Aroldis Chapman?

[halfchest]

Re: Kirby and Chapman domestic problems

 

There is a big difference between having someone already in your organization with allegations/convictions and actively pursuing a player that has had issues in the past.  It's a weak comparison at best.  Yes, people deserve second chances and I think the original comment was dead on.  Can't fault the Twins for not going after the guy when he's got off the field crap going on right now.  Has nothing to do with Kirby or anyone else past or present in Twins organization. 

[tobi0040]

 

Re: Kirby and Chapman domestic problems

 

There is a big difference between having someone already in your organization with allegations/convictions and actively pursuing a player that has had issues in the past.  It's a weak comparison at best.  Yes, people deserve second chances and I think the original comment was dead on.  Can't fault the Twins for not going after the guy when he's got off the field crap going on right now.  Has nothing to do with Kirby or anyone else past or present in Twins organization. 

 

If memory serves, Kirby was also let go/forced to resign, or stepped down as a result of incidents coming forward.

[Mike Sixel]

 

If memory serves, Kirby was also let go/forced to resign, or stepped down as a result of incidents coming forward.

 

Correct, he stepped down. We don't know what conversations took place, or didn't take place.

[tobi0040]

 

Correct, he stepped down. We don't know what conversations took place, or didn't take place.

 

So the comparison between Chapman and Kirby is really odd.

[big dog]

 

You seem to forget that Kirby was a Twins' Executive Vice President during and after the abuse allegations.

He wasn't exactly in the public eye- wasn't he living in Arizona at the time?  Not the same thing as playing center field and being announced to the fans on a daily basis.  I think you're grasping at straws here, personally.

[bird]

I'm ambivalent about professional athletes once they step outside of the lines, good and bad. I respect an organization's right to make a call on a person's character, and view this as a good business practice in general.

 

It would not have troubled me to see him in a Twins uniform, but I'd be happy if his realtor picked someone else's neighborhood for him. Abuse is not a "mistake". I'm personally intolerant about this, and hope his punishment is harsh.

[James]

We don't know that the Twins did not make an offer.  I'm not saying that they did make one, but there is no evidence either way.  I would bet that TR spoke to Jocketty a few times this offseason.  What they discussed, who knows.  But there is an assumption out there that no discussion ever took place, which may or may not be true.  We don't know.  

 

The Twins FO is generally keep things very internal and we often don't hear much until a deal is pretty much done.

 

As for Chapman, I love the talent, but these allegations are very disturbing.  I wouldn't want him anywhere my team for that reason.  

[Vanimal46]

What do you think was the biggest factor in not pursuing Chapman? The latest allegations probably played a factor, but he also has no official charges from that incident. I think the more important reason is the Twins did not want to pay him $10 million and $12.5 million next year to retain him.

[sane09]

 

It may well work out for the Yankees and they certainly have a crazy top 3

John Ryan Murphy escaped New York just in time!

Can you imagine catching foul tips in the face-mask when Chapman, Miller and Betances are pitching?

The Yankee catchers will all be talking like Rocky Balboa by Labor Day.

[DAM DC Twins Fans]

 

 

 

As for Chapman, I love the talent, but these allegations are very disturbing.  I wouldn't want him anywhere my team for that reason.  

 

 

Yes, that's the point--he shot a gun EIGHT times.  I don't want him on my team.  As for Kirby, I don't support what he did either...

 

It is my understanding that there is an ongoing investigation that could lead to jail time for Chapman.  That is the gamble the Yanks took--no jail time--if jail time a bad trade.  If no jail time but a 50 suspension--then giving up a few prospects/suspects a good trade--UNLESS something else happens.

[Loosey]

So New York Yankees = Dallas Cowboys?

 

Everyone's bandwagon team and neither team thinks domestic assault is that big of a deal.

[sane09]

 

So New York Yankees = Dallas Cowboys?

 

Everyone's bandwagon team and neither team thinks domestic assault is that big of a deal.

I hope the "New York Yankees = Dallas Cowboys" W-L %!

[sane09]

 

Yes, that's the point--he shot a gun EIGHT times...giving up a few prospects/suspects a good trade--UNLESS something else happens.

Like his aim improving?

[Vanimal46]

So New York Yankees = Dallas Cowboys?

 

Everyone's bandwagon team and neither team thinks domestic assault is that big of a deal.

The MLB did not think domestic assault was a big deal for years until they implemented a new rule in August of this year. Now Manfried has the power to suspend players for this kind of behavior.

 

He has 2 cases in front of him, Chapman and Jose Reyes. Nothing yet on their discipline going into next season.

 

Here's a list of all the MLB players that the league itself has issued suspensions for in the last 125 years:

 

-

-

-

[nicksaviking]

 

So New York Yankees = Dallas Cowboys?

 

Everyone's bandwagon team and neither team thinks domestic assault is that big of a deal.

 

The difference between the Twins and Yankees getting hit with the Chapman off-field bullet is about the difference between Ant-Man and the Hulk getting hit by an actual bullet.

 

The Yankees are a staple, their brand is protected and this ugly mess isn't going to hurt them. I'm not sure a video of their whole team throwing a Hitler party in the clubhouse would even make a dent in their product.

[Pius Jefferson]

I think Chapman is suspended but Betances ends up missing more time.  He looks like a TJ surgery waiting to happen. Last year he had arm fatigue and was not the same pitcher in 2nd half. He was still a good reliever but the drop was noticeable. 

[Squirrel]

Moderator note: Please stick to the topic ... the Chapman deal. If you want to have a discussion on domestic violence among professional athletes, start a topic on that in the sports bar. I understand the segue but let's keep to this topic and have a separate thread for the broader issue to give it its due.

 

This also not a discussion on Kirby Puckett. I also understand why some want to bring Kirby into this discussion as a peripheral, but I think that's a separate issue for another thread.

 

This is also not a thread about the NFL and its rules. Again, if you want to have a discussion on professional sports and the issue of domestic violence, start a separate thread on that and discuss it.

[Monkeypaws]

I'd rather go after a drug-violation culprit than a guy like Chapman - I know, innocent until proven guilty, etc., except this kind of stuff goes unpunished/unreported more than not. Who knows how many more incidents, somewhat less violent, checker this guy's past.

 

There are actually good ballplayers that are nice to women: no need to add his "character" to the mix, win or lose.

 

He reminds me of Patrick Kane of the Black Hawks: one incident after another.

 

 

[Kwak]

Character issues aside--Chapman makes no sense for the Twins--at best, he is an expensive short-term rental before he declares free-agency.  The cost,  just to have him, is huge. If said money is available, it could be far better spent elsewhere than on a closer.

[USAFChief]

Character issues aside--Chapman makes no sense for the Twins--at best, he is an expensive short-term rental before he declares free-agency. The cost, just to have him, is huge. If said money is available, it could be far better spent elsewhere than on a closer.

Character issues aside, I couldn't disagree more.

 

I can't think of a single player available at similar cost that would improve the 2016 Twins more than Chapman.

 

He's on a one yr contract, at 3rd yr arb prices. Dirt cheap trade costs. Perkins is now your late inning lefty, every other pen member moves back one slot. You'll get a comp pick when he leaves.

 

Where else are you going to get that kind of bang for the buck?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't expect the Twins to aim as high as a guy like Chapman - not right now, anyway - but I'm dismayed at their inability to get anything of note done about the bullpen to this point.

 

If the Twins pursue a guy of Chapman's ability, I'd like to see them go big and get a guy who will be here for 2-3 years, not one... And it makes the most sense to do that via free agency.

 

I'm not in love with the idea of giving up significant farm pieces for a one-year rental of a reliever.

 

YMMV, obviously.

[drjim]

Character issues aside, I couldn't disagree more.

 

I can't think of a single player available at similar cost that would improve the 2016 Twins more than Chapman.

 

He's on a one yr contract, at 3rd yr arb prices. Dirt cheap trade costs. Perkins is now your late inning lefty, every other pen member moves back one slot. You'll get a comp pick when he leaves.

 

Where else are you going to get that kind of bang for the buck?

Agree with all of this, but character issue is why he is available for this little (and I wouldn't go for him).

 

But yes, I would absolutely trade some of our non-elite prospects for even a one year guy this year.

[USAFChief]

?.. character issue is why he is available for this little (and I wouldn't go for him).

Concur.

 

I have mixed feelings about this myself, and can understand why others wouldn't want him in a Twins uniform.

 

My points are purely from a baseball perspective. Great value for the Yankees, would have been an absolutely fabulous pickup for the Twins, baseball wise.

[h2oface]

 

He reminds me of Patrick Kane of the Black Hawks: one incident after another.

 

 

What are the other incidents you refer to for Chapman? The 2 others that I am aware of have to do with his ex-girlfriend. One was a noise complaint when she was having a party at the house they then were cohabitating and he wasn't in town and the police came, and the other was again involving his ex-girlfriend/mother of child, when she allegedly used a key she wasn't supposed to have after the breakup and "broke in" to the residence she was no longer living in to get clothes and furniture, and it set off alarms. Are you aware of other reported incidents? I cannot comment on the he said she said about a choke with no evidence or marks, but find the gun play alarming, even if it was with him alone in his garage (with lots of others in the house).

 

He sure is a good pitcher. 

[biggentleben]

 

I think Chapman is suspended but Betances ends up missing more time.  He looks like a TJ surgery waiting to happen. Last year he had arm fatigue and was not the same pitcher in 2nd half. He was still a good reliever but the drop was noticeable. 

 

I watched a number of his games in both halves of the season, and I just don't see much there. He had a bout in September where he simply lost control of the ball and walked 1/4 of his entire season's total in a span of 9 1/3 innings. Up until September 1, he had no difference in his game first half to second half whatsoever. Heck, even with the September struggles, he even had a better overall ERA in the second half than he did in the first half.

[Old Twins Cap]

I hear that if Chapman's suspension is 30 games or so, he still qualifies as a Free Agent after 2016 and the Yanks have to rebid on his services.  So, for any team, this is a partial season rental.  The Yanks of course, can throw millions at him after this year if it works out. 

 

Thus, four players of middling potential is not a great haul, but, given the circumstances, if you are Cincy, what are you going to do?  He's still likely a free agent after the season, and he's shot up a neighborhood.  And, he might come out flat after being suspended till May. 

 

Yeah, it seems like the Yanks mopped the floor with this deal, but, at the end of the day, the Reds held a poor hand and bailed.  Remember, the value of a closer on a rebuilding team is limited.

[Pius Jefferson]

 

I watched a number of his games in both halves of the season, and I just don't see much there. He had a bout in September where he simply lost control of the ball and walked 1/4 of his entire season's total in a span of 9 1/3 innings. Up until September 1, he had no difference in his game first half to second half whatsoever. Heck, even with the September struggles, he even had a better overall ERA in the second half than he did in the first half.

 

It's not so much about performance. It's looking at the recent history of pitchers like Betances. Hard throwing strikeout pitchers have tendency to be overused by their teams. The Yankees have a history of it and I think it happens with Betances this season.

[nicksaviking]

 

If the Twins pursue a guy of Chapman's ability, I'd like to see them go big and get a guy who will be here for 2-3 years, not one... And it makes the most sense to do that via free agency.

 

I'm not in love with the idea of giving up significant farm pieces for a one-year rental of a reliever.

 

YMMV, obviously.

 

Right, I don't think Chapman puts this team over the top in 2016, he'd make them better, but not enough to win. These moves make more sense when the Twins are regular contenders.

 

[drjim]

 

Right, I don't think Chapman puts this team over the top in 2016, he'd make them better, but not enough to win. These moves make more sense when the Twins are regular contenders.

 

While I don't want Chapman specifically, I disagree with this reasoning. I understood (and advocated) patience until this year, now the team is on the cusp and they should be willing to add talent at all times, so long as they aren't giving up their best handful of prospects for one year rentals.

 

They could have easily matched what the Yankees gave up without it harming their long term competitiveness, and if anything it would have helped bridge the gap as some of the younger guys continue to emerge. By all means they should go after someone in a similar situation as Chapman (contract wise and somewhat close in performance, not off the field) - though admittedly I don't know who that is at the moment.

[tobi0040]

Color me baffled on this one. 

 

Two months ago the guy hit and choked his girlfriend, then proceeded to fire a gun eight times inside a house.  Best case, he fired the gun to scare and threaten her.  Worst case he was firing at her, which is called attempted murder last I checked.

 

And about half the folks here are disappointed we didn’t trade for him, prior to even knowing which one.