Stick a fork in Santiago

[DaveW]

I'm over this guy. Blaming his loss on "being old school and not liking shifts" just cut him now and get a "new school" thinker up here. 5.00 ERA wouldn't cut it in the "old school" either.

 

http://m.startribune.com/hector-santiago-s-struggles-continue-as-twins-fall-at-kc-in-road-trip-finale/432151833/#1

[Mike Sixel]

It's always been his style to pitch to contact. But it never looks good when you blame your manager in public.

[Darius]

Terrible pitcher. It's ridiculous that this team is trying to win a division and keeps running this guy out to get pounded.

 

Yes, there are better options.

[Vanimal46]

 

Terrible pitcher. It's ridiculous that this team is trying to win a division and keeps running this guy out to get pounded.

Yes, there are better options.

 

Who might that be? 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Who might that be? 

 

Jorge, Gonsalves, Romero.

 

I know some people believe that's "rushing" them, and it will "destroy" their future. I don't agree. 

 

This team needs between 4-6 starters next year. It's time to see what these guys have, or at least get them exposure this year, so they are more likely to be ready next year.

 

Clearly they have no assets to trade at the MLB level, is what we are told. There aren't exactly a ton of good FAs next year. They have said they aren't trading for rentals, only guys with years of control (who is trading those, exactly?).

 

Help comes from within, or there is not enough help.

[Dr. Evil]

I'm curious about these other options too. Who might they be?

[mikelink45]

When you have someone doing as poorly as Santiago it doesn't matter who starts, if they have any possibility of improving we are better off.  DFA Santiago and move on. 

[h2oface]

I hope, as part of the "evaluating", that Hughes is a part of it, too. And Perkins. Stick a fork in that before it gets to the plate. And Pressly.

[drjim]

 

Jorge, Gonsalves, Romero.

 

I know some people believe that's "rushing" them, and it will "destroy" their future. I don't agree. 

 

This team needs between 4-6 starters next year. It's time to see what these guys have, or at least get them exposure this year, so they are more likely to be ready next year.

 

Clearly they have no assets to trade at the MLB level, is what we are told. There aren't exactly a ton of good FAs next year. They have said they aren't trading for rentals, only guys with years of control (who is trading those, exactly?).

 

Help comes from within, or there is not enough help.

 

Personally I'm not concerned about destroying their future, just don't think they'll maintain success over multiple starts. Too much that needs to be cleaned up. Setting people up to fail is not a good long range strategy either.

[Thrylos]

Stick a fork on Antony too who gave up real value to bring him there.

[Craig Arko]

We're running out of forks. Better switch to chopsticks.

[Danchat]

 

Stick a fork on Antony too who gave up real value to bring him there.

Well... we did get Busenitz in that trade... yeah, he didn't do a great job. (on a side note, I still think Meyer could be a really solid reliever. But they really bungled his situation badly.)

[Vanimal46]

On a positive note, at least Nolasco and his 23 HRs allowed isn't on the team anymore! 

[Craig Arko]

On a positive note, at least Nolasco and his 23 HRs allowed isn't on the team anymore!

 

On an even more positive note, I bought beer. In Minnesota. On Sunday.

[Mike Sixel]

 

On an even more positive note, I bought beer. In Minnesota. On Sunday.

 

this is, truly, more important.

 

I think nearly every friend I have back there made a trip to the store yesterday!

[Squirrel]

 

Jorge, Gonsalves, Romero.

 

I know some people believe that's "rushing" them, and it will "destroy" their future. I don't agree. 

 

This team needs between 4-6 starters next year. It's time to see what these guys have, or at least get them exposure this year, so they are more likely to be ready next year.

 

Clearly they have no assets to trade at the MLB level, is what we are told. There aren't exactly a ton of good FAs next year. They have said they aren't trading for rentals, only guys with years of control (who is trading those, exactly?).

 

Help comes from within, or there is not enough help.

I agree that we should be trying these three. And I agree that it's not rushing them nor will it destroy their future. (Although I haven't really seen the 'destroy their future' comment before.) However, that's still not quite an endorsement that they will help this team this year. Again, yes, I think they should be getting their chances and that they will hopefully prove something and maybe they will help the team this year. But it's definitely not a they will help the team this year call, imo. It's still a leap/adjustment going from AAA to the Majors. Some slot in nicely, while others do not. But, I think it's still better than going with pitchers who have proven too hittable over and over again. That definitely doesn't help the team this year, either.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I agree that we should be trying these three. And I agree that it's not rushing them nor will it destroy their future. (Although I haven't really seen the 'destroy their future' comment before.) However, that's still not quite an endorsement that they will help this team this year. Again, yes, I think they should be getting their chances and that they will hopefully prove something and maybe they will help the team this year. But it's definitely not a they will help the team this year call, imo. It's still a leap/adjustment going from AAA to the Majors. Some slot in nicely, while others do not. But, I think it's still better than going with pitchers who have proven too hittable over and over again. That definitely doesn't help the team this year, either.

 

This year is nearly toast, imo. I'm planning for 18 and beyond if I'm the Twins.

 

An interesting tidbit, but really, the rotation is not all that changed from the original plan.

 

Santana, Berrios (was certainly part of the plan), Gibson, Santiago......yep, some of those guys (and Mejia) have missed some games, but the rotation is largely in tact. It's the complete lack of depth at AAA that is a huge issue. Sure, it would have been great to have Mejia in AAA as insurance, instead of the majors most of the year, but really, not much is all that different than last year, other than which really bad pitchers they've tried to sub in as needed. So, while they have shuffled a ton of guys in, this is the rotation they planned for, and this is the rotation they have (other than May).

 

I wonder how long Berrios would have been in AAA if May and Hughes were healthy, but bad like Gibson and Santiago have been?

[nicksaviking]

Most young pitchers struggle upon their call up, but it seems to me the young guys who like to try to get cute by picking at the corners instead of pounding the zone tend to have the rockiest MLB debuts. Gonsalves seems like one of those guys. If this team has eyes on him to be a factor next year, I'd rather he get his rocky start out of the way with now.

 

Even if it were possible for Gonsalves and Romero to be worse than Santiago, Gibson or any other starter who has gotten regularly shelled, the results likely will be negligible. A loss is a loss and a short start is a short start regardless if the starting pitcher gives up 6 runs or 8 runs.

 

Get the traditional rookie struggles out of the way this year when there really is no consequence to the win/loss record.

[Squirrel]

 

This year is nearly toast, imo. I'm planning for 18 and beyond if I'm the Twins.

 

An interesting tidbit, but really, the rotation is not all that changed from the original plan.

 

Santana, Berrios (was certainly part of the plan), Gibson, Santiago......yep, some of those guys (and Mejia) have missed some games, but the rotation is largely in tact. It's the complete lack of depth at AAA that is a huge issue. Sure, it would have been great to have Mejia in AAA as insurance, instead of the majors most of the year, but really, not much is all that different than last year, other than which really bad pitchers they've tried to sub in as needed. So, while they have shuffled a ton of guys in, this is the rotation they planned for, and this is the rotation they have (other than May).

 

I wonder how long Berrios would have been in AAA if May and Hughes were healthy, but bad like Gibson and Santiago have been?

Yeah, fair ... I guess you and I really have a different angle on this year. I'm not ready to give up on it ... it's not quite toasted for me. Yeah, the probability is low, but I think the possibility is still high enough to not completely give up on it. However, even then, I still think you give these guy the cup of coffee and see what they do. If they do well, give them another, until they don't. Once they know what they are up against, it will give them a better idea of what they need to do for next year without completely bowing out of this year. Then call one or two up in September, if none sticks for the rest of the year.

 

And yeah, don't know about the 'what if' question. I was always a 'Hughes in the bp makes the most sense' person, but May out ... that really hurt. Gotta think he would've done at least enough to be middle of the pack on this team. But again ... it's a big 'what if' and no way to know.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yeah, fair ... I guess you and I really have a different angle on this year. I'm not ready to give up on it ... it's not quite toasted for me. Yeah, the probability is low, but I think the possibility is still high enough to not completely give up on it. However, even then, I still think you give these guy the cup of coffee and see what they do. If they do well, give them another, until they don't. Once they know what they are up against, it will give them a better idea of what they need to do for next year without completely bowing out of this year. Then call one or two up in September, if none sticks for the rest of the year.

 

And yeah, don't know about the 'what if' question. I was always a 'Hughes in the bp makes the most sense' person, but May out ... that really hurt. Gotta think he would've done at least enough to be middle of the pack on this team. But again ... it's a big 'what if' and no way to know.

 

I should have left that part about Berrios off.....the real point? This rotation is pretty much what they planned it to be, other than May. And, it's still one of the worst in all of baseball.

 

If they don't make substantial changes, now that they've finally seen in person if these guys are good or not.....I'm with Chief. Not much confidence in them.

[drjim]

 

Most young pitchers struggle upon their call up, but it seems to me the young guys who like to try to get cute by picking at the corners instead of pounding the zone tend to have the rockiest MLB debuts. Gonsalves seems like one of those guys. If this team has eyes on him to be a factor next year, I'd rather he get his rocky start out of the way with now.

Even if it were possible for Gonsalves and Romero to be worse than Santiago, Gibson or any other starter who has gotten regularly shelled, the results likely will be negligible. A loss is a loss and a short start is a short start regardless if the starting pitcher gives up 6 runs or 8 runs.

Get the traditional rookie struggles out of the way this year when there really is no consequence to the win/loss record.

 

I don't think this is the way it works. If it was, they'd just send pitchers to the majors as soon as they were drafted.

 

I do agree Gonsalves will have some trouble when he debuts, for the reasons you mention, but it is not clear that he has developed the necessary resources to adjust. That is why he is still in the minors. This isn't about being 100% ready, but it is about having enough to be successful over the long term.

[drjim]

 

I should have left that part about Berrios off.....the real point? This rotation is pretty much what they planned it to be, other than May. And, it's still one of the worst in all of baseball.

 

If they don't make substantial changes, now that they've finally seen in person if these guys are good or not.....I'm with Chief. Not much confidence in them.

 

It would be quite stunning if they don't make any adjustments this offseason. If nothing else, they should trade anything with value and strip to the studs. 

[kab21]

 

Most young pitchers struggle upon their call up, but it seems to me the young guys who like to try to get cute by picking at the corners instead of pounding the zone tend to have the rockiest MLB debuts. Gonsalves seems like one of those guys. If this team has eyes on him to be a factor next year, I'd rather he get his rocky start out of the way with now.

Even if it were possible for Gonsalves and Romero to be worse than Santiago, Gibson or any other starter who has gotten regularly shelled, the results likely will be negligible. A loss is a loss and a short start is a short start regardless if the starting pitcher gives up 6 runs or 8 runs.

Get the traditional rookie struggles out of the way this year when there really is no consequence to the win/loss record.

I don't think it really works like this. Calling them up now doesn't get their rookie struggles out of the way right now.Calling them up now while they are still developing pitches leads to them abandoning those pitches because they get rocked. And then development time lost. Imo calling them up too early delays their eventual readiness to join a rotation contrary to the popular opinion that they are going to struggle anyway so let's get it out of the way now. It just isn't as simple as stated in this thread.

I am in favor of calling them up in August or September after they have pitched most of the MiLB season. Romero will obviously have to shift to the bullpen and possibly the others if someone steps forward in the rotation or a trade is made.

[drjim]

 

I don't think it really works like this. Calling them up now doesn't get their rookie struggles out of the way right now.Calling them up now while they are still developing pitches leads to them abandoning those pitches because they get rocked. And then development time lost. Imo calling them up too early delays their eventual readiness to join a rotation contrary to the popular opinion that they are going to struggle anyway so let's get it out of the way now. It just isn't as simple as stated in this thread.

I am in favor of calling them up in August or September after they have pitched most of the MiLB season. Romero will obviously have to shift to the bullpen and possibly the others if someone steps forward in the rotation or a trade is made.

 

This would be doubly so for a pitcher called up to a team that is (theoretically) still competing. Just a terrible idea to rush pitchers.

[nicksaviking]

 

I don't think this is the way it works. If it was, they'd just send pitchers to the majors as soon as they were drafted.

 

I do agree Gonsalves will have some trouble when he debuts, for the reasons you mention, but it is not clear that he has developed the necessary resources to adjust. That is why he is still in the minors. This isn't about being 100% ready, but it is about having enough to be successful over the long term.

 

I don't know, these guys have been in the system awhile. If we're talking about some guy who's only 12 months out of HS/college I would be pretty confident that there was more remedial stuff the guys had to do before going to the big stage. And there might be some of that with Romero; perhaps it's just the superior "stuff" but the perception is always that those guys need to take more time. 

 

But Gonsalves sounds more like he's pretty close to what he's going to be, he sounds like a pitcher, not a thrower already. If anything, he sounds like Berrios, a guy who probably threw too many pitches in the minors because he knows if he keeps throwing off the plate, he'll get guys to chase regularly. That hasn't backfired on him yet, but it will. I'd like him to learn that lesson now, not next year. Learning that what you're doing now isn't going to work in the future isn't a lesson most young people understand until they've been humbled, and it doesn't look like it's a lesson he's going to learn in the minors.

 

And I don't agree that getting to the majors puts a cap on your education and development. If it is, they don't have the right coaches and instructors.

[kab21]

We are talking about 3 young pitchers that are good but not great prospects with 25 (SG), 21 (FJ) and 14 (FR) GS at AA. Promoting them right now is certainly rushing them. Berrios had a lot more talent (Romero perhaps has the raw stuff) and had made 53 GS split between AA/AAA before his August 2016 callup. I don't see how their situations are even comparable.

[Mike Sixel]

 

We are talking about 3 young pitchers that are good but not great prospects with 25 (SG), 21 (FJ) and 14 (FR) GS at AA. Promoting them right now is certainly rushing them. Berrios had a lot more talent (Romero perhaps has the raw stuff) and had made 53 GS split between AA/AAA before his August 2016 callup. I don't see how their situations are even comparable.

 

If this is true, then the Twins need 2-3 new SP in MN next year, from outside the org, and another 2-3 new ones in AAA, from outside the org......good luck with that.

[drjim]

If this is true, then the Twins need 3 new SP in MN next year, from outside the org, and another 2-3 new ones in AAA, from outside the org......good luck with that.

They absolutely need 2-3 new pichers and more minor league depth. Is that even debatable?

 

Gonsalves, Romero and Jorge can probably be the 8-10 guys going into the season.

[Dr. Evil]

I think Santiago will come around. He is going through some struggles right now. But, I wouldn't stick a fork in him considering our lack of pitching depth. He was very good earlier in the season. Even if we do begin to audition the young guys there is still room for him. Why would we throw away depth when we have no depth? Because we are angry?

[yarnivek1972]

What does Santiago even mean by saying he doesn't like shifts? He doesn't position the players. He just needs to hit his spot on the called pitch and chances are the hitter will hit it into the shift. After all, the shift is based on the pitching game plan.