Outside the Box idea: Trade for Puig

[ThejacKmp]

 

Look at the Twins record the last five years with all the "good teammates" - Dozier, plouffe, suzuki, Hunter, Pelfrey etc. - and compare it to the Dodgers with Puig.    That stuff is media driven and overblown

 

It may be overblown in the cases you're talking about but that's not Puig's current situation.

 

Being a pain can be okay but only if a guy produces. Barry Bonds was fine as long as he produced. Puig isn't an everyday player for the Dodgers. If you're the Cubs and you're looking at adding a bench bat and OF depth o, it matters if a guy brings baggage because there are so few positives to outweigh the negative. Conversely, a guy like Francouer who adds something significant by being a good bench guy is important because he is asked for so little.

 

Similarly, if you are the Twins adding a 4th OF depth candidate to fight for a job, that good teammate bid matters. There are going to be waxes and wanes to playing time and you need a guy who can handle that. I disagree with any characterization of Hunter as a good teammate for that reason - he was always ready to complain in the media about playing time. (Also, he's a homophobic narcissist who slut shamed some high school girl to save his jock son from jail time but that's beside the point.)

 

That's why it makes sense for Puig to go to a smaller market team where he can play every day. So not the Twins and not a contender like the Cubs but a team like the White Sox, Braves, Phillies etc. He gets a chance to play everyday, shed that likely-overblown reputation and perhaps recover that early-career magic.

 

P.S. This is a side point but important to note. The Dodgers record the last two years has had little to do with Puig. Even if it did, it's still a bogus way to look at player achievement. The Twins record the last few years is not really based on Dozier alone. A baseball player is 1/25th of the team, not 1/8th or 1/9th like the NBA. I would never minimize Mike Trout by saying "look at the Angel's record".

[big dog]

 

Look at the Twins record the last five years with all the "good teammates" - Dozier, plouffe, suzuki, Hunter, Pelfrey etc. - and compare it to the Dodgers with Puig.    That stuff is media driven and overblown

If we could have Puig, Kershaw, and Greinke, then I say go for it.

[Everyday Eddy]

 

It may be overblown in the cases you're talking about but that's not Puig's current situation.

 

Being a pain can be okay but only if a guy produces. Barry Bonds was fine as long as he produced. Puig isn't an everyday player for the Dodgers. If you're the Cubs and you're looking at adding a bench bat and OF depth or the Twins adding a 4th OF lottery ticket, it matters if a guy brings baggage because there are so few positives to outweigh the negative. Conversely, a guy like Francouer who adds something significant by being a good bench guy is important because he is asked for so little.

 

That's why it makes sense for Puig to go to a smaller market team where he can play every day. So not the Twins (and not a contender like the Cubs) but a team like the White Sox, Braves, Phillies etc. He gets a chance to play everyday, shed that likely-overblown reputation and perhaps recover that early-career magic.

 

P.S. The Dodgers record the last two years has had little to do with Puig. Similarly, the Twins record the last few years is not really based on Dozier alone.

He would play every day with the Twins (Buxton, Kepler, Puig).    And obviously Dozier is not the problem.    I was just pointing out that having a bunch of good teammates like the Twins have supposedly had the last bunch of seasons is not nearly as valuable as having talent.

[DaveW]

The idea that this Twins team, the worst in the American league couldn't find at bats or playing time for Puig is simply absurd.

[ThejacKmp]

 

I'd be shocked if he's "fighting" against Grossman or Rosario......shocked.

 

Shocked?

 

Puig the last two years has a .258/.321/.411/.732 line while being a general knucklehead and giving a subpar effort in the field. Even though Rosario has struggled, he has a .261/.282/.441/.723 line while being a good teammate and being an engaged, productive defender. Grossman has a very small sample size but he’s .247/.370/.398/.768 over the past two years and is trending up, not sideways at best.

 

Listen, Puig is clearly a better prospect with more upside. I would never argue against his potentially transcendent talent – he could be a perennial MVP candidate while Rosario’s ceiling is fringe All-Star and Grossman’s is above-average corner outfielder. In fact, I’ve agreed with Dave W that if we can get him for not much, it would be great (though I doubt the price involved).

 

I just think we need to also note that the Twins just aren’t a good fit for him. He needs to be somewhere where there isn’t a better option so he has a long leash. If Puig is being lazy in the OF on a 1210 Wednesday game and acting the prima donna on the bench, how can a team like the Twins not put a hustling, uncomplaining player like Rosario out there in his place? How can they not give Grossman the 4th OF opportunities? We just aren’t a good fit for Puig, in spite of his huge potential. He would be an uneasy fit for the Twins and would be better off in a less murky situation.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Shocked?

 

Puig the last two years has a .258/.321/.411/.732 line while being a general knucklehead and giving a subpar effort in the field. Even though Rosario has struggled, he has a .261/.282/.441/.723 line while being a good teammate and being an engaged, productive defender. Grossman has a very small sample size but he’s .247/.370/.398/.768 over the past two years and is trending up, not sideways at best.

 

Listen, Puig is clearly a better prospect with more upside. I would never argue against his potentially transcendent talent – he could be a perennial MVP candidate while Rosario’s ceiling is fringe All-Star and Grossman’s is above-average corner outfielder. In fact, I’ve agreed with Dave W that if we can get him for not much, it would be great (though I doubt the price involved).

 

I just think we need to also note that the Twins just aren’t a good fit for him. He needs to be somewhere where there isn’t a better option so he has a long leash. If Puig is being lazy in the OF on a 1210 Wednesday game and acting the prima donna on the bench, how can a team like the Twins not put a hustling, uncomplaining player like Rosario out there in his place? How can they not give Grossman the 4th OF opportunities? We just aren’t a good fit for Puig, in spite of his huge potential. He would be an uneasy fit for the Twins and would be better off in a less murky situation.

 

All fair.....I guess I'd be shocked because I think one of those two would go back in the deal......

 

I'd probably roll the dice on this one, at some point, you have to take chances.

[Everyday Eddy]

 

 

Listen, Puig is clearly a better prospect with more upside. I would never argue against his potentially transcendent talent – he could be a perennial MVP candidate while Rosario’s ceiling is fringe All-Star and Grossman’s is above-average corner outfielder.

 

 

This is all that needs to be considered.    If there's ever a team that can have an extremely long leash for Puig it's the Twins.

[ThejacKmp]

 

He would play every day with the Twins (Buxton, Kepler, Puig).    And obviously Dozier is not the problem.    I was just pointing out that having a bunch of good teammates like the Twins have supposedly had the last bunch of seasons is not nearly as valuable as having talent.

 

Yeah. I edited that a bit while you posted so may be worth re-looking at. Also see a response to Mike Sixel.

 

I'm just not sure he would play every day. He would likely start with the job due to talent but the Twins have good inside options with Rosario and Grossman. Maybe that competition would push Puig to give his best but the same thing never did the trick in L.A. And then you have the headache of Puig complaining on the bench and you have trouble even giving him away.

 

I think it's a moo point because there's no way that Dave W's trade valuation is even close to fair. As you have pointed out, he's got so much talent and the LA situation has been so bad that the Dodgers could get something real for him. That actually pushes my point a bit - I love Puig for nothing because I'm not an idiot but I'm not sure the Twins should be using prospects to go fill one of the few organizational strengths.

[ThejacKmp]

 

All fair.....I guess I'd be shocked because I think one of those two would go back in the deal......

 

I'd probably roll the dice on this one, at some point, you have to take chances.

 

I mean, Grossman for Puig? Heck yeah. That's just not going to happen. We should flip Centeno for Trout while we're at it!

 

Rosario could be involved in a Puig trade but if I'm trading Rosario, I'd rather let him build value over the last part of the year and then trade him for pitching in the offseason. Rosario isn't going to be anything more than a throw-in for a Puig trade right now but a strong second half could change his value. Can't sell low on him (though it may be time to sell soon).

[ThejacKmp]

 

This is all that needs to be considered.    If there's ever a team that can have an extremely long leash for Puig it's the Twins.

 

But you're not just getting him on waivers, you're going to have to give up real value to get him. That's the difference. 29 teams would add Puig for a pittance but that's why he won't be a pittance. And if you're the Twins, is this where you want to expend capital?

 

The Twins are not the team with the long leash. They have other good options and are a young developing team that isn't going to easily curb Puig. You need a team with a clear OF need and/or a strong veteran club. The White Sox fit both since they have respected veterans and a clear need in the OF. A team like the Braves might make sense from a need perspective.

 

The Twins just aren't a good fit as long as the price isn't something ridiculous like Suzuki+Grossman+Palka. Which it won't be, Puig is too young with too much talent to go for a crappy package.

[Willihammer]

Re: Puig's clubhouse toxicity.

I just listened to the Baseball Tonight / Buster Olney podcast for 7/29. According to him anyway, the Dodgers clubhouse is as good as he's ever seen it. If true, perhaps Puig has matured into more of a team player this season.

[DaveW]

 

I mean, Grossman for Puig? Heck yeah. That's just not going to happen. We should flip Centeno for Trout while we're at it!

 

Rosario could be involved in a Puig trade but if I'm trading Rosario, I'd rather let him build value over the last part of the year and then trade him for pitching in the offseason. Rosario isn't going to be anything more than a throw-in for a Puig trade right now but a strong second half could change his value. Can't sell low on him (though it may be time to sell soon).

Did I ever say Grossman for Puig?

I said Suzuki+Grossman+a mid twenties prospect (or Abad/Kintzler etc) for Puig.

 

The Dodgers are pretty much fed up with Puig and are trying to win NOW, I think Puig could be had for not a whole lot since the Dodgers just want to move on at this stage.

[DaveW]

 

 

But you're not just getting him on waivers, you're going to have to give up real value to get him. That's the difference. 29 teams would add Puig for a pittance but that's why he won't be a pittance. And if you're the Twins, is this where you want to expend capital?

 

I want the Twins to spend capital to bring in potential elite players.

Nobody knows exactly what it would take to get Puig, many assume that it wouldn't take a top tier package to get him at this point. If you can provide the Dodgers some short term help for 2016 then they may be willing to listen.

 

[Everyday Eddy]

 

Yeah. I edited that a bit while you posted so may be worth re-looking at. Also see a response to Mike Sixel.

 

I'm just not sure he would play every day. He would likely start with the job due to talent but the Twins have good inside options with Rosario and Grossman. Maybe that competition would push Puig to give his best but the same thing never did the trick in L.A. And then you have the headache of Puig complaining on the bench and you have trouble even giving him away.

 

I think it's a moo point because there's no way that Dave W's trade valuation is even close to fair. As you have pointed out, he's got so much talent and the LA situation has been so bad that the Dodgers could get something real for him. That actually pushes my point a bit - I love Puig for nothing because I'm not an idiot but I'm not sure the Twins should be using prospects to go fill one of the few organizational strengths.

I guess we disagree on "good options."    Rosario and Grossman are both 4th OF in my opinion, so I think Puig's playing time would not be an issue if he were here.    And one of them would probably go in the deal.    I am not going to speculate on hypothetical off-field issues with Puig.    No one here really knows how he would act in MN or what kind of teammate he'd be so it doesn't do any good to pretend we know.

[alarp33]

 

But you're not just getting him on waivers, you're going to have to give up real value to get him. That's the difference. 29 teams would add Puig for a pittance but that's why he won't be a pittance. And if you're the Twins, is this where you want to expend capital?

 

The Twins are not the team with the long leash. They have other good options and are a young developing team that isn't going to easily curb Puig. You need a team with a clear OF need and/or a strong veteran club. The White Sox fit both since they have respected veterans and a clear need in the OF. A team like the Braves might make sense from a need perspective.

 

The Twins just aren't a good fit as long as the price isn't something ridiculous like Suzuki+Grossman+Palka. Which it won't be, Puig is too young with too much talent to go for a crappy package.

 

In one post you call Rosario just a toss in on any deal, and then in this post Puig isn't a fit because he won't have playing time with Rosario around.  Make up your mind. 

 

I like that a last place club who has a Left Fielder with a .250 OBP doesn't fit your criteria for a team with a clear OF need

[Everyday Eddy]

 

But you're not just getting him on waivers, you're going to have to give up real value to get him. That's the difference. 29 teams would add Puig for a pittance but that's why he won't be a pittance. And if you're the Twins, is this where you want to expend capital?

 

The Twins are not the team with the long leash. They have other good options and are a young developing team that isn't going to easily curb Puig. You need a team with a clear OF need and/or a strong veteran club. The White Sox fit both since they have respected veterans and a clear need in the OF. A team like the Braves might make sense from a need perspective.

 

The Twins just aren't a good fit as long as the price isn't something ridiculous like Suzuki+Grossman+Palka. Which it won't be, Puig is too young with too much talent to go for a crappy package.

I'd put Suzuki, Rosario and a 15-20 prospect on the table for him and tell the Dodgers to take it or leave it.

[nicksaviking]

 

I think Antony realizes the writing is on the wall and anything baring a miracle means he won't be GM heading into 2017.

What is a good way to "make a miracle" happen?
Make an amazing trade for an amazingly talented player and hope it's the kick in the rear that he needs.

 

As far as him starting brawls or what-not, we complain all the time that the Twins are to boring. Maybe this team needs someone with a little attitude/what not.

 

Again, I'm not against giving Puig a shot, but Anthony presenting Pohlad with Puig, a guy who the LA Media has savaged and fair or not, has the reputation of being a cancer, is like buying your wife a new vacuum as a make-up present after a fight.

 

If it's presented wrong, you're sleeping on the couch. Even if Puig ends up being a good investment, whatever he does in 2017 or beyond isn't going help Anthony's cause now.

[DaveW]

If Anthony is that fearful of the Pohlads and isn't confident enough to explain his reasoning behind his moves then he shouldn't be a GM to begin with.

I think you are reading way too much into all of that. The Pohlads want the stands filled and want to make money, very little else matters to the. If Puig reaches his potential he helps the team win and brings fans to the seats.

[Jham]

Dodgers will require a win-now piece and a comparable upside talent in return.  They will at least want a shot at winning the trade.  If Puig blows up somewhere, and you traded him for  Zuke, ABW3 and Abad, you're humiliated.  No GM would risk that.  I'm guessing they'd want Gibson who has been similarly up and down, and I wouldn't call such a demand unfair.  We need pitching more than Puig, so no thanks.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Again, I'm not against giving Puig a shot, but Anthony presenting Pohlad with Puig, a guy who the LA Media has savaged and fair or not, has the reputation of being a cancer, is like buying your wife a new vacuum as a make-up present after a fight.

 

Wait, you mean to say buying my wife a new vacuum after a fight is a bad way to make up?

[nicksaviking]

 

Wait, you mean to say buying my wife a new vacuum after a fight is a bad way to make up?

 

So I've been told. Even worse if it's a used vacuum.

[nicksaviking]

 

If Anthony is that fearful of the Pohlads and isn't confident enough to explain his reasoning behind his moves then he shouldn't be a GM to begin with.
 

 

No disagreement here. I thought it was foolish to get rid of the GM mid-season, it would only cause myriad conflicts of interest for the interim guy who should be making moves for the future but instead would be tempted to do things to win games now to "prove" the team can recover because of him.

[mickeymental]

all the owners should clear the way and let puig land with the team where he truly belongs: the new york yankees.

[ThejacKmp]

 

I'd put Suzuki, Rosario and a 15-20 prospect on the table for him and tell the Dodgers to take it or leave it.

 

They would tell you to leave it.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Did I ever say Grossman for Puig?

I said Suzuki+Grossman+a mid twenties prospect (or Abad/Kintzler etc) for Puig.

 

The Dodgers are pretty much fed up with Puig and are trying to win NOW, I think Puig could be had for not a whole lot since the Dodgers just want to move on at this stage.

 

If they want to win now they can get a lot more than a 4th/5th OF, a backup catcher and a LH reliever.

[Willihammer]

Dodgers just acquired Reddick.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Sadly, the fame went to his head. He's what my grandfather would call a "hot dog", high risk high reward. Needs to get his head on straight

[DaveW]

 

Dodgers just acquired Reddick.

Wow, yeah I think that means Puig is definitely heavily on the block.
Go get him!

[Vanimal46]

 

Wow, yeah I think that means Puig is definitely heavily on the block.
Go get him!

They did just trade away Kemp... Reddick may just be his replacement. 

EDIT: I'm an idiot. Thought Kemp was still on the Dodgers... What year is it again?

[DaveW]

 

They did just trade away Kemp... Reddick may just be his replacement. 

EDIT: I'm an idiot. Thought Kemp was still on the Dodgers... What year is it again?

lol