Why so much love for Plouffe?

[mazeville]

There's plenty of speculation, here and elsewhere, that Trevor Plouffe will be traded in the offseason to make way for Miguel Sano. 

 

Not surprisingly, this has led to something of a backlash among some who insist Trevor Plouffe shouldn't be traded. He's a productive third baseman and an "above average defender." 

 

Ugh.

 

I'll agree Plouffe is reasonably productive and an above average defender. In no way does this make him an untradeable. 

 

But Plouffe is hardly a world-beater with the bat. He was 14th among league third basemen in OPS at .742. That's decidedly average. And he's 29, so it's not like his prime years are ahead of him. Granted, he led the Twins at 2.5 WAR, but that was more a fault of the Twins' lack of real top-flight players outside of Sano.

 

The Twins have a logjam of corner infielders and designated hitters. Joe Mauer is more or less stuck at first for three more years, regardless of what Souhan wants. Some platoon option does nobody any favors. It certainly doesn't help a player like Sano get better at fielding grounders at third or first. 

 

You're not going to put Sano in the outfield, not when we have like 57 of them. The Twins would have to trade multiple outfielders to make room for him there. Maybe they could do that, and maybe they should. But you're still much better off in Target Field with an outfield of Rosario-Buxton-Hicks-Kepler.

 

That leaves Plouffe the best option for a potential trade to break this logjam. And, because he is an apparent competent third baseman, and under team control for two more seasons, he should be able to get something in the trade market. Maybe it's a young pitcher. Maybe it's a catcher. 

 

This is how trades work. You trade from an area of plenty -- in this case third -- to shore up an area of need. And to get quality, you have to give up quality. 

 

Yet it drives me nuts when people insist that anybody good cannot be traded. Of course he can be traded! And once you trade Plouffe, you open things up.

 

Sano can fit at third. If you're that scared of his defense, make Mauer play there and put Sano at first. (Mauer should have been the third baseman years ago). And then you open up DH for one of your can't-field bats, like Arcia or Josmil Pinto or Kennys Vargas. One of those guys has to be able to break through. And remember that Arcia hit 20-plus homers just one season ago.

 

I like Trevor Plouffe. I don't like him enough that he has to be chained to his Twins uniform for life.

[nytwinsfan]

I completely agree, although I also think the Twins should wait/try to get good value for Plouffe, and that especially if Hunter isn't back there would be value in having Plouffe on the team the first part of next year until Kepler and Buxton come back up. That being said, if you can get good value for him (for example a catcher with decent upside or (probably with additional guys in a package) a good starting pitcher prospect), then by all means pull the trigger this winter.

[stringer bell]

I wrote quite a while ago that Trevor Plouffe was a nice player, but he wasn't the type that could or should block a talent like Sano. I still believe that. Plouffe has been a nice story--when he first came up he was a bad shortstop, then he developed some power after a trip to the minors. He settled in at third because the Twins had no one else and developed in to a more-than-competent defender. As a hitter, Plouffe grew out of the "one trick pony" mode of hitting homers, but doing little else productive. However, he's not an All-Star with the bat.

 

If the Twins can get something good for Plouffe, they should go for it.

[ashbury]

That being said, if you can get good value for him (for example a catcher with decent upside or (probably with additional guys in a package) a good starting pitcher prospect), then by all means pull the trigger this winter.

+1 for the nested parens. Few thoughts worth sharing can be adequately expressed (In My (Not So) Humble Opinion) without this valuable technique.

[Winston Smith]

I'm not sure you can get much for him, he is rather average.

 

You probably can get more for Dozier, maybe you could move Plouffe to second. He was a shortstop he should be able to play 2B.

[mikecgrimes]

It's all about the return.  Yeah I'd rather do something about Mauer but we can deal with that situation with or without getting an asset for a replaceable player.  Terry Ryan usually is pretty good with this sort of trade, and there's no great reason not to trade him.  

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

(

+1 for the nested parens. Few thoughts worth sharing can be adequately expressed (In My (Not So) Humble Opinion) without this valuable technique.

)

[Vanimal46]

Plouffe should and (hopefully) (will) be traded this (offseason) for (someone) that can ((help) this team)

[darin617]

Why does the Plouffe/Sano situation make me think back into the past when the Twins had Kent Hrbek and Paul Sorrento and decided to deal one away. We all know how that turned out, Hrbek gets hurt and we stuggled to find another first baseman after that.

[Platoon]

I have never understood why switching Plouffe, Mauer, and Sano around between first, third, and DH on different days would improve the offense? But a left handed power bat at DH to protect Sano might. And once again for those who missed it the first ten times, if Sano cannot replace Plouffe at third, then everyone needs to lower their expectations for Sano, and the Twins.

[twinsnorth49]

(I think they should trade Plouffe)

 

(hopefully for a catcher)

[Pius Jefferson]

From a skill set. Mauer to third makes less sense than Mauer back to catcher. He's at best okay at certain aspects of playing 1st and poor in others.

[Brandon]

I wrote quite a while ago that Trevor Plouffe was a nice player, but he wasn't the type that could or should block a talent like Sano. I still believe that. Plouffe has been a nice story--when he first came up he was a bad shortstop, then he developed some power after a trip to the minors. He settled in at third because the Twins had no one else and developed in to a more-than-competent defender. As a hitter, Plouffe grew out of the "one trick pony" mode of hitting homers, but doing little else productive. However, he's not an All-Star with the bat.

 

If the Twins can get something good for Plouffe, they should go for it.

[Brandon]

Plouffe also kind of reminds us of Koskie as the story is similar. But I feel anyone should be tradeable as Terry Ryan try to set this team up the best he can. Our window to win is now open. I am curious to see how this winter plays out. ...... I wonder if we could trade Plouffe, Hicks, and Nolasco in a trade with San Diego for Shields. ..some balancing out with prospects...

[darin617]

 

Plouffe also kind of reminds us of Koskie as the story is similar. But I feel anyone should be tradeable as Terry Ryan try to set this team up the best he can. Our window to win is now open. I am curious to see how this winter plays out. ...... I wonder if we could trade Plouffe, Hicks, and Nolasco in a trade with San Diego for Shields. ..some balancing out with prospects...

Please end the madness of a Shields trade.

[Brandon]

I wasn't so much thinking of Shields trade as much of trading Nolasco and getting a contract in return.

[kab21]

 

Why does the Plouffe/Sano situation make me think back into the past when the Twins had Kent Hrbek and Paul Sorrento and decided to deal one away. We all know how that turned out, Hrbek gets hurt and we stuggled to find another first baseman after that.

This is my concern as well.  Right now the Twins have 2 MLB 3B on the team.  If you trade one and the other gets hurt for awhile then it is Eduardo Nunez in the lineup every day.  that is not awesome.

 

I like Vargas as a prospect (not technically one) but I am not making this trade to force open a spot for him.  Likewise I am not convinced that the Twins have 3 OF'ers that are going to be able to hold down a starting spot for the whole season (being successful and un-injured) so I am not in a rush to trade Plouffe to open up DH for question marks.

[Winston Smith]

Plouffe for Kimbrel would be a trade I'd like. I doubt SD would, however.

[bird]

The Twins have six dozen baseball people down in Fort Myers right now for a week-long meeting at which they discuss every single player under contract in both the minors and on the 40-man. I hope some people raise their hands and point out that the Twins are going absolutely nowhere in the future without two things for certain: 1) a starting catcher who is markedly better, both defensively and offensively, than Suzuki, and 2) a starting pitcher who is better than either Hughes or Santana.

 

I'm hoping the strategy is to be more open to and active in the trade market this off-season, but I'm also hoping the trigger only gets pulled if the judgment is that someone else is going to overpay for what you have, at least a little. If I'm the GM, I trade from surplus only, and I dangle high-value assets in this category to land high-value assets in my areas of deficiency. And if I'm the GM, I regard BOTH Dozier and Plouffe as high-value assets that can be replaced adequately with existing assets, in this case Polanco and Sano. Sure, maybe Dozier is better than Polanco, but is he better than Polanco and whatever return we get for Dozier? BTW, I'm dangling Hicks and Rosario too, and pulling them both back unless the offer is stupid good. This requirement is magnified by the fact that we're a year away from knowing if Buxton and Kepler can step in and be more productive than Hicks and/or Rosario.

 

Again, it's all about the return. For the right return, I'll take the gamble that young prospects like Sano, Buxton, Polanco, and Kepler can replace what I'm trading away if my return is a pitcher better than Santana and/or a catcher a lot better than Kurt.

[mazeville]

I don't get the comments regarding, "It's all about return," or "I'm not sure you can get much for him." 

 

For one thing, you always try to generate as much return as you can get for a player.

 

For another, with a player like Plouffe, if other teams don't value his play as much as you do, you have to ask yourself whether you should keep playing the guy. 

 

Again, he is largely in his prime now. Plouffe is what he is, a low average, moderate power, good fielding third baseman. That should be worth something. But if you can't get much for him, then you have to wonder whether he's all you're saying he is.

 

It's not like it is with a young player like Arcia or Vargas, who couldn't fetch much now based on their performances last year. In those cases, you keep them if you can because they still have potential and are relatively cheap

 

But you know what you have in Plouffe. He's getting more expensive. And he's effectively blocking a much better option in Sano. 

 

Now, if the Twins' scouts don't think Sano can play third base long term, that's one thing. Then you sort of have to keep Plouffe because he's your only third baseman, a Mauer move not withstanding. But the Twins clearly think he can stick at third. He's been at that position (and improving, apparently) throughout his career in the minors.

 

Regardless, he should have some value to a team in need of a third baseman. Would he fetch a massive return? Probably not. Could you use him in a trade for a catcher like, say, Derek Norris? Perhaps. 

 

As several commenters have noted, this is what Terry Ryan specializes in. He'll get something for Plouffe. 

 

[DaveW]

The problem with plouffe is what contending teams actually need a third baseman? (Plouffe to a rebuilding team makes no sense)

 

Yankees

Orioles

blue Jays

Red Sox

Rays?

 

Nope.

 

Likely won't trade in the central.

 

Rangers

Astros

Angels

A's

Mariners

 

Nope

 

Dodgers maybe?

[nytwinsfan]

The Twins have six dozen baseball people down in Fort Myers right now for a week-long meeting at which they discuss every single player under contract in both the minors and on the 40-man. I hope some people raise their hands and point out that the Twins are going absolutely nowhere in the future without two things for certain: 1) a starting catcher who is markedly better, both defensively and offensively, than Suzuki, and 2) a starting pitcher who is better than either Hughes or Santana.

 

I'm hoping the strategy is to be more open to and active in the trade market this off-season, but I'm also hoping the trigger only gets pulled if the judgment is that someone else is going to overpay for what you have, at least a little. If I'm the GM, I trade from surplus only, and I dangle high-value assets in this category to land high-value assets in my areas of deficiency. And if I'm the GM, I regard BOTH Dozier and Plouffe as high-value assets that can be replaced adequately with existing assets, in this case Polanco and Sano. Sure, maybe Dozier is better than Polanco, but is he better than Polanco and whatever return we get for Dozier? BTW, I'm dangling Hicks and Rosario too, and pulling them both back unless the offer is stupid good. This requirement is magnified by the fact that we're a year away from knowing if Buxton and Kepler can step in and be more productive than Hicks and/or Rosario.

 

Again, it's all about the return. For the right return, I'll take the gamble that young prospects like Sano, Buxton, Polanco, and Kepler can replace what I'm trading away if my return is a pitcher better than Santana and/or a catcher a lot better than Kurt.

I'm on board, but I doubt Terry Ryan is. He is going to be reluctant enough to trade away one of his two guys with a "veteran presence"TM, let alone both of them.

[nytwinsfan]

The problem with plouffe is what contending teams actually need a third baseman? (Plouffe to a rebuilding team makes no sense)

Yankees

Orioles

blue Jays

Red Sox

Rays?

Nope.

Likely won't trade in the central.

Rangers

Astros

Angels

A's

Mariners

Nope

Dodgers maybe?

Padres, and they have some catchers.

[bird]

 

I'm on board, but I doubt Terry Ryan is. He is going to be reluctant enough to trade away one of his two guys with a "veteran presence"TM, let alone both of them.

 

 

Yeah, for sure, and to me, this is the true test on whether it's time for a GM change. This is the first time in a decade or so that the Twins actually have players worth trading for that happen to be part of a surplus at their position. I'm sure I'm missing one or two, but the last time I remember a high-value player at a surplus position being dangled in the off-season was AJ Pierzinski. Which is why I'm not entirely pessimistic about Ryan trading away a veteran presence. I'm more concerned about him trading a veteran presence in an area of NO surplus a la Span.

[sane]

Padres, and they have some catchers.

Padres 3B, Yangervis Solarte (.270BA/.320SLG/.748OPS/ 28 yrs-old

compared to Trevor Plouffe (.244BA/.435SLG/.742OPS/ 29 yrs-old

Why do they want Plouffe, again?

[gunnarthor]

With Sano playing Third Base in winter ball, I think the Twins are clearly thinking about moving Plouffe.

 

I would expect that the Twins are watching Sano and deciding whether or not he can play third. If he gets hurt or his hamstring tightens up, they won't risk it and Plouffe stays. If they think he can, they'll move Plouffe for a prospect or two. I do think Plouffe has some solid trade value and some good teams are looking for a guy at the hot corner.

[Rosterman]

But Plouffe is also an expensive arbitration player. A team has to look at the salary demands he will bring this and next season and wonder if a longterm contract is worthwhile. But on the flip side, he is too valuiable of a proerty to just allow to walk with hopes of signing him for less than his arbitration value. So the Twins, or another team, have to decide if he is a $25-30 million dollar player for the next three seasons.

 

Like Mientkiewicz and Pierzynski befroe him, Plouffe is blocking someone who is considered a better player cost to value, at least for the moment.

 

It is one of the evils of the baseball system, where a player doesn't quite live up to the cost of keeping them, which is why teams are looking more and more at doing contracts with players before they hit arbitration and hoping they still hold possible trade value (i.e. Span) before hitting their free agency years.

 

Do you want to commit $7+ million to Plouffe this season, a man without a position if all is well (and if Sano can't play third, can he play first and can we flipflop Mauer, which would be a logical choice). Do you look at 2017 when he could demand upwards of $10+ million dollars for his services, which have proven to be consistent, although he could suddenly have a Cuddyersque breakout season at age 30 that will launch him into untold riches for 5-6 years to come.

 

Again, love him or hate him, he paid his dues, worked hard, but is expendable. That doesn't make him valuable...as the Twins DO need to trade him, and that doesn't sit well for selling for high value. Unless someone has a third baeman go down in spring training.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Sano played shortstop as a kid. He can play third.

 

Even if Sano is a little sloppy at first, he will figure it out before long. Plouffe was a hack at third base when he first moved there.

[DJSim22]

Obviously, it depends what they can get for Plouffe.  It was well documented that the teams lining up for him may be small.

 

My biggest concern is actually at the plate.  Plouffe gives Sano a bit of protection, trading him leaves even less after Sano.  I suspect Sano would see more AB's where he doesn't get anything to hit.  I actually would consider moving Dozier to the 5 spot in this case.

[nytwinsfan]

Padres 3B, Yangervis Solarte (.270BA/.320SLG/.748OPS/ 28 yrs-oldcompared to Trevor Plouffe (.244BA/.435SLG/.742OPS/ 29 yrs-oldWhy do they want Plouffe, again?

Fair enough.