Joe Mauer and/or Yadier Molina belong in the HOF?

[cardsfan]

Sell me on why Joe Mauer belongs in the HOF and I will do the same for our catcher, Molina.

 

First Mauer only started 885 games as catcher before switching to 1b the last several years. 1 MVP, 3 batting titles, 3 GG, but 200 games caught from 2011-2013 and 1 appearance from 2014-2018 as catcher before lucky for the Twins moved him to 1st base at a overpay, hamstringing team of $23 million a year. Thankfully they didn’t eat contract after concussion problems. After monster year with 28 HRs and 96 RBIs and MVP getting him a too long contract in 2009, he would average 8-9 HRs a year and switch to 1b. The team which had trouble winning in the first round of the playoffs in the weakest division since 2000 became awful after 2009. He ended his career in 2018 with a ,306 average and .388 OBP, but the average kept dropping after 2009 and little power.

 

So do I think he gets in or belongs in HOF? Not in 1st round, perhaps in the 12 year of 15 years by the writers. Quitting at 35 instead of trying to get another couple seasons to get to 2400 hits would help. After 2009 never thought he had any HOF seasons if didn’t start games as catcher. A few ok 300 hitting seasons after 2010. I think if I had a vote I would wait several years as well. Retired at 35.

 

Now to Yadier Molina:

 

9 Gold Gloves as catcher starting 1773, 146 lifetime HR, but averaged 19 the last 2 seasons, considered one of the best in keeping base stealers from stealing or picking them off, just .282 average with .334 OBP. Still catching will likely be 5th all-time in catching games with over 2025 and is at 1836 so possibly number 4. Johnny Bench thinks he is a HOFer based on defense. The next couple years helps with HOF voting. Turns 37 in July. Another GG ?

 

I would vote for him because of his longevity and gold gloves. WAR is slightly below 40. 2 WS titles out of 4 appearances. Team usually has lower ERA when behind plate and is considered good at pulling balls into strike zone. Homerun in top of 9 in game 7 in 2006 playoff propelled team to WS breaking 1-1 ties in Shea Stadium. Maybe by 5 year or so of eligibility with a couple more playing years.

 

So your thoughts and votes?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'd probably call both borderline cases. They were elite at some point as a C. Mauer's problem is the concussions and being taken off of catching. If that doesn't happen, he'd probably be a sure thing. Molina might have been the best defensive catcher to play the game... and his offense was certainly acceptable... so on second thought, yeah, I think Yadier is in. 

[70charger]

I don't really see a huge problem with either one, honestly. I will say that Joe Mauer's peak was "best player in baseball." Molina has had lots of longevity as one of the best catchers in his generation, and that's very rare too. Mauer has a decisive edge in WAR, or JAWS, or peak, or whatever you prefer there. Molina has a decisive edge in durability and, well, actually being a catcher for most of his career.

 

I do think Joe Mauer is a hall of famer, though I'd be shocked if he's in on the first few ballots. Concussions cut short the all-timer trajectory he was on.

 

Molina I'm less sure about, but it wouldn't bother me much if he were, especially if you believe that catcher defense is undervalued in the stats (and I do). As a pure catcher, it doesn't get much better. Not these days.

[Riverbrian]

The bar seems to be much lower these days and in the process of lowering. 

 

I think it's possible that they both get in. 

 

However... Until Pete Rose is in... I probably won't be concerned either way. 

[Kelly Vance]

I agree that at   one time Mauer was someone who could lay claim to the title of best player in baseball.  I always liked Molina, but never though he would meet that description.  Mauer did things no catcher had done before him. 3 batting titles and an MVP is close to enough, and the concussions shouldn't be counted against him.

 

That should be remembered.

 

Molina may miss election, but I think he should be elected. But defensive prowess is not the main thing voters look for, this side of the Wizard

[Thrylos]

Neither does.

 

On the other hand, since Harold Baines is in, they opened the floodgates...

 

[gunnarthor]

I think Mauer gets in fairly easily, although not on the first ballot. The new voters will recognize his peak JAWS performance (7th all time) while older voters will love his batting titles, MVP and character. He was the best catcher in baseball for a good chunk there.

 

As for Molina, he's not really a HOFer. Career 99 OPS+ and less than 40 WAR. He's in the Jason Kendall, Lance Parrish, Russell Martin area, all had pretty good seasons but, meh. Outside of Cardinal fans who troll other teams baseball forums, no one really thinks he's a HOFer. 9 gold gloves are nice but lots of gold gloves isn't getting Bob Boone, Luis Aparicio or Torii Hunter in.

[yarnivek1972]

I think Mauer gets in fairly easily, although not on the first ballot. The new voters will recognize his peak JAWS performance (7th all time) while older voters will love his batting titles, MVP and character. He was the best catcher in baseball for a good chunk there.

 

As for Molina, he's not really a HOFer. Career 99 OPS+ and less than 40 WAR. He's in the Jason Kendall, Lance Parrish, Russell Martin area, all had pretty good seasons but, meh. Outside of Cardinal fans who troll other teams baseball forums, no one really thinks he's a HOFer. 9 gold gloves are nice but lots of gold gloves isn't getting Bob Boone, Luis Aparicio or Torii Hunter in.

Lots of gold gloves got Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson and, arguably, Pudge Rodriguez in. I think the voters still recognize the value of defense at least as far as catcher is concerned.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Lots of gold gloves got Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson and, arguably, Pudge Rodriguez in. I think the voters still recognize the value of defense at least as far as catcher is concerned.

Yeah, I remember them too.  Times may have changed.  The current HOF voting public may have recognized the problems with gold gloves (i.e. non-objective and based on popularity).

 

I think a more interesting comparison is actually Molina and Perez (who just lost the year).

[beckmt]

Both will probably get in for different reasons.  Mauer for his offensive prowess.  Molina for his defense.  Mauer gets in example Campenella who was killed but had 10 great seasons.  Molina because of his aid in St. Louis having this 15 year run where they had few bad teams.

[Boom Boom]

I've given up on arguing why guys shouldn't be in the hall. There's already too many players in there who I wouldn't have voted for, and they can't be kicked out.

 

I would say "sure, why not" to any halfway borderline case.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Yadier will have a tougher time. Hitters tend to have an easier time than fielders. I’m not sure Joe caught long enough “really deserve it”. However, the hall of fame is becoming the hall of very good. I think both get in eventually.

 

To the OP: I like your points and it’s fun to get activity here from non Twins fans. It’s surprising from a Cards fan. I still think back to ‘87 fondly....

 

That being said, I got to see Pujols in his prime at Busch. He put on a clinic and it was awesome.

[ewen21]

 

Neither does.

 

On the other hand, since Harold Baines is in, they opened the floodgates...

Exactly this.  Not trying to discredit the players, but they don't meet my standard as HOFers.  I need to see better career numbers.  As for Molina, he doesn't even have ,2,000 hits and his career OPS is .740.  Mauer also has weak offensive totals.  He cannot be regarded as a catcher.  Not when half of his at bats came from 1B/DH. 

 

Then again, the HOF is now a joke to me because of the Baines induction.  The standards have lowered so it would not surprise me to see both Molina and Mauer get inducted

[ewen21]

 

I've given up on arguing why guys shouldn't be in the hall. There's already too many players in there who I wouldn't have voted for, and they can't be kicked out.

I would say "sure, why not" to any halfway borderline case.

I am at the point where it is more like …..Whatever.

 

[ashbury]

I'm a Big Hall^* guy, so for me Mauer is an easy yes, and Molina would be a likely yes also. Molina is closing in on top-10 for innings caught, all-time - he's above 15,000, and the record is 20348 by Pudge Rodriguez - probably out of reach, but who knows. While some dislike inducting a player merely for longevity, it's not like Molina is just hanging on and being given playing time as a courtesy. There is something memorable about that kind of ability, and to me the Hall of Fame should be memorializing (among various others) guys who perform at a very high level for a very long time. The HOF should recognize fame, and also confer it - it is capable, like Double Duty Radcliffe (sadly, not a HOF member himself), of doing more than just one thing well.

 

^{* _{What I want, in addition, is an officially sanctioned Inner Circle that is a fair bit smaller than our current Hall of Fame and which we can argue about until kingdom come.}}

[gunnarthor]

 

Lots of gold gloves got Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson and, arguably, Pudge Rodriguez in. I think the voters still recognize the value of defense at least as far as catcher is concerned.

They were all recognized for their defense but they were all great players. Ozzie's oWAR is twice Molina's. Molina had two great seasons (2012, 2013). After that, his third best season was a 3.2 WAR season. Smith had 13 seasons better than that. I'm not sure defensive value is going to get Andruw Jones or Omar Vizquel in either. Jim Sundberg and Bob Boone were arguably better defenders at catcher and they didn't get in, either.

 

Molina might get in on narrative but he really hasn't had a HOF career by any reliable measurement. Buster Posey has already had a better career than Molina in only 9 seasons and no one thinks he's a HOFer right now.

[sweetmusicviola16]

I used to have a lot of fun with the HOF. Not so much anymore. No Joe Jackson. No Pete Rose. No Barry Bonds. No Rafael Palmeiro. No Roger Clemens. Until the ones that should be in based on what they did in the field are in I could care less about any others. PEDS? Cheating? It goes way back. Charlie Comiskey was a scoundrel, yet he is in.

 

I would characterize both Molina and Mauer as borderline players.

[Dantes929]

I am more about how brightly the star shines than how long it shines.    I am a bit old school and still like BA as a stat.   In my book three batting titles should get you in.  Its the longevity equivalent of 3000 hits.     The fact that Mauer did it as a catcher should just be icing.    If he had simply quit after concussions his resume would actually look better.   That shouldn't be held against him.    Larry Walker, Bill Madlock, Mauer and Oliva should all be in.

[cardsfan]

I am more about how brightly the star shines than how long it shines. I am a bit old school and still like BA as a stat. In my book three batting titles should get you in. Its the longevity equivalent of 3000 hits. The fact that Mauer did it as a catcher should just be icing. If he had simply quit after concussions his resume would actually look better. That shouldn't be held against him. Larry Walker, Bill Madlock, Mauer and Oliva should all be in.

Why didn't Mauer play another year at less pay since it looked like he could still hit .280 though with little power?

 

Molina has won 4 Platinum awards for best defensive player in NL. He will likely get 2000 hits next season. Yes, he seems borderline.

 

Not trying to troll since I followed Twins in 70s. Still think the Metrodome was rigged against visiting teams with the ventilation system in the World Series.

[cardsfan]

I am more about how brightly the star shines than how long it shines. I am a bit old school and still like BA as a stat. In my book three batting titles should get you in. Its the longevity equivalent of 3000 hits. The fact that Mauer did it as a catcher should just be icing. If he had simply quit after concussions his resume would actually look better. That shouldn't be held against him. Larry Walker, Bill Madlock, Mauer and Oliva should all be in.

If those 3 batting titles were .350 or more than likely. Madlock won 4 titles, but, one was strike shortened season. He didn't drive in alot or score alot so he falls short on Hall of Fame standards.

[2wins87]

HOF debates get tiresome pretty fast but I'll make a couple of points.

 

First, the idea that the Hall has gotten easier to get into is nonsense.  Harold Baines was a bad inductee, but there have been inductees like him for the Hall's entire existence.  Name any positiion and it's probably pretty easy to find a Hall of Famer that makes no sense, and most of them were voted in long ago.  Jesse Haines? Lloyd Waner? Bill Mazeroski?  Not to mention the fact that for the first half of baseball history black players weren't even allowed in the MLB and the overall level of play wasn't very impressive.  I think for the most part the standards have gotten higher, though the Veteran's committee is still odd and the writers are super inconsistent and petty.

 

Second, I don't think the voters have ever really appreciated how difficult being a high level catcher is.  We've only recently started measuring pitch framing and finding that it can actually provide a lot of value to a team, and I'm not aware of much work on the effects of catcher game calling/working with pitchers.  I imagine you can probably point to some evidence that Molina has been valuable to his team in ways that haven't always been measured, though this kind of evidence is obviously hard to quantify.  But most basically, there aren't a lot of catchers that have made it to the Hall, most catchers don't have particularly long and productive careers, so we should probably grade on a curve for all catchers.

 

I think Mauer should really be a no doubt case (you can leave him off the first ballot if that kind of thing matters to you).  I actually think he'll do pretty well in the voting also, uniting some of the younger and older voters.  The new school guys can point to his very impressive peak at catcher and the amount of WAR he managed to rack up.  He's the only catcher to win 3 batting titles, which is kind of meaningless but is the kind of thing that traditionalists like.  He was the face of the Twins franchise for many years and one of the best pure hitters of his era.  He was actually pretty "clutch" at the plate.

 

The arguments for Molina have to be a little more squishy.  He was never the face of his franchise, but he does have a stellar defensive reputation, and he's had a long and pretty good career at catcher which is a feat in of itself.  I wouldn't really argue against him if you can make the case that he was one of the most important players for the Cardinals over his career.

[ashbury]

They were all recognized for their defense but they were all great players. Ozzie's oWAR is twice Molina's. Molina had two great seasons (2012, 2013). After that, his third best season was a 3.2 WAR season. Smith had 13 seasons better than that. I'm not sure defensive value is going to get Andruw Jones or Omar Vizquel in either. Jim Sundberg and Bob Boone were arguably better defenders at catcher and they didn't get in, either.

 

Molina might get in on narrative but he really hasn't had a HOF career by any reliable measurement. Buster Posey has already had a better career than Molina in only 9 seasons and no one thinks he's a HOFer right now.

Catcher is such a tough position. I don't feel as though my own rules of thumb necessarily carry over to catchers.

 

I used the b-r.com Play Index tool to list all the players 2009-2018 who qualified for the batting title (502 PA) and played 75% of their games at catcher. There were 69 such seasons during those 10 years. Molina had 9 of those. That's only about 7 players per season who play enough to qualify - so fairly elite company to start with.

 

And if you further limit the search to 3.0 offensive WAR or better, there were just 33 seasons in those 10 years. Molina had 5 of those 33. That's a lot of offense coming from the catcher position in the lineup.

 

If you increase the threshold to 5.0 oWAR, there were seven such seasons, and Yadier had one. (Posey and Mauer each had two.)

 

Change the position studied, to 3B, and the population size and the top oWAR all go a lot higher. 165 players qualify. 32 have an oWAR of 5.0 or higher. Shortstop, 182 qualify, 12 have oWAR of 5.0. And SS is considered a glove-first (sometimes glove-only) position.

 

I dunno. Catchers play fewer games so it's harder to rack up the "counting" stats, which WAR basically is. There may be other factors at work as well. Molina is one of the top catchers of his era. He's not Inner Circle HoF but deserves consideration.

[Dantes929]

 

Why didn't Mauer play another year at less pay since it looked like he could still hit .280 though with little power?

Molina has won 4 Platinum awards for best defensive player in NL. He will likely get 2000 hits next season. Yes, he seems borderline.

Not trying to troll since I followed Twins in 70s. Still think the Metrodome was rigged against visiting teams with the ventilation system in the World Series.

Don't throw shade on the 87 team.   We know they were flawed and helped by the Dome, whether or not it was manipulated or happenstance.     Mauer didn't drive in a lot or score a lot either but there is value to advancing players without making outs whether through walks or singles.     I am guessing Morneau, Cuddyer and Thome loved having Mauer hit ahead of them.    Way easier getting a guy in from third with one out than a guy on 1st with two outs.       

I don't care what the batting average for the leader was, it was still better than everyone else if you got a batting title.    If you have done that three times or more its not a fluke.   

I don't know why Mauer hung it up.   He was still capable of hitting .300 and I loved watching him do it but baseball and money is not everything.   .

If Molina got in, it wouldn't bother me in the least.   The guys a rock and has been for forever.

[cardsfan]

I'm still torn as well though the Cardinals are fortunate to have had only 2 catchers since 2000 and their average record is like 90.5-71.5 with only 1 losing season. If they had 7 or 8 catchers this century doesn't seem they would be averaging 19 games over .500 for 19 years with Molina starting last 14. The Cards traded future catcher for Goldschmidt. Knizer is whom they are grooming in minors.

 

Mauer was a major contributor to you winning in the late 2000s and 2010 as catcher. Needed more games as catcher to make it a certainity.