Twins Claim Oliver Drake, Johnny Field

[yarnivek1972]

I'm not sure that's common at all, at least not with sufficient sample size in the minors and majors both. But, even granting the frequency you suggest, which is to say "not many", to try and never miss such a diamond in the rough would consume so much roster space you would never have time to give a chance to the legitimate prospects.

Kennys Vargas is an obvious example.

[ashbury]

Kennys Vargas is an obvious example.

An example of how a franchise can spin its wheels endlessly, waiting for such an investment of precious roster space to pay off.

[Major League Ready]

 

You usually don’t carry five of them on your 40 man roster.

Usually guys on the 40 man are guys you think can play at the MLB level. If not today, then someday.

 

Fair enough. I guess when they need room on the 40 man this should be addressed. It does not mean that it makes sense to give any of them a shot instead of drake. My guess is Belisle gets cut and Busenitz gets a shot but maybe they just don't believe in Busenitz. 

[yarnivek1972]

I don’t want to make this thread about Vargas, but he strikes me as a guy who, for whatever reason, hasn’t been able to put it all together.

 

Always had great power, .190 career ISO. Occasionally showed plate discipline (2016). At times hit well vs LHP (2015,2016). At times hit well vs RHP (2014, 2017).

 

The raw ability is there. He’s shown it, at times, at the MLB level. Just not often enough and not consistently enough.

 

Head scratcher, to be sure.

[KirbyDome89]

 

None of the AAA guys has been lights out. Moya / May are already here. I think the should jettison Belisle and give Busenitz a shot but he has not been great the past couple months. I am just not seeing any great concession in giving Drake a shot.

I could argue that Drake hasn't been lights out himself since he's on his fifth team already this season. "Great," is subjective here. There's a chance none of the current relief group pans out. The point is that pitchers like Drake are a dime a dozen. While this team isn't competing it would be in their best interest to see if some of that relief group has a shot to achieve more than journeyman status before they're left unprotected. 

[Riverbrian]

 

In a vacuum there's nothing wrong with taking a look at a guy like Drake. In fact, you'd hope a FO would always be trying to find that diamond in the coal mine. 

 

The issue is what that looks costs this team right now. He's receiving innings that ideally would be given to younger bullpen arms in AAA that haven't had a chance to stick with the Twins. The organization can audition an early 30s journeyman anytime they wan't; those types aren't hard to find on waivers. It'd be nice to have an idea of whether the minor league arms can contribute or be counted on as actual "depth," before they're jettisoned out of the organization. 

 

It's easy to come to the conclusion you have come to when you call Drake a "not hard to find early 30s journeyman that can be auditioned anytime". 

 

By that doing that you've lumped him into a group of whatever's.

 

However, If you look at Drake as an individual that you like and he is available right now and may not be available later. Then you see him as time sensitive and you give him a shot. 

 

I want to see Busenitz, Curtis and Duffey just like everybody else and I want to know if they can help in 2019 but they will be here later. If they like this Drake guy... you gotta look at him now when he's available. 

 

 

[Major League Ready]

 

It's easy to come to the conclusion you have come to when you call Drake a "not hard to find early 30s journeyman that can be auditioned anytime". 

 

By that doing that you've lumped him into a group of whatever's.

 

However, If you look at Drake as an individual that you like and he is available right now and may not be available later. Then you see him as time sensitive and you give him a shot. 

 

I want to see Busenitz, Curtis and Duffey just like everybody else and I want to know if they can help in 2019 but they will be here later. If they like this Drake guy... you gotta look at him now when he's available. 

 

I assumed this went without saying and we all not what happens when we assume.

[Riverbrian]

 

I assumed this went without saying and we all not what happens when we assume.

 

I assume that we all assume. 

[mikelink45]

 

Well, they are just below league average, based on OPS+ 

 

Which means that Hicks is playing worse than Garver and Goodrum worse than Escobar, the players that were earmarked to be the back up catcher and UT for the Twins in 2018.   I know that the Hicks situation happened in 2017 and still Garver was ahead of him,..

The question is not the starter, but the reserve - is Bobby Wilson ahead of Hicks?  Is Logan Forsyth ahead of Goodrum?  By the way Goodrum is 96 OPS+ and Forsyth is 52.  John Hicks is 93 and Wilson is 33.   Yes I would like both of them back, but there is a pattern of not given our own signees the opportunity over waiver pickups.

[mikelink45]

 

Not going to lie, I am surprised by Goodrum's success.  

I made another response to Thrylos - check out the OPS+ for both of these players versus our reserves on the Twins. 

[mikelink45]

 

Is it down to bemoaning that replacement level players have moved on?  Hicks would have been considered dumpster diving when the Twins picked him up

No - for back up roles I prefer to reward those in our system and not the rejects of others.  Look at my response to Thrylos - you can see the OPS+ comparisons between these guys and the replacements we have. 

[Blackjack]

Is it possible that they claimed these two guys and put them on the 40 man roster so they don't have to put more valuable prospects on the roster? In a few weeks when you do have a roster crunch, either one of these guys can be jettisoned in a heartbeat vs having to make a tough decision on which prospect to expose (Chargois comes to mind).  Plus you have few weeks to evaluate these two guys.

[Vanimal46]

Is it possible that they claimed these two guys and put them on the 40 man roster so they don't have to put more valuable prospects on the roster? In a few weeks when you do have a roster crunch, either one of these guys can be jettisoned in a heartbeat vs having to make a tough decision on which prospect to expose (Chargois comes to mind). Plus you have few weeks to evaluate these two guys.

Do the Twins have valuable RP prospects? I don't think that's a real problem they have.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The question is not the starter, but the reserve - is Bobby Wilson ahead of Hicks?  Is Logan Forsyth ahead of Goodrum?  By the way Goodrum is 96 OPS+ and Forsyth is 52.  John Hicks is 93 and Wilson is 33.   Yes I would like both of them back, but there is a pattern of not given our own signees the opportunity over waiver pickups.

It's not quite apples to apples. To keep Goodrum or Hicks would have required giving them a 40-man roster spot, a long time before we had to roster Wilson or Forsythe.

 

Detroit claimed Hicks on waivers in April 2016. For the Twins to use Hicks to replace Wilson in May 2018, we would have had to keep Hicks on the 40-man for over 2 years, including 2 offseasons where the roster can be a bit tighter (no 60-day DL in the offseason).

 

Goodrum would have been a bit easier to keep, with a 40-man roster spot last offseason. But it still would have been a waste -- where would Goodrum have played in Minnesota? We had a much better infield and lineup than Detroit. (Worth noting Detroit didn't even guarantee him a roster spot -- they signed him to a minor league deal and promoted him just before opening day. It's quite possible Minnesota offered him the same minor league deal and he chose Detroit for the better opportunity.)

[nicksaviking]

 

I think most of us are just puzzled by the bird in the bush approach when the guys in the minors have the same if not more potential. Particularly since they basically did the same thing with Magill, letting him leapfrog the in-house guys, yet refuse to ever use him.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

No - for back up roles I prefer to reward those in our system and not the rejects of others.  Look at my response to Thrylos - you can see the OPS+ comparisons between these guys and the replacements we have. 

Performance-wise, keep in mind Detroit has had Hicks for almost 3 full seasons now, and he has only 32 starts at catcher. He has 84 starts at 1B/DH in that time. So it's not clear how viable he is, behind the plate. Which is an important distinction, because his 97 OPS+ with Detroit does not make him an asset at 1B/DH. (Even if it is marginally better than Morrison so far in 2018 -- entering 2018 with Hicks as first or second string 1B/DH would have been universally considered a terrible plan.)

 

Likewise, as mentioned upthread, Goodrum has been playing all over for Detroit, but poorly by the metrics. Maybe he's marginally better (offense + defense) than Forsythe's 2018 season right now, but only because Forsythe's 2018 season has been really, really bad at the plate. That alone doesn't make Goodrum an asset. He's worse than Adrianza, Polanco, Sano, and the recently traded Escobar and Dozier in our infield, Mauer at 1B/DH, Rosario, Kepler, and Cave in our OF, etc.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I think most of us are just puzzled by the bird in the bush approach when the guys in the minors have the same if not more potential. Particularly since they basically did the same thing with Magill, letting him leapfrog the in-house guys, yet refuse to ever use him.

The new front office's record on relievers is really, really weird. Yeah, they've only been on the job for 2 seasons, but modern bullpen pieces can be made (and lost) pretty rapidly. After 2 years, you should have something to show for your work in that department.

 

Here are the current relievers that the new front office has added to the 40-man roster:

Belisle (twice)

Busenitz

Curtiss

Drake

Hildenberger

Magill

Moya

Reed

Rodney

 

 

And departed ones they had added to the 40-man roster:

 

Breslow

Duke

Gee

Haley

Kinley

Rucinski

Turley

 

They also re-added Wimmers in 2017, after dropping him following the 2016 season.

[nicksaviking]

 

The new front office's record on relievers is really, really weird. Yeah, they've only been on the job for 2 seasons, but modern bullpen pieces can be made (and lost) pretty rapidly. After 2 years, you should have something to show for your work in that department.

 

Here are the current relievers that the new front office has added to the 40-man roster:

Belisle (twice)

Busenitz

Curtiss

Drake

Hildenberger

Magill

Moya

Reed

Rodney

 

 

And departed ones they had added to the 40-man roster:

 

Breslow

Duke

Gee

Haley

Kinley

Rucinski

Turley

 

They also re-added Wimmers in 2017, after dropping him following the 2016 season.

 

I don't know if it's been said, but it looks like the front office values a low walk rate above all else, at least for the relievers. It seems like typical bullpens tend to have some wildcards as far as control goes but every other team's bullpens bring serious velocity. 

 

It's probably why guys like Busenitz, Moya, Slegers and Duffey have gotten repeated chances in the majors while guys like Curtis, Reed and Bard do not. The former players have a good recent track record in AAA of limiting BB. Of course they still have next to no leash, though to be fair Hildenberger and Rogers have gotten ample leash.

 

And none of that explains Fernando Rodney.

 

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

It's easy to come to the conclusion you have come to when you call Drake a "not hard to find early 30s journeyman that can be auditioned anytime". 

 

By that doing that you've lumped him into a group of whatever's.

 

However, If you look at Drake as an individual that you like and he is available right now and may not be available later. Then you see him as time sensitive and you give him a shot. 

 

I want to see Busenitz, Curtis and Duffey just like everybody else and I want to know if they can help in 2019 but they will be here later. If they like this Drake guy... you gotta look at him now when he's available. 

Is that an unfair description though? He's on his fifth team this season, and it was mentioned in another thread that the Twins had passed on him at least once already earlier in the season. This FO has had no problem plucking guys off the pile and placing them on the active roster. They did it last season when the team was actually competing for a WC spot so it's hard to believe that if they were that enamored with Drake they wouldn't have picked him up earlier this season. 

[Riverbrian]

 

Is that an unfair description though? He's on his fifth team this season, and it was mentioned in another thread that the Twins had passed on him at least once already earlier in the season. This FO has had no problem plucking guys off the pile and placing them on the active roster. They did it last season when the team was actually competing for a WC spot so it's hard to believe that if they were that enamored with Drake they wouldn't have picked him up earlier this season. 

 

It is both fair and unfair in my opinion. 

 

I'm not defending the signing BTW... I'm just providing a reason for why Drake now instead of one of our Rochester guys. 

 

It's a fair description because he does clearly belong in that fringe group. It's unfair because there are some guys in that group who can and will become something worthwhile down the road if given the opportunity. 

 

The fact that he has been removed from 4 40 man rosters this year does say something but on the other hand... the fact that he has been picked up and placed on 4 40 man rosters also says something. 

 

Bottom Line... Busenitz, Curtiss and Duffey are still under control so they can still be called up anytime and will still be available for call up next year as well. They are not time sensitive like Drake is. If they want to give him a shot... they have to do it now.

 

I have no issue with the team picking him up and trying him out... I will have an issue if they pick him up and don't give him a chance to actually try out. At that point he is a clear waste of opportunity and roster space. 

 

 

[yarnivek1972]

It is both fair and unfair in my opinion.

 

I'm not defending the signing BTW... I'm just providing a reason for why Drake now instead of one of our Rochester guys.

 

It's a fair description because he does clearly belong in that fringe group. It's unfair because there are some guys in that group who can and will become something worthwhile down the road if given the opportunity.

 

The fact that he has been removed from 4 40 man rosters this year does say something but on the other hand... the fact that he has been picked up and placed on 4 40 man rosters also says something.

 

Bottom Line... Busenitz, Curtiss and Duffey are still under control so they can still be called up anytime and will still be available for call up next year as well. They are not time sensitive like Drake is. If they want to give him a shot... they have to do it now.

 

I have no issue with the team picking him up and trying him out... I will have an issue if they pick him up and don't give him a chance to actually try out. At that point he is a clear waste of opportunity and roster space.

I’m pretty sure some of those guys will be out of options and/or minor league free agents after this season.

[Riverbrian]

 

I’m pretty sure some of those guys will be out of options and/or minor league free agents after this season.

 

To my knowledge... All 3 of the guys on the 40 man roster have options remaining. 

[Monkeypaws]

 

It is both fair and unfair in my opinion. 

 

I'm not defending the signing BTW... I'm just providing a reason for why Drake now instead of one of our Rochester guys. 

 

It's a fair description because he does clearly belong in that fringe group. It's unfair because there are some guys in that group who can and will become something worthwhile down the road if given the opportunity. 

 

The fact that he has been removed from 4 40 man rosters this year does say something but on the other hand... the fact that he has been picked up and placed on 4 40 man rosters also says something. 

 

Bottom Line... Busenitz, Curtiss and Duffey are still under control so they can still be called up anytime and will still be available for call up next year as well. They are not time sensitive like Drake is. If they want to give him a shot... they have to do it now.

 

I have no issue with the team picking him up and trying him out... I will have an issue if they pick him up and don't give him a chance to actually try out. At that point he is a clear waste of opportunity and roster space. 

Riverbrian, well said.

 

This management is seems unwilling to let any opportunity go by. You identified the key points.

 

When rosters expand, if our AAA guys don't get a look, then I'll get mad.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

To my knowledge... All 3 of the guys on the 40 man roster have options remaining. 

Yes, but you can't use their 2019 options until you commit to keeping them on the 40-man all winter.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

This management is seems unwilling to let any opportunity go by.

They let Drake go by earlier this season, on the same day they recalled Duffey (May 31). This was also about 12 days before we re-signed Belisle (who in turn we also passed up less than a month earlier, when he first elected free agency from Cleveland).

 

They let Johnny Field go by less than 2 weeks ago too.

[KirbyDome89]

 

It is both fair and unfair in my opinion. 

 

I'm not defending the signing BTW... I'm just providing a reason for why Drake now instead of one of our Rochester guys. 

 

It's a fair description because he does clearly belong in that fringe group. It's unfair because there are some guys in that group who can and will become something worthwhile down the road if given the opportunity. 

 

The fact that he has been removed from 4 40 man rosters this year does say something but on the other hand... the fact that he has been picked up and placed on 4 40 man rosters also says something. 

 

Bottom Line... Busenitz, Curtiss and Duffey are still under control so they can still be called up anytime and will still be available for call up next year as well. They are not time sensitive like Drake is. If they want to give him a shot... they have to do it now.

 

I have no issue with the team picking him up and trying him out... I will have an issue if they pick him up and don't give him a chance to actually try out. At that point he is a clear waste of opportunity and roster space. 

I know you're not, and similarly I'm not saying waiver pickups never turn into anything of value. 

 

All three of those guys in that group may have options remaining if they're protected, but wouldn't it be nice to have some idea whether they're worth protecting? That's really the point. 

 

That trio + others can't really be relied on, or even considered "depth,"  if you don't know what you're getting. They have an opportunity right now to figure that out. IMO the innings spent on Drake are too steep of a price to pay for a guy who profiles as somebody you can audition at any time. 

 

It seems like this is much more of an indictment of the current relief group in the organization rather than actual intrigue with Drake. 

[Monkeypaws]

 

They let Drake go by earlier this season, on the same day they recalled Duffey (May 31). This was also about 12 days before we re-signed Belisle (who in turn we also passed up less than a month earlier, when he first elected free agency from Cleveland).

 

They let Johnny Field go by less than 2 weeks ago too.

However, perhaps these guys have been on the radar of Falvine a while.

 

Also, there was no room on the Twins 40 man until the trade deadline purge a week ago.

 

Kickin tires...lots of variables in play we are completely blind to.

[Mike Sixel]

Maybe if they had kicked the tires on some of these guys last year, Rodriguez or Chargois would still be on this roster.....or maybe not. But, they would have had more data to make better decisions....

[jorgenswest]

Maybe if they had kicked the tires on some of these guys last year, Rodriguez or Chargois would still be on this roster.....or maybe not. But, they would have had more data to make better decisions....

To win they are going to need a staff who can watch performance in the minors and combine that with data so that they don’t have to kick tires wondering if they can contribute.

 

It looks like they failed on Rodriguez.

[Mike Sixel]

 

To win they are going to need a staff who can watch performance in the minors and combine that with data so that they don’t have to kick tires wondering if they can contribute.

It looks like they failed on Rodriguez.

 

If people could predict the success of minor league players accurately, there would be no bad trades. That's just not how the world works, not at all. Heck, they can't even accurately predict MLB all the time.