Why Astudillo in RF and Marwin at 3B?

[rv78]

Riverbrian, your view that the Twins NEED a super-utility player is absurd. What positions does Marwin cover that they didn't already have covered with Cave, Austin, Astudillo, and Adrianza? NONE! Why did Cave get sent down because they needed another pitcher? Because Marwin is an established player. Not because Marwin is better. Astudillo or Adrianza could be covering 3B if Cave was needed in the outfield. I'll stick to my guns, the Marwin signing was a waste of money. The Astros didn't feel the need to keep him for the simple reason they know he was an average player that is easy to replace with the guys they have on their bench. The Twins could and should have done the same.

[WLFINN]

 

Here's why the Twins had to pay that money to acquire Gonzalez. 

 

Neglect

 

Decades long Neglect. 

 

The Twins along with most of the other teams in baseball have neglected this type of player for decades and have never tried to create their own super-utility player and they are still reluctant for some unknown reason to create their own to this day despite a need for them. So they have to buy the ones created by other teams. 

 

The Astros didn't neglect the concept and I have heard and read AJ Hinch say multiple times that he is really going to miss Marwin Gonzalez but the Astros don't need to pay that kind of money for a Marwin type player with Marwin type production because they know that they can create their own. They have been here before and done it. They broke through the wall and they are not going to pay that kind of money for this rarity. They have Yuli Gurriel who can play multiple positions so they can slide Tyler White into the lineup when Tyler White shows AJ Hinch that he is worth putting into the lineup at 1B. They signed Aledmys Diaz to replace Marwin because they believe that they can create another Marwin in Diaz. 

 

I was for the signing of Marwin and the cost to acquire him because we have neglected this type of player, failed to create our own and are therefore behind the Dodgers, Cubs, Rays, Astros and Brewers and I think we need to catch up yesterday. 

 

The Dodgers, Cubs, Astros, Brewers and the Rays on a cheaper scale know that depth is important and are not rostering Adrianza for getaway days.

 

 

I would have rather we created our own for cost efficiency but they showed me no indication that they were going to try do that with our existing roster. 

 What about Punto, Hocking, early Cuddyer, Danny Santana....

[ashbury]

Anyway... that's why Marwin cost more than he produces. Not playing Marwin at multiple positions is like paying 25 bucks for a hamburger because it had bacon on it. Then throwing away the bacon and eating the plain hamburger that was also available for 10 bucks. 

In light of Marwin's .173 BA, I have to echo renowned baseball analyst Clara Peller and ask, bacon, sure, but:

[Riverbrian]

What about Punto, Hocking, early Cuddyer, Danny Santana....

Those are mostly examples of simple Utility players. When Punto was moving around to different positions he was a bench player. Once he became a starter they locked him into a position. Cuddyer was always a starter who they moved to different permanent positions based on need. He’s a 2B this year because we need a 2B all of a sudden.

 

Super utility guys like Marwin and Bellinger and Bryant will play the majority of days like a starter does but will be in different positions each day according to what the manager wants to accomplish each day.

[Mr. Brooks]

Riverbrian, your view that the Twins NEED a super-utility player is absurd. What positions does Marwin cover that they didn't already have covered with Cave, Austin, Astudillo, and Adrianza? NONE! Why did Cave get sent down because they needed another pitcher? Because Marwin is an established player. Not because Marwin is better. Astudillo or Adrianza could be covering 3B if Cave was needed in the outfield. I'll stick to my guns, the Marwin signing was a waste of money. The Astros didn't feel the need to keep him for the simple reason they know he was an average player that is easy to replace with the guys they have on their bench. The Twins could and should have done the same.

Cave went down because he has options.

No matter how much a person liked or disliked the Marwin signing, nobody is going to sign someone to a 2 year deal, then cut them after 25 games.

[Doomtints]

 

Cave went down because he has options.
No matter how much a person liked or disliked the Marwin signing, nobody is going to sign someone to a 2 year deal, then cut them after 25 games.

 

Yep. Gonzalez is here to stay.

 

By the time Sano gets back, someone else will be injured, etc. The Gonz will be on the field a lot.

[howieramone2]

 

Marwin Gonzalez is terrible. Astudillo is not terrible. What more do you need to know?

 

The Twins gave Gonzalez $12M when his market value is five. And he will be around next year too, hah

 

Marwin Gonzalez is terrible. Astudillo is not terrible. What more do you need to know?

 

The Twins gave Gonzalez $12M when his market value is five. And he will be around next year too, haha?

Gonzalez is not terrible and A-Stud is the flavor of the month. He just established his market value. The folks on MLBTR had him going for considerably more. Solid signing.

 

[SheboyganBrats]

I think the question posed in the topic "Why astudillo in rf and marwin at 3b?" gives some insight into Baldelli's style as manager.  He seems much more prone to giving players set defensive positions and having set batting lineups than, say, Molitor.  When Sano went on the IL, Baldelli gave Marwin the 3b position and Astudillo and Adrianza took up the utility roles.  With the emergence of Astudillo, he kinda became the super-utility guy.  If my view is correct, when Baldelli needed someone for rf, he stuck with Marwin at 3b and Astudillo got plugged into the open spot.  This seems at least plausible to me.

 

As far as Astudillo being put into the regular 3b role, it's an interesting question.  We'd likely be seeing much better offensive production, but, of course, this is a hypothetical.  Some players thrive as everyday players, some don't.  Maybe Astudillo being exposed on a daily basis wouldn't be a good idea in Baldelli's mind.  Maybe Baldelli has seen something in Astudillo that makes him think he's more suited to a back-up role at this point.  Maybe some defensive issues would emerge, or maybe pitchers would start focusing on him more at the plate.  Dunno, but a good discussion so far.  It's just too bad La Tortuga got hurt and we won't get to see how this plays out, at least in the short term.

[Riverbrian]

 

Riverbrian, your view that the Twins NEED a super-utility player is absurd. What positions does Marwin cover that they didn't already have covered with Cave, Austin, Astudillo, and Adrianza? NONE! Why did Cave get sent down because they needed another pitcher? Because Marwin is an established player. Not because Marwin is better. Astudillo or Adrianza could be covering 3B if Cave was needed in the outfield. I'll stick to my guns, the Marwin signing was a waste of money. The Astros didn't feel the need to keep him for the simple reason they know he was an average player that is easy to replace with the guys they have on their bench. The Twins could and should have done the same.

 

That's fine but yeah we are going to disagree on this and that happens. I've been on the depth and flexibility kick for quite some time now and I've had a bunch of discussions with the fine folks at Twinsdaily on the subject. I understand that other have a different view point but I'm pretty locked in on mine. 

 

A couple of things:

 

1. You and I have a different assessment of Marwin Gonzalez. When you say we don't need Marwin because we have Adrianza, I am simply not going to meet at the location for that same opinion. It is my personal opinion that Marwin is a significantly better hitter than Ehire is and when I say that... it is not intended to slam Adrianza in any sense. I just think Marwin is a better hitter and I think he can play more positions capably. I could be wrong but that is my opinion. Despite his month long lack of production... I still believe that Marwin will get it going and when he gets it going his production will be equal to the production that we get from most of our "Designated Starters". I am only mentioning this because I don't want our difference in opinion on Marwin to cloud the next points. 

 

2. A super utility guy is a guy who can play multiple positions at a level that is similar to a starter (Yes we disagree on if Marwin is at that level). A super utility guy can give Schoop a day off and the team doesn't suffer an enormous drop off in talent and then Polanco and then Sano and then Rosario and then Kepler a day off and then Cron. None of the starters will have to absorb the bulk of bench time to get this 10th player into the lineup because the super utility guy can be moved around and therefore spread the playing time around to include a 10th guy and now you starting to build actual honest to god depth on your roster. 

 

3. If you go into a season saying that I've got the starting 9... now let's grab 3-4 guys who will play only occasionally... You have to grab a lesser player to take one those roles because the team can't justify signing or trading for Tommy Pham to be a 4th OF because you will have to bench talent frequently to accommodate. So... Locking into a starting 9 and saying you are covered, you are nearly forced to grab a lesser player for one of those 3-4 guys who will play only occasionally. These players don't get regualr reps until we are Forced to throw them into the lineup.  Every year it happens... Logan Morrison is horrible and we only have Ryan LaMarre to replace him and so they keep playing the horrible player without adequate replacement. Miguel Sano gets hurt and we are forced to give Ehire Adrianza 400 AB's at 3B while we sign Taylor Motter pff the waiver wire to take over Adrianza's role. 

 

4. Not signing depth... only legitimately counting on the starting 9 is a fatal error that most GM's make every single year and they get burned often... and they don't have to. In my opinion, this is the primary reason that teams pinball from 85 wins to 65 wins after making honest effort to improve the club in the off-season. By not providing depth... They have forced fate to determine the the outcome of the season through health and good performance. Yes, health and good performance is tough to overcome even with depth but if you staff the team 25 strong... you have a better chance of controlling that fate instead of just laying down and dying.  

 

5. When you have depth... 12 to 13 players who can play at a high level. Flexibility has to occur. You have no choice... It's a natural by-product of depth. All 12 to 13 have to be worked into the lineup and in order to do that, somebody will have to learn a new position... For example, If you have Polanco and Tatis Jr on the same roster... somebody has to learn another position like 3B, 2B or LF in order for both to get playing time. So if you have honest to God depth... you have to adopt flexibility or it's pointless to have depth. 

 

6. Signing Super Utility guys is flexibility right from the get go. You don't have to wait for depth to force it. You don't have to develop it... It has been developed for you... You don't have to train Mookie Betts to play 2B at the last minute to cover for an injury to Pedroia. You can either develop flexibility or acquire it. The Twins have not been developing it so they have to acquire it.

 

7. The Twins like most clubs have not attempted to develop super utility and are behind those that have (Dodgers and Cubs).  They simply take lesser players who can't compete at the starter level, turned them into utility players and played them sparingly and then we all get pissed when the player has to play every day. 

 

You can't win without depth unless you get lucky, you can't have true depth without flexibility. You can't have flexibility unless you develop it or sign already developed flexible players.

 

It is my opinion that super utility guys have been neglected by most teams and super utility guys are critical to the long term health of an organization.

 

Now... how we each feel about Marwin is a different matter. I think he fits the "Super" part of utility... you think he's just utility. 

 

 

 

 

 

[yarnivek1972]

A “super utility” player is a nice idea. The reality is that the Twins are paying him $ 20 mil this year and next. That’s $20 mil that won’t be spent on pitching, a FAR greater need.

 

I don’t think anyone is saying Gonzalez isn’t a better hitter than Adrianza. The numbers say Gonzalez is a negative UZR/150 player everywhere except first base and left field, arguably the easiest positions to play on the diamond. Adrianza is positive UZR at SS and 3b, arguably two of the most difficult, other than catcher. IMO, that matters.

 

Let’s put it this way, do you think the Twins would be a better team without Marwin IF they had spent $10 mil on pitching? I think they would be. Of course, it has to be the RIGHT pitcher(s) at $10 mil.

[Riverbrian]

A “super utility” player is a nice idea. The reality is that the Twins are paying him $ 20 mil this year and next. That’s $20 mil that won’t be spent on pitching, a FAR greater need.

 

I don’t think anyone is saying Gonzalez isn’t a better hitter than Adrianza. The numbers say Gonzalez is a negative UZR/150 player everywhere except first base and left field, arguably the easiest positions to play on the diamond. Adrianza is positive UZR at SS and 3b, arguably two of the most difficult, other than catcher. IMO, that matters.

 

Let’s put it this way, do you think the Twins would be a better team without Marwin IF they had spent $10 mil on pitching? I think they would be. Of course, it has to be the RIGHT pitcher(s) at $10 mil.

The right pitcher or player is always the question but at pure face value? 10 million is the investment that you set and the choice is depth or a single pitcher. I’ll take the depth. We have been suffering through Taylor Motter types for too long.

 

Pitching we’ve spent the 10 million on arms and ended up Sorry that we did. I’m not saying that we should stop trying but depth is a safe guard against that sort of thing. I’ll take the depth... I’m crying and praying for depth. I can’t handle another Logan Morrison.

 

Ultimately I’d rather the club developed that Super Utility Player on their own at league minimum prices and spent 10 million on the pitcher but since they haven’t addressed depth for decades we got to pay it now.

 

Astudillo could be that cheap super utility guy I’m talking about.