Front office fires 4 scouts

[a-wan]

Too bad Antony wasn't let go.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Too bad Antony wasn't let go.

I suspect that with two guys above him in the hierarchy, he's mostly an organizational, coordination guy. Not everyone needs to be a baseball expert; teams also need the guys who make sure the right people are at the right place at the right time.

 

And maybe he's good in that role. Or maybe he's super-malleable and picked up on the new org right off the bat.

 

*shrugs*

[bird]

 

At last the purge has begun!

 

Or maybe not, we don't know.

 

The Twins employ 27 scouts in the amateur scouting area alone. I'd hardly call this a shakeup, let alone a purge. We're talking four scouts.

 

People have been calling for them to "clean house", but maybe the main thing that's been needed were access , indoctrination, and implementation of some tool and methods.

 

The idea that the scouts themselves, as a group, are of inferior quality is in my mind is ill-informed.

[jctwins]

I'm sort of surprised they would cut Ted Williams considering the piece of baseball history he represents, but sometimes change is necessary.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm sort of surprised they would cut Ted Williams considering the piece of baseball history he represents, but sometimes change is necessary.

Ted Williams was cut a long time ago by his son.

 

Or, maybe more accurately, severed.

[DaveW]

 

Ted Williams was cut a long time ago by his son.

 

Or, maybe more accurately, severed.

So awesome, so dark.

I feel like this would have maken a great word filter or avatar on BYTO

[Jham]

Gonsalves moved to AAA Rochester...  Coincidence?  Are these all prep scouts?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I don't think scouting has been a problem in the organization personally, so seeing only 4 names let go doesn't surprise me too much. Looking at the track record, only one has been involved with a lot of prospects of note, and as someone else pointed out, when you've been covering Texas and Knoblauch was your big name, it's probably time to move in a different direction.

 

I've been contending that development has been a huge problem, and I suspect you'll see a bunch more names once the minor league seasons come to an end.

[big dog]

The article also noted that Jack Goin was let go a little bit prior to these decisions.  I very much appreciate Jack's willingness to interact with us on this site without being reflexively defensive.  I thought his comments were really interesting.  Best wishes to him going forward.

[wsnydes]

 

Ted Williams was cut a long time ago by his son.

 

Or, maybe more accurately, severed.

It'll be alright.  They put ice on it.

[clutterheart]

 

Too bad Antony wasn't let go.

 

Antony will moved back to the Marketing dept and he will be fine there.  

[Doomtints]

I don't think any of us know the true reason why this was done, or is being done now. 

 

However, I can make a guess as well as anyone else:

 

The Twins org became a sort of "country club" where everyone knew each other and protected one another, creating a culture of privilege. Little work was getting done because of this, and initiatives were failing with a lot of fingers being pointed. Levine/Falvey learned of this issue upon arriving thanks to meeting with people who were candid about it. Levine/Falvey then spent the next ~6 months figuring out who the problem people were because, coming in, it would have been impossible to know who was telling the truth.

 

Yes, this is a common problem in business. Structures tend to fail for only a handful of reasons.

 

Check this out:

 

[laloesch]

 

I don't think any of us know the true reason why this was done, or is being done now. 

 

However, I can make a guess as well as anyone else:

 

The Twins org became a sort of "country club" where everyone knew each other and protected one another, creating a culture of privilege. Little work was getting done because of this, and initiatives were failing with a lot of fingers being pointed. Levine/Falvey learned of this issue upon arriving thanks to meeting with people who were candid about it. Levine/Falvey then spent the next ~6 months figuring out who the problem people were because, coming in, it would have been impossible to know who was telling the truth.

 

Yes, this is a common problem in business. Structures tend to fail for only a handful of reasons.

 

Check this out:

 

 

I think you are correct in that it was a chain reaction of issues that led to the sinking Twins ship beginning in 2011 and the fact that they had been good for close to a decade.  The low low draft picks exasperated the problem and only highlighted the general mediocrity and incompetency of the front office and scouting department.  

 

While they have found a few diamonds in the rough the last couple of years in Sano and Berrios, by and large the overall pipeline of prospects has been very poor leading up to Falvey and Levine taking over.

 

The "country club" atmosphere is only the tip of the iceberg.  I think they became complacent after the new stadium opened and more revenues came in and everyone was just happy making more money and the organization was no longer pinching pennies (outside of the actual players themselves).  I fully expect for more heads to roll here in the waning moments of this season and into the offseason.  Molitor and more coaches will likely go, but I could be wrong. 

[Mr. Brooks]

Miguel Sano was not a diamond in the rough.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Too bad Antony wasn't let go.

 

Why is that too bad? He's very smart. A good baseball guy. And, from what I've heard, Falvey and Levine really like what he does. 

 

[Seth Stohs]

 

Amateur area Scouts.  Not pro scouts.  Bit of a difference.  Those guys were working the draft.

 

"Alan Sandberg, who covered Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia and upstate New York."

 

Sandberg is from around here and has been with the Twins since 2010.   Here are his picks, from most recent to least recent. 

 

Alex Kirilloff, Andre Jernigan, Travis Blankenhorn, Rich Condeelis, Tyler Mautner, Ethan Mildren,  Brandon Easton, Seth Wagner, Jake Proctor, and Alex Wimmers.

 

Other than the two recent high picks for whom the jury is still out, but both have problems, everyone else (other than Jernigan who is about to go and Wimmers) are out of baseball.  And the list includes several picks in the teens.    And Wimmers (and Kirilloff ) were his two big ones...

 

 

So... are we judging a scout on how many of his 8th round picks and later make it to the big leagues, cuz that's a pretty high standard. Jernigan was released a week or so ago. Condeelis, Mautner, Easton, Wagner were all very, very low round picks. Mildren was a low-round pick who got as high as AA. Proctor was an incredible athlete, a later-round pick, who just happened to be hurt pretty much his whole Twins career. 

 

Wimmers got hurt. Kirilloff got hurt, and it's far to judge that positively or negatively yet. Blankenhorn's too early in his career and obviously well though of in prospect rankings.

 

I don't know how an area scout is or should be judged. I don't know if there is a way to quantify that. Getting a 20th round pick who makes it to AA should be worth something. Even getting a 30th rounder who gets to like Ft. Myers should be worth something.

 

Guys taken in the first 3-5 rounds likely saw a lot of eyes besides just the local area scout, so ... I don't know.

 

I'm not sure what the evaluation process is. A guy like Mark Wilson signed Mauer and Perkins. Is it his fault that they didn't reach some pre-draft agreement with Sam Carlson, or that Logan Shore went to college? 

 

Again, my main point is I have no idea how to evaluate an area scout... But I feel it can't be solely based on which players from the area that the team drafted because there are too many other variables.

[Doomtints]

Gladden stated on the air that the only thing a scout needs is a love of baseball. I'm guessing the pay is roughly equivalent to minor league player wages, plus expenses.

 

An additional skill would be the ability to work independently and still be productive. In these cases I would guess it is this that was failing.

[yarnivek1972]

Gladden stated on the air that the only thing a scout needs is a love of baseball. I'm guessing the pay is roughly equivalent to minor league player wages, plus expenses.

 

An additional skill would be the ability to work independently and still be productive. In these cases I would guess it is this that was failing.

I suspect Gladden has no clue what he's talking about.

 

Maybe 30 years ago that was all you needed.

[Doomtints]

I would wager that Gladden has spoken extensively with most, if not all, of the scouts in the Twins organization.

[drivlikejehu]

I'm sure the scouts are evaluated on multiple areas, of which MLB outcomes is probably pretty low on the list. The Angels fired the scout that signed Trout a while back. 

 

Scouting reports are their primary work product, so those would be looked at carefully. Do they reflect the priorities of the organization? Maintaining close relationships with coaches and others in the assigned area is important, and connecting with players. 

 

Of course they would be expected to have an eye for talent, seeing as that's basically their job, but that wouldn't be limited to guys the Twins actually drafted and signed. A scout could absolutely nail it on a bunch of prospects but have them taken by other clubs - obviously their organization will only hold them accountable for identifying the talent.

[drjim]

 

I'm sure the scouts are evaluated on multiple areas, of which MLB outcomes is probably pretty low on the list. The Angels fired the scout that signed Trout a while back. 

 

Scouting reports are their primary work product, so those would be looked at carefully. Do they reflect the priorities of the organization? Maintaining close relationships with coaches and others in the assigned area is important, and connecting with players. 

 

Of course they would be expected to have an eye for talent, seeing as that's basically their job, but that wouldn't be limited to guys the Twins actually drafted and signed. A scout could absolutely nail it on a bunch of prospects but have them taken by other clubs - obviously their organization will only hold them accountable for identifying the talent.

 

This is pretty much exactly what Thad Levine said on Inside Twins yesterday when asked about the firing of the scouts.

 

-mlb outcomes were low on the list condiering all that goes into developing a prospect and the fact that, as you said, a scout can be all over a player and not have them drafted

-the most important point was the local relationships in the area.

[nicksaviking]

 

I would wager that Gladden has spoken extensively with most, if not all, of the scouts in the Twins organization.

 

Do all the scouts go to Sturgis also?!

 

I agree with a lot of your points about the where the organizational failings stem from, but I don't really agree that Gladden is tied into modern baseball and unless they pass by the clubhouse and broadcast booth, I'd think he has little interaction with the scouts who largely work remotely.

 

The idea that job security is going to be based on productivity and malleability instead of tenure does appear to be coming to fruition though. That's progress as far as I'm concerned, even if it's the impersonal and corporate way to do things. If you're going to win, you have to keep up with the Joneses. Mom and pop shops aren't suited to win in today's big money sports environment.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

I suspect Gladden has no clue what he's talking about.

Gladden scouted. Gladden is a little old school, and likes having his action figure persona, but he knows his ****. 

[nicksaviking]

 

Gladden scouted. Gladden is a little old school, and likes having his action figure persona, but he knows his ****. 

 

I think these are increasingly becoming contradictory though. Conventional wisdom and preconceived notions aren't getting you a leg up on the competition. 

 

While I cheer the Twins embracing the advancements for the sake of my favorite team doing all that needs to be done to put a winner together, I am a nostalgic guy. Back in the day I could have recited each member of the 3000 hit club, the 500 HR club and 300 win club. I studied the back of every baseball card and could have given a pretty solid bio about everyone in the HOF.

 

It's a bitter pill, but I want championships. What the game is now doesn't have to tarnish how I remembered it as a kid. It's just, different.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

I think these are increasingly becoming contradictory though. Conventional wisdom and preconceived notions aren't getting you a leg up on the competition. 

 

While I cheer the Twins embracing the advancements for the sake of my favorite team doing all that needs to be done to put a winner together, I am a nostalgic guy. Back in the day I could have recited each member of the 3000 hit club, the 500 HR club and 300 win club. I studied the back of every baseball card and could have given a pretty solid bio about everyone in the HOF.

 

It's a bitter pill, but I want championships. What the game is now doesn't have to tarnish how I remembered it as a kid. It's just, different.

True you are.

 

So in my defense, I guess I still keep a distinction between guys like Morris and Bert, who make **** up (my opinion of course) based on what they were told 40 years ago or whatever sounds good in the moment, and then Gladden, who is old school but tries to keep up and shoots pretty straight (most of the time). And again that is obviously just my opinion of it.

 

Not a diss on Morris or Bert, because they do their jobs well for their audiences. I don't know if Bert or Morris scouted, but I know Gladden did.

[Doomtints]

 

Do all the scouts go to Sturgis also?!

 

I agree with a lot of your points about the where the organizational failings stem from, but I don't really agree that Gladden is tied into modern baseball and unless they pass by the clubhouse and broadcast booth, I'd think he has little interaction with the scouts who largely work remotely.

 

The idea that job security is going to be based on productivity and malleability instead of tenure does appear to be coming to fruition though. That's progress as far as I'm concerned, even if it's the impersonal and corporate way to do things. If you're going to win, you have to keep up with the Joneses. Mom and pop shops aren't suited to win in today's big money sports environment.

 

How much do you think scouting could have changed? It's not analytical.

[nicksaviking]

How much do you think scouting could have changed? It's not analytical.

No idea. Are the scouts figuring out stuff like launch angle, exit velocity and spin rates? If they don't gather these kinds of new measurements perhaps not much has changed.

[nicksaviking]

True you are.

 

So in my defense, I guess I still keep a distinction between guys like Morris and Bert, who make **** up (my opinion of course) based on what they were told 40 years ago or whatever sounds good in the moment, and then Gladden, who is old school but tries to keep up and shoots pretty straight (most of the time). And again that is obviously just my opinion of it.

 

Not a diss on Morris or Bert, because they do their jobs well for their audiences. I don't know if Bert or Morris scouted, but I know Gladden did.

I may not have been fair to Gladden, if he's more open to baseball evolution than I assumed, kudos to him. It's good practice to embrace innovation for any occupation I would think.

[clutterheart]

Again, my main point is I have no idea how to evaluate an area scout... But I feel it can't be solely based on which players from the area that the team drafted because there are too many other variables.

From the reactions of a few bloggers I would wager that some of these fired guys are sources/contacts. Why don't those bloggers ask them these questions?

How are scouts evaluated? What makes a good scout? What's the general compensation package? etc

 

It would be an interesting peice

[The Wise One]

It is probably not for the players drafted that the area scouts would get fired over, it is the ones they would have recommended that the cross checkers would look and wonder what the first person saw.   College scouting is a whole different thing.. There is a service now that does all the metrics from video for college games. The company guessed correctly that teams would pay for a service because it would be cheaper than hiring more people to get the depth of information provided.