Why Astudillo in RF and Marwin at 3B?

[jorgenswest]

Those numbers don’t favor Astudillo with the exception that he has a slightly higher barrels at 6.1 over 5.8.

 

I think it is helpful in combining Marwin with his previous numbers to see if there has been a change from the guy we might have expected. I don’t see it. He is hitting the ball hard and taking good at bats. His BABIP is .192.

 

I don’t know if it is helpful to compare Marwin against Willians with that data. They have such different profiles. Willians can be successful with the high volume of weaker contact he sprays all over the field.

[Riverbrian]

 

Those numbers don’t favor Astudillo with the exception that he has a slightly higher barrels at 6.1 over 5.8.

I think it is helpful in combining Marwin with his previous numbers to see if there has been a change from the guy we might have expected. I don’t see it. He is hitting the ball hard and taking good at bats. His BABIP is .192.

I don’t know if it is helpful to compare Marwin against Willians with that data. They have such different profiles. Willians can be successful with the high volume of weaker contact he sprays all over the field.

 

I get it. In the end, I'm not against Marwin Gonzalez... whatever is happening right now... I don't expect it continue all year because I think he will also get hot at some point. There are ups and downs throughout the year. I'm absolutely not suggesting complete banishment from the lineup and I really appreciate the data you provided.   

 

But I am suggesting that he could play a little less right now and I am suggesting it's possible that being locked down as the every day 3B is not the ideal use of Marwin in consideration of his skill set and I am suggesting that if Astudillo is getting limited starts while Marwin plays every day in considration of current production, it potentially compromises the team at the moment (a compromise no one will feel if we hit 5 home runs a game) and is also unfair to Astudillo who is really trying to win a major league job.  

 

But under no circumstances am I calling for a complete benching of Marwin or some sort of getaway day type deployment. 

[rv78]

First of all, my view is biased. Never cared for the Marwin signing from the get go and his slow start has not changed my mind, imagine that! I truely think Marwin is over-rated and that is based clearly only because of his versatility. Offensively and defensively he is just an average ball player wherever you put him. With Cave proven to be a backup outfielder last season and Astudillo and Austin as capable backups in the infield and at catcher I might add, the Marwin signing made no sense to me. It would have been 100 times better to add another capable arm in the bullpen. 

 

When Sano comes back where does Marwin go? It is obvious that Cron based on his play so far this season deserves to play every day at 1B. Schoop and Polanco are solidly intrenched at 2B and SS. Sano is your 3B of the future so unless he is unable to play every day he should be at 3B as much as possible. The trio of Rosario, Buxton and Kepler should also be in the lineup every day. Cruz has DH locked up. Garver deserves to play catcher as much as possible based on his start to the season. Adrianza is a better backup in the infield based on his defensive ability to play SS as well as the other spots even tho his bat is as weak as Marwins right now. I like the fact that Astudillo can catch and would prefer him to be the backup to Garver. Unfortunately his injury may have spelled his demise. Couple that with the clear view that Baldelli is in love with Marwin despite Astudillo being more productive. The return of Sano will bring the end to Astudillo. So the question of why is whoever playing wherever won't matter much longer.

[Doomtints]

Marwin Gonzalez is terrible. Astudillo is not terrible. What more do you need to know?

 

The Twins gave Gonzalez $12M when his market value is five. And he will be around next year too, haha?

[jorgenswest]

Marwin hasn’t changed from the player I expected which is the 2018 Marwin.

 

The production he can control which is taking good at bats and making good contact hasn’t changed.

 

He should be getting 3 starts a week when everyone is heathy and regular play when someone is out. With the exception of very good players regular play shouldn’t be every day play. .

 

I would play him less not based on his production (he is making good contact and taking good at bats) but because he profiles as an average player and is a guy you take out to keep the players on your bench sharp.

[Mr. Brooks]

I don’t know how to project Marwin going forward this week. I know I wouldn’t want my manager to make decisions on slash stats in this sample.

 

Reasons they might not be concerned from statcast.

 

He has had the best exit velocity of his career.

He has the best hard hit percentage of his career.

He barrels at 5.8% just above his career of 5.7%.

He is seeing more pitches per at bat than previous seasons.

 

The only change in the other direction is launch angle where his 7.4 is lower than his career 9.1.

 

It is early but his strike out and walk rates are at career norms. His swing and miss rate is at his career norm,

 

It doesn’t seem like anything in his batted ball profile should be driving a very low BABIP of .192.

 

Intellectually I don’t want my manager looking at a month of slash stats and using that data to determine a line up. By themselves they are not indicative of how a player will perform today. As a fan it is hard to ignore the OPS under .500 though.

His strikeout rate is not at career norms, it's by far a career worst this year, and well above his career k%.

 

His LD% is basically career low (aside from rookie season), and his groundball rate is well above his career norm.

 

It's not helpful to hit the ball hard if you are just hitting groundballs and not line drives.

[USAFChief]

I totally get the Giants situation... One of the worst opening day outfields I've ever seen.

 

I only re-hashed Austin because... If Astudillo can be trusted to play OF... like he was Wednesday and Today. Is Austin going to be that much worse... or Astudillo that much better.

 

The point being... if they are willing to sacrifice defense in the OF for Astudillo... why was the same defensive sacrifice not an option for Austin? But Yeah... I get the Giants situation. Zaidi has his work cut for him and so does the other guy running the Giants... Dave Gettleman.

 

Great first post... Welcome to Twinsdaily!!!

I would imagine they kept Astudillo over Austin because Astudillo actually DOES offer versatility.

 

In a pinch, He can play catcher, 3 infield positions, 2 corner OF positions. Austin played first base, and in a pinch corner OF, although that's questionable. Plus there's reason to believe Astudillo is the better hitter.

 

Also, the current Twins 25 man roster doesnt have CCave, so Baldelli isnt cchoosing who to play OF from the same set of options.

 

No brainer.

[Riverbrian]

 

I would imagine they kept Astudillo over Austin because Astudillo actually DOES offer versatility.

In a pinch, He can play catcher, 3 infield positions, 2 corner OF positions. Austin played first base, and in a pinch corner OF, although that's questionable. Plus there's reason to believe Astudillo is the better hitter.

Also, the current Twins 25 man roster doesnt have CCave, so Baldelli isnt cchoosing who to play OF from the same set of options.

No brainer.

 

I won't argue any of your points. You could be absolutely right. 

 

However, Cave was sent down to make room for a pitcher. That option was also there when Austin was cut.

 

I'm only throwing the thought out there since Astudillo has landed in RF since Cave was sent down. Since Astudillo playing a corner OF position is questionable and I agree with that assessment without enough information to make that assessment. 

 

If Astudillo can cover the position when Cave was sent down... Why couldn't Cave be sent down instead of cutting Austin. Why Couldn't Nelson Cruz play some OF to get his bat in the lineup in Philadelphia and at Citi Field? 

[Doomtints]

 

His strikeout rate is not at career norms, it's by far a career worst this year, and well above his career k%.

His LD% is basically career low (aside from rookie season), and his groundball rate is well above his career norm.

 

It goes without saying he is performing below his career norms. He is performing below everyone's career norms. Look at this rubbish. Look at the trend.

 

 

With a $21M contract, we know he won't get the Buxton treatment, he will get the Logan Morrison treatment.

[Riverbrian]

 

First of all, my view is biased. Never cared for the Marwin signing from the get go and his slow start has not changed my mind, imagine that! I truely think Marwin is over-rated and that is based clearly only because of his versatility. Offensively and defensively he is just an average ball player wherever you put him. With Cave proven to be a backup outfielder last season and Astudillo and Austin as capable backups in the infield and at catcher I might add, the Marwin signing made no sense to me. It would have been 100 times better to add another capable arm in the bullpen. 

 

When Sano comes back where does Marwin go? It is obvious that Cron based on his play so far this season deserves to play every day at 1B. Schoop and Polanco are solidly intrenched at 2B and SS. Sano is your 3B of the future so unless he is unable to play every day he should be at 3B as much as possible. The trio of Rosario, Buxton and Kepler should also be in the lineup every day. Cruz has DH locked up. Garver deserves to play catcher as much as possible based on his start to the season. Adrianza is a better backup in the infield based on his defensive ability to play SS as well as the other spots even tho his bat is as weak as Marwins right now. I like the fact that Astudillo can catch and would prefer him to be the backup to Garver. Unfortunately his injury may have spelled his demise. Couple that with the clear view that Baldelli is in love with Marwin despite Astudillo being more productive. The return of Sano will bring the end to Astudillo. So the question of why is whoever playing wherever won't matter much longer.

 

I am also biased so I'll join your club from the opposite door. 

 

I was for the signing of Marwin and I still am despite his month long slump. My bias stems from the oft-stated (by me) contention that super utility guys are not only necessary but critical. 

 

The cost to acquire Marwin surpassed what a player with his numbers would typically get because he is near the top of a very small pile of super utility guys. The pile is very small because baseball has been reluctant to create these guys (still seem reluctant in most cases) despite a growing need for them due to pitch counts and the need for larger bullpens as a result. 

 

The utility guy was created out of necessity and they are a dime a dozen all over baseball. The utility guy is necessary because there are 8 starting positions and only 4 bench spots. Due to roster limitation, you can't roster 8 backups for each of the 8 starting positions so guys on the bench have to be able to play multiple positions. Decades long standard practice is to take your 10th and 11th ranked players who are not good enough to start and turn them into utility out of a necessity that can't be avoided. Each one of these utility players have positions that they are probably best at but they need to be able to back up multiple positions out of necessity so they are not afforded the luxury of staying at one position like the starters are. The utility guy because of their 10th or 11th or 12th ranking on the depth chart will typically play on getaway days, injuries or when a starter pissed off the manager for not running out a ground ball. They don't play that much and can be picked up on a minor league contract because they are all over the place. 

 

The super-utility guy is very very rare. He is a guy who can play multiple positions, is allowed to play multiple positions and is given increased playing time because he can produce at the starter level. The Astros chose to keep Marwin as a super-utility guy and they chose to play him and he produced, which makes him a super-utility guy. For some strange reason, very few teams do this... this leaves Marwin near the top of a very small pile of super-utility players. As a result, he gets the bigger contract because Baseball has changed, pitch counts and other factors have led to larger bullpens which shrinks the size of the bench. So now baseball has decided that they want these guys but for some strange reason have been reluctant to create their own versions and end up signing the Marwin guys that other teams create.  

 

There are three major reasons why the super-utility guy is very very rare. 

 

1. It is standard practice to lock starters into static every day roles. Once a utility player becomes starter like productive and he moves up the depth chart from 10th to (1st through 8th). Almost every (not all) baseball team will then lock him into a static position and throw away his previous utility abilities like it never happened. Jose Ramirez is good example of this. They then return to the old formula of taking a 10th, 11th or 12th guy on the depth chart and make him the simple utility guy who doesn't play that often. 

 

2. Most teams do not make the effort to create super-utility guys if they have none. Only the Dodgers and Cubs have committed to either seek out these players or create their own. On a smaller scale the Astros and Rays also seem fearless when it comes to players playing multiple positions but quite to the scale of the Dodgers and Cubs. Bellinger, Baez, Bryant, Zobrist, Gurriel, Bregman and Marwin. The rest of the teams just don't do it. The rest of the teams will move players from position to position but once they move to a new position... the old position disappears like it never existed. Castellanos, Jose Ramirez, Ian Desmond off the top of my head. 

 

3. Once designated a utility player, that player will need an extraordinary set of circumstances to remove that designation. Specifically, a designated utility player isn't supposed to do well... so when they do well, it isn't believed. A designated starter is supposed to do well... so when they don't do well, it isn't believed. Therefore no matter what is actually happens on the field. The starter will get chance after chance and the utility guy will not get the chance. Fates were already sealed by simply human hubris. 

 

It's only April and I anticipate Marwin will play different positions throughout the year. But so far in April, We have paid a lot of money for a player with flexibility, put him on the roster and then removed the flexibility by locking him in at 3B. Therefore neglecting the very reason he cost as much money as he did. 

 

Which leads to the question... If Marwin and Astudillo are both in the lineup... Why Astudillo in RF and Marwin at 3B. 

 

Anyway... Yeah... I'm biased... but it has been my oft-stated contention that teams need to create depth and then flexibility will naturally happen as a result of that depth. Only the old school organizations will purposely stop depth by focusing on the pre-picked 9 players, only the old school organizations will remove flexibility off the resume of and not know how to keep it and utilize it for their benefit.

 

We have a lot of old school organizations who self inflict themselves unnecessarily. The Dodgers and Cubs are ahead of all of us because they embrace it. 

 

Anyway... that's why Marwin cost more than he produces. Not playing Marwin at multiple positions is like paying 25 bucks for a hamburger because it had bacon on it. Then throwing away the bacon and eating the plain hamburger that was also available for 10 bucks. 

[Doomtints]

 

Anyway... that's why Marwin cost more than he produces.

 

He is the second highest paid player on the team. On this team's budget, his salary is unequivocally out of line with his role, his performance, and his potential. When Sano gets back, the Twins will have a very expensive bench warmer while losing either Adrianza (essentially the same player as Gonzalez but much cheaper) or Astudillo (someone far more interesting).

[jkcarew]

Not playing Marwin at multiple positions is like paying 25 bucks for a hamburger because it had bacon on it. Then throwing away the bacon and eating the plain hamburger that was also available for 10 bucks. 

The starting 3rd baseman is out, No? Gonzalez’s bacon will get eaten when Sano is back. When Escobar was here, what did he do when Sano was out? He played 3rd base and Adrianza ‘moved around’. The question of why Astudillo didn’t (at some point) become the regular 3rd baseman is a more relevant question, IMO...and probably has to do with how the club views Astudillo’s defense there and how they view Gonzalez long-term, which probably hasn’t changed much in one month.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I am Mr. Flexibility... I have no problem with a player playing a different position.. in fact I encourage it. I'm honestly not concerned with Astudillo playing RF at face value. 

 

 

I'm glad you've come around since our off-season discussion.

 

Playing players at a lesser position has real consequences.  Flexibility is awesome, but smart flexibility is awesomer.

[Riverbrian]

 

He is the second highest paid player on the team. On this team's budget, his salary is unequivocally out of line with his role, his performance, and his potential. When Sano gets back, the Twins will have a very expensive bench warmer while losing either Adrianza (essentially the same player as Gonzalez but much cheaper) or Astudillo (someone far more interesting).

 

Here's why the Twins had to pay that money to acquire Gonzalez. 

 

Neglect

 

Decades long Neglect. 

 

The Twins along with most of the other teams in baseball have neglected this type of player for decades and have never tried to create their own super-utility player and they are still reluctant for some unknown reason to create their own to this day despite a need for them. So they have to buy the ones created by other teams. 

 

The Astros didn't neglect the concept and I have heard and read AJ Hinch say multiple times that he is really going to miss Marwin Gonzalez but the Astros don't need to pay that kind of money for a Marwin type player with Marwin type production because they know that they can create their own. They have been here before and done it. They broke through the wall and they are not going to pay that kind of money for this rarity. They have Yuli Gurriel who can play multiple positions so they can slide Tyler White into the lineup when Tyler White shows AJ Hinch that he is worth putting into the lineup at 1B. They signed Aledmys Diaz to replace Marwin because they believe that they can create another Marwin in Diaz. 

 

I was for the signing of Marwin and the cost to acquire him because we have neglected this type of player, failed to create our own and are therefore behind the Dodgers, Cubs, Rays, Astros and Brewers and I think we need to catch up yesterday. 

 

The Dodgers, Cubs, Astros, Brewers and the Rays on a cheaper scale know that depth is important and are not rostering Adrianza for getaway days.

 

 

I would have rather we created our own for cost efficiency but they showed me no indication that they were going to try do that with our existing roster. 

 

[USAFChief]

 

I won't argue any of your points. You could be absolutely right. 

 

However, Cave was sent down to make room for a pitcher. That option was also there when Austin was cut.

 

I'm only throwing the thought out there since Astudillo has landed in RF since Cave was sent down. Since Astudillo playing a corner OF position is questionable and I agree with that assessment without enough information to make that assessment. 

 

If Astudillo can cover the position when Cave was sent down... Why couldn't Cave be sent down instead of cutting Austin. Why Couldn't Nelson Cruz play some OF get his bat in the lineup in Philadelphia and at Citi Field? 

For someone who is consumed with the idea of versatility, you sure have an inexplicable fascination with Austin.

 

This isn't hard...Baldelli would prefer not to play either Astudillo or Austin in RF, and didn't have to when Cave was on the roster. But the tradeoff was made between Cave, and another pitcher, and the cost of that is Astidillo might be in the OF, where he is almost certainly a better option then Austin. 

 

I can't answer the Cruz question, except to say he's older. Perhaps we wasn't feeling great. Perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the risk to his health. Dunno.

[Riverbrian]

 

The starting 3rd baseman is out, No? Gonzalez’s bacon will get eaten when Sano is back. When Escobar was here, what did he do when Sano was out? He played 3rd base and Adrianza ‘moved around’. The question of why Astudillo didn’t (at some point) become the regular 3rd baseman is a more relevant question, IMO...and probably has to do with how the club views Astudillo’s defense there and how they view Gonzalez long-term, which probably hasn’t changed much in one month.

 

I imagine that Marwin will slide back to that every day utility role when Sano comes back and along with it the bacon that we paid for. 

 

However... in the meantime... the more relevant question that you list is the crux of what I'm asking. Why Astudillo in RF and Marwin at 3B when both are in the lineup. I don't know know what Astudillo can do in the OF... Maybe he is amazing but I have seen Marwin play the OF quite capably and do assume that Marwin is much better... and I have seen both Astudillo and Marwin play 3B and believe that Marwin is better but the difference in defensive ability is much less striking. Marwin was signed for a "every day utility role". 

 

I don't know the answer to that question and I'm not sure that I'll like the answer... especially when Astudillo is clearly outplaying Marwin in the month of April...

 

Now let's take it a step further.

 

If Astudillo who is out playing Gonzalez at the moment can play 3B capably while Sano takes his time getting ready to join the team, Marwin can remain in the every day utility role he was signed to handle. 

 

If Gonzalez can play the every day utility role... We wouldn't need Adrianza on the roster and could therefore keep Cave on the roster when we needed to call up a 13th pitcher and then we will have an actual outfielder to play RF when Buxton fouls a ball of his leg. 

 

You see what I mean... the Twins have unnecessarily rostered themselves into Astudillo playing RF when they didn't have to. All they needed to do was keep Marwin in the role he was originally signed (big money) to play. All they had to do was keep the bacon on the burger. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

I'm glad you've come around since our off-season discussion.

 

Playing players at a lesser position has real consequences.  Flexibility is awesome, but smart flexibility is awesomer.

 

I was always here... I've never been willy nilly flexibility. I still consider defense to be rather important. 

 

Where we disagreed if I recall was my belief that there are a lot of players who are capable of playing multiple positions but we don't know who they are because they have been specialized to the point of rarity. 

[Riverbrian]

 

For someone who is consumed with the idea of versatility, you sure have an inexplicable fascination with Austin.

 

This isn't hard...Baldelli would prefer not to play either Astudillo or Austin in RF, and didn't have to when Cave was on the roster. But the tradeoff was made between Cave, and another pitcher, and the cost of that is Astidillo might be in the OF, where he is almost certainly a better option then Austin. 

 

I can't answer the Cruz question, except to say he's older. Perhaps we wasn't feeling great. Perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the risk to his health. Dunno.

 

It's my fault because I make multiple side points to make my main point which leads to debate on the side points and ends up leaving my main point completely trampled on. 

 

My fascination with Austin probably stems from the idea that he isn't Logan Morrison. When Austin came to town... he was the guy who offically ended the Logan Morrison night mare. And I think his power is legit. But... trust me... He's gone and I'm OK with it. 1B only Power guys are a dime a dozen... However, Power guys like Austin who can play 1B and OF are little more valuable. 

 

But, Austin was just side point to: If Cave can be sent down because Astudillo can cover OF in his absence... I assume we have compromised OF defense. If you are willing to compromise OF defense... this compromise could have happened earlier to keep Austin around or play Cruz in NL parks.

 

And like I mentioned in the post above... If Astudillo can play 3B... Marwin can keep his super utility role and we can cut Adrianza instead of sending Cave down when we need that 13th pitcher.  

 

So I'm back to the original question... Why is Astudillo in RF and Marwin at 3B if both are in the lineup? 

 

I'll try to leave Austin out from here on out. 

 

[USAFChief]

 

It's my fault because I make multiple side points to make my main point which leads to debate on the side points and ends up leaving my main point completely trampled on. 

 

My fascination with Austin probably stems from the idea that he isn't Logan Morrison. When Austin came to town... he was the guy who offically ended the Logan Morrison night mare. And I think his power is legit. But... trust me... He's gone and I'm OK with it. 1B only Power guys are a dime a dozen... However, Power guys like Austin who can play 1B and OF are little more valuable. 

 

But, Austin was just side point to: If Cave can be sent down because Astudillo can cover OF in his absence... I assume we have compromised OF defense. If you are willing to compromise OF defense... this compromise could have happened earlier to keep Austin around or play Cruz in NL parks.

 

And like I mentioned in the post above... If Astudillo can play 3B... Marwin can keep his super utility role and we can cut Adrianza instead of sending Cave down when we need that 13th pitcher.  

 

So I'm back to the original question... Why is Astudillo in RF and Marwin at 3B if both are in the lineup? 

 

I'll try to leave Austin out from here on out. 

Dunno, but I'd assume they'd rather downgrade defense at one position...the less important one, RF...than at two positions.

 

As to the Cave/compromised OF defense question, again, Baldelli didn't need to make that choice until they sent Cave down. And they sent Cave down because someone made the decision that another pitcher was more valuable than the defensive difference between backup OFers.

[Riverbrian]

 

Dunno, but I'd assume they'd rather downgrade defense at one position...the less important one, RF...than at two positions.

 

As to the Cave/compromised OF defense question, again, Baldelli didn't need to make that choice until they sent Cave down. And they sent Cave down because someone made the decision that another pitcher was more valuable than the defensive difference between backup OFers.

 

I can buy that if that is what they think... but, I'm not seeing the bad defense at 3B from Astudillo to support it but if that is what they think... I can buy it.

 

But right now... Astudillo (pre-injury) is showing that he can contribute so to me it looks like they are really downgrading one position in order to not slightly downgrade two positions.  

[USAFChief]

 

I can buy that if that is what they think... but, I'm not seeing the bad defense at 3B from Astudillo to support it but if that is what they think... I can buy it.

 

But right now... Astudillo (pre-injury) is showing that he can contribute so to me it looks like they are really downgrading one position in order to not slightly downgrade two positions.  

Well, that would be more a question of "why start Gonzalez at 3rd instead of Astudillo?" more so than "Why Gonzalez at third and Astudillo in RF?" 

 

No?

[terrydactyls]

With the capability of buying a single team package through MLBTV.com, I've been able to see many more Twins games this year than in the past (and I live in Maine so I have no blackouts). Astrudillo appears to me to be a very adequate outfielder. He's not going to replace Buxton, Rosario, or Kepler, but he can cover for them when they need a day off. My own opinion based on nothing but personal observation is that much of the negativity towards him as an outfielder might be based on his physical appearance. He isn't long and lean so therefore, he can't be an outfielder. Having been a similarly sized player all my life, I know the prejudice. I think he has proven to the coaching staff he can play but the viewing public still can't get behind him.

[Riverbrian]

 

Well, that would be more a question of "why start Gonzalez at 3rd instead of Astudillo?" more so than "Why Gonzalez at third and Astudillo in RF?" 

 

No?

 

It goes hand in hand with the original question but it is a deviation from the original question.

 

The original question is quite simple in itself... If they are both in the lineup. Why Marwin at 3B and Astudillo in RF. It makes more sense to me defensively to reverse that. 

 

I just added a bunch of side points that piggy backed off the thought but my intention was simply that question. 

 

To your question... which I also think about... Yeah... Why indeed? 

 

The way Astudillo is hitting and looking at 3B. I know that I'd have Astudillo as my primary 3B until Sano gets healthy in 2022. Therefore returning Marwin to the every day utility guy he was signed to be, playing 3B, SS, 2B, 1B and OF.

 

Especially when the difference between Astudillo and Marwin has been so striking in April. Plus pulling Astudillo out of the catcher mix would give Garver and Castro more playing time and then we'd have that great pitch framer and the guy hitting a home run every 2 AB's in the lineup more often. 

 

To me this is a no-brainer but apparently not by the actual deployment. 

 

Instead... we clog it all up with Marwin playing 3B exclusively which is not what we paid for and he isn't hitting to make the clog really hard to explain and it is costing Astudillo and Garver AB's and they have been productive while Marwin hasn't. 

 

In the end... these are just questions... the team is winning... This ain't my Logan Morrison diatribe. 

[yarnivek1972]

I imagine that Marwin will slide back to that every day utility role when Sano comes back and along with it the bacon that we paid for.

 

However... in the meantime... the more relevant question that you list is the crux of what I'm asking. Why Astudillo in RF and Marwin at 3B when both are in the lineup. I don't know know what Astudillo can do in the OF... Maybe he is amazing but I have seen Marwin play the OF quite capably and do assume that Marwin is much better... and I have seen both Astudillo and Marwin play 3B and believe that Marwin is better but the difference in defensive ability is much less striking. Marwin was signed for a "every day utility role".

 

I don't know the answer to that question and I'm not sure that I'll like the answer... especially when Astudillo is clearly outplaying Marwin in the month of April...

 

Now let's take it a step further.

 

If Astudillo who is out playing Gonzalez at the moment can play 3B capably while Sano takes his time getting ready to join the team, Marwin can remain in the every day utility role he was signed to handle.

 

If Gonzalez can play the every day utility role... We wouldn't need Adrianza on the roster and could therefore keep Cave on the roster when we needed to call up a 13th pitcher and then we will have an actual outfielder to play RF when Buxton fouls a ball of his leg.

 

You see what I mean... the Twins have unnecessarily rostered themselves into Astudillo playing RF when they didn't have to. All they needed to do was keep Marwin in the role he was originally signed (big money) to play. All they had to do was keep the bacon on the burger.

I’m not convinced Jake Cave is better player to have on the roster than Ehire Adrianza. Cave was a great story last year. Last year is over. A .370 BABIP is tough to maintain. And we are not talking about a gifted defensive OFer. Indeed, when he plays, the starting RF plays CF. It’s pretty unusual to have a reserve OFer that rarely plays CF.

 

Adrianza is capable of playing corner OF and can play all over the infield. He’s hitting poorly this year, but for his career he’s not a black hole as a hitter. The biggest advantage Cave has over Adrianza is having minor league options.

[Riverbrian]

 

I’m not convinced Jake Cave is better player to have on the roster than Ehire Adrianza. Cave was a great story last year. Last year is over. A .370 BABIP is tough to maintain. And we are not talking about a gifted defensive OFer. Indeed, when he plays, the starting RF plays CF. It’s pretty unusual to have a reserve OFer that rarely plays CF.

Adrianza is capable of playing corner OF and can play all over the infield. He’s hitting poorly this year, but for his career he’s not a black hole as a hitter. The biggest advantage Cave has over Adrianza is having minor league options.

 

I'm not convinced either but Cave on the roster would be less superflous than Adrianza would be when Marwin returns to the every day utility role and therefore SS, 2B and 3B. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I was always here... I've never been willy nilly flexibility. I still consider defense to be rather important. 

 

Where we disagreed if I recall was my belief that there are a lot of players who are capable of playing multiple positions but we don't know who they are because they have been specialized to the point of rarity. 

 

And my point was doing that in real games tends to have significant consequences, including injuries.

[ashbury]

And my point was doing that in real games tends to have significant consequences, including injuries.

You probably know this, but in case anyone reading the thread is unsure, Willians Astudillo was injured running the bases. And in the winter Venezuelan league this offseason, he played more innings in the outfield for Caribes de Anzoategui than catcher or infield - continuing a pattern his entire 5 years with that team.

 

The discussion has diverged (which is fine) from the title concerning Willians and Marwin, and I presume you are referring to others who have suffered injury.

[stringer bell]

 

I’m not convinced Jake Cave is better player to have on the roster than Ehire Adrianza. Cave was a great story last year. Last year is over. A .370 BABIP is tough to maintain. And we are not talking about a gifted defensive OFer. Indeed, when he plays, the starting RF plays CF. It’s pretty unusual to have a reserve OFer that rarely plays CF.

Adrianza is capable of playing corner OF and can play all over the infield. He’s hitting poorly this year, but for his career he’s not a black hole as a hitter. The biggest advantage Cave has over Adrianza is having minor league options.

In addition to all of that is the fact that Adrianza is out of options, so if the Twins want to send him down he must be DFAed and likely lost. The last point is that Ehire is a switch hitter, which also gives him an edge over Cave. Two of the three guys that Cave could/would replace in a lineup are also left handed hitters. 

 

I think Cave is a major league talent. However in an era of 12 and 13-man pitching staffs, he isn't a great fit as a fourth outfielder, particularly when both of the other corner outfielders he backs up hit left handed. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

In addition to all of that is the fact that Adrianza is out of options, so if the Twins want to send him down he must be DFAed and likely lost. The last point is that Ehire is a switch hitter, which also gives him an edge over Cave. Two of the three guys that Cave could/would replace in a lineup are also left handed hitters. 

 

I think Cave is a major league talent. However in an era of 12 and 13-man pitching staffs, he isn't a great fit as a fourth outfielder, particularly when both of the other corner outfielders he backs up hit left handed. 

I honestly don't think Cave's handedness has much of a role in the decision.

 

He's a good outfielder.

 

Buxton is the best outfielder in baseball. Kepler is a capable replacement in center. Those two are cornerstones of the Twins' success in the future.

 

Meanwhile, Rosario is a beast.

 

There simply isn't a lot of room for a guy like Cave in an outfield like that. He doesn't bring anything to the table that isn't already covered by better, more established players with whom the franchise has a lot more investment in seeing succeed.

[Platoon]

You have touched on something that I have been standing on the soapbox as against for quite some time now. The toleration of sub-par play from players who are not supposed to be sub-par In other words... it may be defensive as you suggest but it is also possible that they have picked a starting 9 before the season started and are sticking with it and not adjusting according to what is actually happening. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think lineups have been chosen before the season started more times than we would like to imagine by more teams than the Twins. It would also seem to me that the proliferation of younger, less experienced managers being hired by the current FO types will increase this practice. Why? Becasue it's generally perceived that the FO's are more involved in day to day player lineups. Since the FO is responsible for the Gonsalez signing, they will see that he gets preferential playing time. They have nothing invested in Astudillo. He gets whatever is left. Astudillo does so many things well, one of which is to make the Gonsalez signing redundant. I also am pretty sure that he will get a ticket to Rochester when Sano comes back. Which would be too bad. The Twins had there utility player sitting in the locker room and didn't know it. That 12M? That Marwin is getting would have made a nice RP.