. Also you will feel better about yourself (as you hurt what you are professing to try to help).

 

Here is a source on that:

https://www.psypost.org/2020/05/new-psychology-research-finds-extreme-protest-actions-reduce-popular-support-for-social-movements-56906?fbclid=IwAR0dXw0ft4J_iu-o33nxd0jzC5Dq6i6ARBhSQFHkDAFEqDa8yJVVUd8UKFw

 

For a particularly relevant example, the article spells out how democrats push people away from, e.g., voting for democrats because of the way that they attack Trump. Did you know that lots of democrats are actually helping Trump by the way in which they attack Trump, by making independents not want to associate with the democrats? That's a heckuva backfire.

 

You aren't changing the mind of anyone who thinks differently than you do. To do that, you need to humbly think about the views of other people, not attack them, and respect their viewpoints, even while you point out why you strongly strongly disagree. Look to MLK and how he talked to various white pastors who told him to be more "patient" as he waited for social change. A (in retrospect) despicable thing that they were asking, to be clear. Yet in his replies he was always overly courteous, going to great lengths to emphasize how he did truly understand what they were doing what they were doing and asking what they were asking. If a black man born in Georgia in 1929 can respect the viewpoints of opponents, so can you.

 

What you are doing is purely being done for your sake, so that you feel good about yourself. And that is fine! It's good to take care of yourself, and make yourself happy in life. If you want to do that by pretending that you are helping a cause by insulting people that disagree with you such that you actually hurt this cause, well, there are worse ways to spend your time.

 

That said, if you ACTUALLY want to convince people, then you need to do so respectfully, and you need to truly try to empathize with people that think differently rather than you do. If you want to ACTUALLY make a difference, then start humanizing businessmen, bankers, suburbanites, the highly religious, rural white uneducated voters, or other people that are frequently on the opposite sides of the debate from you. Try to understand these groups of people. Try to understand and truly *feel* their hurts and fears and dreams, rather than dismiss them and ridicule them. Once you understand these people that you disagree with, approach them on their level, rather than attacking them from yours. I know that it feels better to just attack the viewpoints of people who believe different things, and to take fantastically bold actions to show just how strongly you feel (such as blocking traffic on I-35). But you are actively making the things that you want to happen LESS likely to happen by what doing things in this way.

Well written/articulated and thought out post. I disagree with you, but respect your work.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where is the outrage on this site over a black man killing a white police officer up here in Grand Forks ND a week ago?

 Where is the outrage over millions of babies being murdered in this country over the past almost 50 years?

 

 

This should have stayed Twins Daily and kept the topics to baseball. Now you have division where it wasn't before. Good job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

It always seems like people have extra vitriol when sports stars/analysts/bloggers comment on anything other than sports. The anger in these comments reflects that. I certainly respect those who don't want to read this article. But scroll past it if that's the case.

Or musicians.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

It's funny how the people who agree with this post think that they've thought through the issue more thoroughly and that anyone who thinks harder comes up with their viewpoint.  As if it isn't thought through to see it differently.

 

Yes, sloop, thank you, that is correct. This is an issue on which there's one legitimate way to look at it. If you have a different "viewpoint" on this one particular issue, it's because you either haven't thought through it or are incapable of doing so. The post that's currently a couple above the end as I'm writing this, somehow equating outrage over the police's systemic abuse of their unlimited power and position of public trust to the killing of one police officer and to the abortion issue, is really a perfect illustration of this. This is one of those uncommon cases where there's a right way to look at it, and a stupid way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, sloop, thank you, that is correct. This is an issue on which there's one legitimate way to look at it. If you have a different "viewpoint" on this one particular issue, it's because you either haven't thought through it or are incapable of doing so. The post that's currently a couple above the end as I'm writing this, somehow equating outrage over the police's systemic abuse of their unlimited power and position of public trust to the killing of one police officer and to the abortion issue, is really a perfect illustration of this. This is one of those uncommon cases where there's a right way to look at it, and a stupid way.

I have a pretty radical stance on police brutality and I hesitate to call an opinion stupid, as that removes intelligent thought and ability to choose.

 

Some people definitely have an ignorant opinion of race and society but stupidity isn’t the same thing as ignorance.

 

But also, some people have vitriolic opinion, which is worse than stupidity.

 

But still, I don’t think that’s a particularly useful word to use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Baseball is not on and clearly the TD folks saw that they needed to dream up a controversy to get people aggravated about, so they decided to pick on a guy who PULLED HIS POST after making a mistake.  Kepler is from from a military family.  Folks in the military generally also support the police.  Unless I’m mistaken, we’re not saying that ALL COPS are murderers right?

Max Kepler's parents were ballet dancers.

 

Pretty much the same thing as military, I understand, but the uniforms are quite different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is one of those uncommon cases where there's a right way to look at it, and a stupid way.

I’m curious, Bill. What is the “it” you think is being argued about? Can you define the thing that is being debated? Or can you tell me the two positions (the right one and the stupid one).

 

Tell me as if you’re explaining it to a child. (That sounds snarky, but that’s not my intent. I just mean to put the “it” in the most clear terms you can.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Someone else explained something about his mom’s dad being military, but I quote this post only because the last sentence is major league funny.

Heh, you get it's tongue in cheek but no matter how you shake it, Kepler is not "from" a military family, as even being a generation removed from the German military is quite different than what we, as Americans, think of a military family.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where is the outrage on this site over a black man killing a white police officer up here in Grand Forks ND a week ago?

By no means do I diminish the job that police do every day. The example you provide is suitable evidence. Being a police officer is a dangerous job.

 

George Floyd, equally, is evidence that being a black person in the US is a dangerous job.

 

There is good reason why the first would be true, no good reason at all the second should be.

 

I don't remember the last time I read about a black police officer killing a white civilian. That would be the opposite to discuss.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The comments in this thread so perfectly illustrate why this article was necessary.

The fact that so many of you think it’s acceptable to escape world issues whenever convenient is exactly the point of Nick’s article.

We need to be better than this.

 

Let's not escape issues. Let's address them head on. I'm going to introduce you to Larry Elder. Please take the time to watch his 5 minute video and watch the clip of the interview with the "classic liberal" Dave Rubin. After viewing, please let me know: Which points that he made are incorrect. I submit this because you challenged us not to escape, and I'm challenging you to look beyond your world view. You, Nick, and any other site owners that agree with Nicks column. Thank you in advance for viewing these.

 

https://www.prageru.com/video/black-america-needs-fathers/

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, and again not to diminish law enforcement, but they are not a uniquely dangerous job. From FBI data: "89 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2019". There are approximately 700,000 US law enforcement officers.

 

By contrast, there were, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 142 on the job fatalities, for "First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping workers," coming from a workforce of around 100,000. That put them #10 on the list of most dangerous; you can consult the link I provided to see a list of the other 9 above that.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I don't remember the last time I read about a black police officer killing a white civilian. That would be the opposite to discuss.

Just a few years ago, Justine Damond was shot by a black officer.

 

None of this disproves that police shoot first and ask questions second.

 

And that's the point. Black people are disproportionately targeted but they are not the only victims.

 

I cannot see a single reason why a Minnesotan would be against police reform after Castile, Damond, and Floyd happening within a 3-4 year period.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Because you don't understand technology, here we go.

 

https://www.raceforward.org/videos/systemic-racism

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/02/we-who-love-america/553991/

 

https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-on-systemic-racism-and-police-violence-usa/a-53642476

 

For every one black person who will defend your point, I can find 100 black people to refute it.

 

Stop living within your bias, start listening to the community, and hear their message.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Because you don't understand technology". Not sure why there's a jab but OK. I'm not as well versed on technology as you. Whaddya gonna do. I can take you on a pool table or in foosball. 

 

Outside of that. My request was... Which of his points are incorrect? I'll gladly go back and forth with videos and pick them apart if you'd like. I'd just like you to go first.

 

"Stop living with your bias". You unfortunately don't have authorization to tell me to get rid of anything, nor I you. You have your own bias and instead of using a condescending tone of arrogance I'm challenging you by giving you alternate views and maybe you'll pick up a different way of thinking about an issue. 

 

Listen to what community? There are a lot of communities in MN. There are a lot of smaller communities within those communities. 

 

In 1972 a reporter couldn't understand how Richard Nixon won in a landslide. That reporter said, "I don't know anyone who voted for him." You are in your own community. If you've noticed the comments on Nick's article you'll find not everyone agrees with your community. 

 

I came into this with no hostility and the sole intention of hearing and sharing different viewpoints. The choice is yours.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, and again not to diminish law enforcement, but they are not a uniquely dangerous job. From FBI data: "89 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2019". There are approximately 700,000 US law enforcement officers.

 

By contrast, there were, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 142 on the job fatalities, for "First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping workers," coming from a workforce of around 100,000. That put them #10 on the list of most dangerous; you can consult the link I provided to see a list of the other 9 above that.

Imagine the outrage if Kepler would have worn a lawn service mask.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

"Because you don't understand technology". Not sure why there's a jab but OK. I'm not as well versed on technology as you. Whaddya gonna do. I can take you on a pool table or in foosball. 

 

Outside of that. My request was... Which of his points are incorrect? I'll gladly go back and forth with videos and pick them apart if you'd like. I'd just like you to go first.

 

"Stop living with your bias". You unfortunately don't have authorization to tell me to get rid of anything, nor I you. You have your own bias and instead of using a condescending tone of arrogance I'm challenging you by giving you alternate views and maybe you'll pick up a different way of thinking about an issue. 

 

Listen to what community? There are a lot of communities in MN. There are a lot of smaller communities within those communities. 

 

In 1972 a reporter couldn't understand how Richard Nixon won in a landslide. That reporter said, "I don't know anyone who voted for him." You are in your own community. If you've noticed the comments on Nick's article you'll find not everyone agrees with your community. 

 

I came into this with no hostility and the sole intention of hearing and sharing different viewpoints. The choice is yours.

The point is that if you listen to 100 black people, they'll tell you a pretty unified story. 

Picking a single black person who confirms your belief structure isn't exactly honest or useful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cannot see a single reason why a Minnesotan would be against police reform after Castile, Damond, and Floyd happening within a 3-4 year period.

If you had to guess off the top of your head, how many commenters in this thread think there’s no cause for reform? Or what percentage if that’s easier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The point is that if you listen to 100 black people, they'll tell you a pretty unified story. 

Picking a single black person who confirms your belief structure isn't exactly honest or useful.

 

Nick Nelson quoted one person - Chris Cuomo. Because he quoted him that was useful? OK. What's the magic # of people I should get because there are plenty. I used one very educated man as a reference and his points are what matters. Not how many people make points. If you don't want to address the points he makes that is fine. I understand because his arguments cannot be dismantled. So either you refused to watch the videos which means you refuse to get rid of your bias or you watched the videos and you know that every argument he makes is true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Nick Nelson quoted one person - Chris Cuomo. Because he quoted him that was useful? OK. What's the magic # of people I should get because there are plenty. I used one very educated man as a reference and his points are what matters. Not how many people make points. If you don't want to address the points he makes that is fine. I understand because his arguments cannot be dismantled. So either you refused to watch the videos which means you refuse to get rid of your bias or you watched the videos and you know that every argument he makes is true.

I literally listed five videos that rebutted your asinine point.

It's pretty apparent you didn't watch them.

But I watched your video. I disagreed, which is why I posted those links.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the person who posted right above you is a pretty good candidate.

Let’s ask him.

 

But also, I’m looking for your total or percentage guess. Because I would guess it is a remarkably low number, and the feeling I got (from the earlier post of yours that I quoted) is that you might think it’s a large number. I’m trying to establish whether my interpretation is correct or if I’m missing your intended meaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Please tell me exactly what is so offensive about my post. The fact I’m mad that we’ve made so little progress in the past 55 years?

I think you are not being intellectually honest. You say we made so little progress in 55 years? I call BS. Exhibit 1: We elected and reelected a black man as President. He stirred up old racial animosities and that hurt the country. But a racist country does not elect him. Period..

 

55 years ago we had some blacks playing baseball, basketball and football. Now we have many blacks in those sports.

 

55 years ago we didn't have many blacks in Congress, the Senate or in Governors offices. You can't say that now.

 

In order to say there has been little progress, you have to ignore reality. We made great progress, until Obama. He set us back by stirring up racial divisions. .  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The point is that if you listen to 100 black people, they'll tell you a pretty unified story. 

Picking a single black person who confirms your belief structure isn't exactly honest or useful.

I disagree with that comment. Not all blacks thing alike. To say they all do is a racist and invalid generalization.  Its as wrong a comment as "If you don't vote Biden then you ain't black"

 

Last I checked, people still think with their brain, not their skin (color). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

The Twins Daily Caretaker Fund
The Twins Daily Caretaker Fund

You all care about this site. The next step is caring for it. We’re asking you to caretake this site so it can remain the premiere Twins community on the internet.

×
×
  • Create New...