Season is not over

[Badsmerf]

I don't understand why everyone is assuming the twins are going belly up? The bullpen is bad, but luckily there are in house options to help out, They just aren't being taken advantage of.

 

The twins can pay 500 ball the rest of the way and be in the thick of it until the end. That is more than was expected this season and I'll be satisfied.

 

Why give up pieces that can help in the future for a shot with a roster that isn't ready to make a serious run? Next year these young guys will be better, Berrios will be in the rotation, Buxton the entire year (until he gets hurt), sano the entire year, hopefully an adequate catcher, off-season to retool the bullpen. So many bright spots so far and so many to look forward to.

 

I'm going to continue to watch games and root for victories. Which is a drastic change from rooting for the top draft position..... and a lot more fun.

[Craig Arko]

Agree 100%.

[Physics Guy]

Well said. The Twins threw up a clunker again last night. This does have a feel of similar circumstances when Ryan traded Luis Castillo away and the boys in the dugout were hoping for reinforcements. I'm hoping the vets can hold the young guys together and the team can finish strong. I'd like May to replace Millone in the rotation if he has another weak start. He is starting to look very hittable.

[bluechipper]

I like their chances if they replace Tommy Milone and Mike Pelfrey with Trevor May and either Tyler Duffey or Jose Berrios.

[SwainZag]

 

I like their chances if they replace Tommy Milone and Mike Pelfrey with Trevor May and either Tyler Duffey or Jose Berrios.

 

That AS game layoff did something to Milone.  Before the break he had 7 starts in a row of 2 or less ER allowed giving up 3HR total.  In 3 starts since he has given up 13 runs in 14.2 innings and allowed 6 long balls.  He has started 14 games this season and his last 3 have been 3 of his 4 worst of the year.

[bluechipper]

 

That AS game layoff did something to Milone.  Before the break he had 7 starts in a row of 2 or less ER allowed giving up 3HR total.  In 3 starts since he has given up 13 runs in 14.2 innings and allowed 6 long balls.  He has started 14 games this season and his last 3 have been 3 of his 4 worst of the year.

Yeah, I would probably give Milone a few more starts to see if he can regain his pre-AS form, but if Pelfrey is bad in his next start he needs to be replaced. 

[JB_Iowa]

Not saying the Twins will belly up but so many teams improved themselves and the Twins basically stopped in their tracks.

 

Nothing to say they will belly up but sure as check nothing to say they won't.

[Bark's Lounge]

It's nice to see an optimistic topic for a change.

 

Hell, it's baseball, crazy stuff happens. We all know this team is capable of playing some good baseball and riding a hot streak. They are also capable of doing the opposite, but screw that negativity for today.

 

It would be nice to get May back into the rotation, but if that doesn't happen put him in high leverage situations at the back end of the pen, he has the arm and stuff to be far superior to the other options other than Perkins.

 

I can't imagine it would hurt Berrios' development to call him up very, very, very soon. Throw him in the pen and see if he can bring the hot sauce. Obviously, this would only be a temporary move for this season and I imagine he is on a pitch limit this year and this might be a good way to wind his season down and give him some exposure at the big league level. In my mind it's worth a shot.

[TheLeviathan]

It's my opinion that the meme around that "remotely competitive=need to go all in" is really tired. This isn't the year to feel that itch, though they should always explore their options.

 

The problem, for me, is that I have no confidence in Ryan to do it even when that time comes. But many people are having trouble separating those two ideas from my estimation.

 

For now I'm happy to watch Rosario, Hicks, Sano, and others establish their major league cred in a playoff race for however long it lasts.

[DaveW]

It's my opinion that the meme around that "remotely competitive=need to go all in" is really tired. This isn't the year to feel that itch, though they should always explore their options.

 

The problem, for me, is that I have no confidence in Ryan to do it even when that time comes. But many people are having trouble separating those two ideas from my estimation.

 

For now I'm happy to watch Rosario, Hicks, Sano, and others establish their major league cred in a playoff race for however long it lasts.

nobody was suggesting the twins go all in. Most were suggesting doing Something beyond just overpaying for Jepsen though. At least pretend like you give a **** that you are currently leading the WC spot and just don't ignore the bullpen more or less and SS/C.

[DaveW]

With all that said I stil have faith, but is gonna take a few guys stepping up big time on the current roster and potentially one or two call ups to step up big as well.

 

My guesses/hopes would be: Mauer, Hughes, May, Hunter, berrios, Graham and Jepsen.

[TheLeviathan]

nobody was suggesting the twins go all in. Most were suggesting doing Something beyond just overpaying for Jepsen though. At least pretend like you give a **** that you are currently leading the WC spot and just don't ignore the bullpen more or less and SS/C.

See I think there was a very small group saying one good reliever and one solid one would be sufficient. (I belong in that group)

 

Though, I guess to be fair most people raging out about the Jays don't really know what the hell they really want other than some video game trading fantasy ala Toronto. This just wasn't the ideal time for that, though again in fairness, most of us were here during multiple playoff runs where there was an imperative to do much more than what got done. That's a huge source of a lot of this misplaced frustration.

[jimbo92107]

 

I like their chances if they replace Tommy Milone and Mike Pelfrey with Trevor May and either Tyler Duffey or Jose Berrios.

Exactly. The Twins should be looking at trades within their system this season. This is the beginning of a 3- to 5-year transition from a mediocre team to one that's competing for division titles for the next 8 to 10 years...if management is smart enough not to trade away all the farm depth for one year of contention. This was the year to really screw the future of this team. Fortunately, Terry Ryan only threw away one promising starting pitcher, Dr. Hu. He will be a great starter for the Rays about the time the Twins are finished with Jepsen, who probably will be no better than if the Twins brought up Berrios.

[USAFChief]

See I think there was a very small group saying one good reliever and one solid one would be sufficient. (I belong in that group)

Though, I guess to be fair most people raging out about the Jays don't really know what the hell they really want other than some video game trading fantasy ala Toronto. This just wasn't the ideal time for that, though again in fairness, most of us were here during multiple playoff runs where there was an imperative to do much more than what got done. That's a huge source of a lot of this misplaced frustration.

And/or do something that helps now, AND for the next couple years.

[jimmer]

 

And/or do something that helps now, AND for the next couple years.

that's not allowed unless it's the right time, whenever that unicorn of a time frame is.

[nicksaviking]

I'd rather watch a roster full of energetic sub 28 year olds than an aging mish-mash of declining vets.

[jimmer]

 

I'd rather watch a roster full of energetic sub 28 year olds than an aging mish-mash of declining vets.

Age line keeps getting younger and younger.  30, now 28. Pretty soon it will be 26.

 

I'm thinking about getting season tickets to my local team that plays in the Pioneer League :-)

[jokin]

 

See I think there was a very small group saying one good reliever and one solid one would be sufficient. (I belong in that group)

Though, I guess to be fair most people raging out about the Jays don't really know what the hell they really want other than some video game trading fantasy ala Toronto. This just wasn't the ideal time for that, though again in fairness, most of us were here during multiple playoff runs where there was an imperative to do much more than what got done. That's a huge source of a lot of this misplaced frustration.

 

Part of the source "of this misplaced frustration" is the fact that:

 

1) Ryan finally did go out and spend gobs of money (OK, Twins-like gobs of money) last offseason,

2) they did make some wholesale changes in managmement- which has resulted in a much-needed philosophical and cultural shift,

3) and most of the best prospects have arrived and have largely produced and in the process transformed the team's expectations.  

4) And of course, if the season ended today, they'd be in the playoffs!

 

To have accomplished all of this so far in 2015, and done nothing to make the team obviously better by deadline day is headscratchingly odd.  To add to the frustration, the Twins were linked by reliable sources, including one of those here at Twins Daily, that they were going after the right players who could have made a huge difference, and most importantly- with the right teams.  By that, I mean aggressive or clueless teams like San Diego and Colorado (why weren't there more rumors about a deal with Miami? with Philly? with Billy Beane?) .  Toronto absolutely stole Tulo from the Rockies, one of the best 5 players in baseball, and made nary a dent in their farm system, and with a 25-man roster with 6 ex-Twins castoffs (3 pitchers).  Their farm system has never been rated near the Twins. And a potential Twins trade with Colorado wasn't some video game fantasy, there was solidly-sourced buzz from multiple sources that the Twins were actively talking with the Rockies.  And the same with the Padres and James Shields and Upton, I doubt Jeremy Nygaard put his name on the line over nothing.

 

The only conclusions one can draw up are;

 

1) Ryan felt the asking price was too high and is unwilling or unable to steer the negotiations in another direction more to his liking,

2) The hit to payroll was prohibitve and nixed by ownership,

3) Or that, notwithstanding what the experts say, there evidently aren't enough "hot prospects" in the system that other teams are willing to buy lottery tickets on.  And this then is back on the Twins, particularly regarding the pitching development, some have called it bad luck, but how is it possible that virtually every one of their hard-throwing top-25 pitching prospects have fallen off the cliff (or are injured) in just one offseason? (Really, who thought that O'Rourke would be the only prospect-net-positive fWAR contributor to the pitching staff this year? [Graham and Tonkin are negative fWAR]).

 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

And/or do something that helps now, AND for the next couple years.

I'm fine with that and, as I said, they should have been in on Tulo. I just don't see them having the key piece (Reyes) that made that happen.

 

But a Price move? No. This isn't the year for that and there is little effort by some to distinguish these moves other than just rage pouting about "going for it" and magical years.

 

The beauty of the Shields deal was anticipation and patience. Now is the time for patience and this offseason is the time for aggression and anticipation. It's fair, however, to have serious doubts about Ryan doing the latter. I sure know I have them.

[TheLeviathan]

As for going for Upton or Lucroy or whomever, I don't see the failure to act as the problem per se. There is a decent shot every player like that the Twins called about May have started with "Berrios, Bux, or Sano or we hang up". To which I'd agree to hang up.

 

Tulo seems to be a special case of Rockies stupidity in wanting Reyes, a guy we have no equivalent for.

[jimmer]

 

I'm fine with that and, as I said, they should have been in on Tulo. I just don't see them having the key piece (Reyes) that made that happen.

But a Price move? No. This isn't the year for that and there is little effort by some to distinguish these moves other than just rage pouting about "going for it" and magical years.

The beauty of the Shields deal was anticipation and patience. Now is the time for patience and this offseason is the time for aggression and anticipation. It's fair, however, to have serious doubts about Ryan doing the latter. I sure know I have them.

Most of the supposed experts say that Colorado took Reyes only because they didn't want to send money with Tulo and Hawkins.  It was a salary dump Colorado had to eat.  Yes, they may get something else for him if/when they trade him, but that was a condition of Toronto, not a plus for Colorado.

[jimmer]

 

As for going for Upton or Lucroy or whomever, I don't see the failure to act as the problem per se. There is a decent shot every player like that the Twins called about May have started with "Berrios, Bux, or Sano or we hang up". To which I'd agree to hang up.

Tulo seems to be a special case of Rockies stupidity in wanting Reyes, a guy we have no equivalent for.

Were there any prospects ranked as high as those three in any of the trades?  One right?  For Price?Why would WE have to do that (especially for a guy like Upton and a guy slumping like Lucroy)?

[TheLeviathan]

Most of the supposed experts say that Colorado took Reyes only because they didn't want to send money with Tulo and Hawkins.  It was a salary dump Colorado had to eat.  Yes, they may get something else for him if/when they trade him, but that was a condition of Toronto, not a plus for Colorado.

Most people speculated a 3 way first, then him building value until the offseason, then a salary dump, etc.

 

That tells me no one can figure it out because it doesn't make sense. But, yes, we should have been in on it trying to beat it.

[TheLeviathan]

Were there any prospects ranked as high as those three in any of the trades? One right? For Price?Why would WE have to do that (especially for a guy like Upton and a guy slumping like Lucroy)?

If you were privy to the calls, please help us out. But it leaks all the time (see:Kimbrel for Goldschmidt) how absurd these negotiations usually are.

 

I'd tend to believe the team was likely asked for some painful packages to get what you think they should have done.

[jokin]

 

As for going for Upton or Lucroy or whomever, I don't see the failure to act as the problem per se. There is a decent shot every player like that the Twins called about May have started with "Berrios, Bux, or Sano or we hang up". To which I'd agree to hang up.

Tulo seems to be a special case of Rockies stupidity in wanting Reyes, a guy we have no equivalent for.

 

In which case, the onus is on Ryan to get whomever is calling not to hang up, but to listen to what Ryan can do for them.  The guy's been drafting in a top 6 slot- or better- for 4 seasons now, there should be a lot more shiny baubles to babble about than just the Big 3.

[TheLeviathan]

In which case, the onus is on Ryan to get whomever is calling not to hang up, but to listen to what Ryan can do for them. The guy's been drafting in a top 6 slot- or better- for 4 seasons now, there should be a lot more shiny baubles to babble about than just the Big 3.

I agree but that doesn't mean it happens and we tend to judge based only on results and not the effort. Which isn't fir to the process.

 

I'm not defending Ryan, but all you have to do is read those leaked Houston trade offers and have a taste of that bizarre world. That said, I will be very upset with Ryan if this offseason isn't aggressive, but I'm ok being patient right now.

[jokin]

 

If you were privy to the calls, please help us out. But it leaks all the time (see:Kimbrel for Goldschmidt) how absurd these negotiations usually are.

I'd tend to believe the team was likely asked for some painful packages to get what you think they should have done.

 

They probably always start out absurd, but hopefully a GM/Executive for 20+ years has certainly read a number of books like:

 

Go for No! Yes is the Destination, No is How You Get There ...

 

 

[jimmer]

When has Ryan ever gone for it at teh trade dealine? Are we saying from 2001-2007 it was never the right time to go for it?

 

No, we don't know what kind of effort he put in, but others put effort in and actually got stuff done. And in markets like ours with farm systems comparable or worse than ours

[jokin]

 

I agree but that doesn't mean it happens and we tend to judge based only on results and not the effort. Which isn't fir to the process.

I'm not defending Ryan, but all you have to do is read those leaked Houston trade offers and have a taste of that bizarre world. That said, I will be very upset with Ryan if this offseason isn't aggressive, but I'm ok being patient right now.

 

I guess I'm more resigned to being patient.  I didn't want them to foolishly disrupt the franchise, but with 29 teams to deal with, 29 different situations, and probably over $100 M coming in from the National TV deal, local broadcasting and revenue sharing, there had to be wiggle room to "overpay" in terms of money, without giving up the crown jewels.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Agree 100%.

I only agree 62.9%.