Is it time for a new GM?

[Mike Sixel]

No one is saying Smith can't be criticized...no one.

 

We are asking why everything is his fault, and nothing is Ryan's fault.....why trading your SP depth away for the former #3 overall prospect is bad, but trading all your CF depth away for nothing so far is "great process, bad result. Not his fault it didn't work".

[drjim]

 

No one is saying Smith can't be criticized...no one.

 

We are asking why everything is his fault, and nothing is Ryan's fault.....why trading your SP depth away for the former #3 overall prospect is bad, but trading all your CF depth away for nothing so far is "great process, bad result. Not his fault it didn't work".

 

Of course it is Ryan's fault it didn't work. They obviously traded for the wrong guy or didn't spread the risk enough by getting multiple pieces. His process was still better.

 

Your first sentence/paragraph doesn't come close to squaring with your first sentence in the second paragraph.

[DaveW]

 

The luster was off of Young by the time we acquired him. Unless they were evaluating him by raw RBI totals, which they may have been (see Rob Antony's interview, circa 2010).

 

Give me a break, the luster was off? He was 21 and freaking put up a rookie year good enough to come runner up in the voting. Twenty. One.

[drjim]

 

Give me a break, the luster was off? He was 21 and freaking put up a rookie year good enough to come runner up in the voting. Twenty. One.

 

With a 4% bb rate and an iso of barely over .100. And a mediocre (at best) defender in a corner.

 

Age aside, if the Twins went for a guy like this today they would get killed, and rightfully so.

 

I also think this was a prime example of how analytically the Rays were running circles around the Twins at the time.

 

EDIT: And I know "age aside" is a significant caveat, but he was already trending down, and a better understanding of prospects no would not be fooled as much by age relative to level.

[jimmer]

So the Mets, at home, were one out away from closing out a 7-5 game.  Rain and lighting hit hard.  Rain delay.  They come back to play and the Mets give up two hits and then a 3 run HR.

 

Back to our regularly scheduled futile debate

 

P.S.  Ryan is the best 

[jimmer]

 

 

 

Age aside, if the Twins went for a guy like this today they would get killed, and rightfully so.

 

 

Smith got killed anyway

 

And didn't you just JUST say in an earlier thread post that one of the main problems with the thinking behind trading for Delmon Young was that the team WASN'T in the middle of a rebuild?  

 

So, now, when we ARE in the middle of a rebuild, you are saying that trading for a former #1 pick and high prospect coming off a season where he finished 2nd in ROY voting WOULD be rightfully slammed?  No issues with the two conflicting  statements?

 

As a GM one has to consider age/room for growth from a guy that young. It can't be put aside. Similar to how age can't be put aside when signing a soon to be 40 year old trending way down on defense (defense which was another one of your slams against the Delmon trade).

[Vanimal46]

 

Garza, Bartlett for starters. He helped create a Tampa Bay powerhouse.

 

I just found this old TD gem that went over the Garza / Delmon trade

 

http://twinsdaily.com/articles.html/_/minnesota-twins-news/minnesota-twins/20-twins-trades-garza-and-bartlett-for-delmon-young-r1939

 

The Twins shouldn't get any credit for turning TB into a powerhouse. give all credit to their FO for selling high on Garza and obtaining all of those prospects.

[Mike Sixel]

Smith vs Ryan.....blah, blah, blah......

 

the question is, is Ryan the right guy to build this team, and then get the team over the hump?

 

Here are the assets he's added for the long term that I like:

Hughes

May

Ervin Santana

 

that's it, in 3+ years, since draft picks are about losing......and the head scout......

[drjim]

I just found this old TD gem that went over the Garza / Delmon trade

 

http://twinsdaily.com/articles.html/_/minnesota-twins-news/minnesota-twins/20-twins-trades-garza-and-bartlett-for-delmon-young-r1939

 

The Twins shouldn't get any credit for turning TB into a powerhouse. give all credit to their FO for selling high on Garza and obtaining all of those prospects.

The Rays went to the WS the year of the trade.

[drjim]

Smith got killed anyway

 

And didn't you just JUST say in an earlier thread post that one of the main problems with the thinking behind trading for Delmon Young was that the team WASN'T in the middle of a rebuild?

 

So, now, when we ARE in the middle of a rebuild, you are saying that trading for a former #1 pick and high prospect coming off a season where he finished 2nd in ROY voting WOULD be rightfully slammed? No issues with the two conflicting statements?

 

As a GM one has to consider age/room for growth from a guy that young. It can't be put aside. Similar to how age can't be put aside when signing a soon to be 40 year old trending way down on defense (defense which was another one of your slams against the Delmon trade).

I've read this multiple times and I'm not sure what contradictions you are talking about.

 

ROY voting is meaningless.

[Mike Sixel]

I notice other teams trading multiple prospects from the same position, for proven MLB players with more than 1 year left on their contract. They aren't waiting to see which ones are good/bad first.......should Ryan be doing that?

[spinowner]

 

So we can talk about the hole left in CF (and leadoff too) when Ryan traded Span which is just starting to get filled by Hicks and soon Buxton)?  Oh, I forget, that's okay because it was a rebuild move.

 

Our horrible defense these last few years, which affects the pitching, is squarely on Ryan with his trades, his acquisitions, and his re-signings.

I think the hole in CF formed with the Revere trade, not the Span trade. I think when Ryan traded Span he planned to have Revere be the placeholder in CF for a year or two until Hicks was ready, and later Buxton. But when the Phillies initiated the trade talks and agreed to overpay for Revere I think Ryan decided to accept since pitching was sorely needed at the time. I think he knew it would be a stretch to think that Hicks was ready offensively but you don't turn down a good deal, especially when your team is unlikely to go far for another couple years anyway.

[jimmer]

 

The Rays went to the WS the year of the trade.

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.

[jimmer]

 

I think the hole in CF formed with the Revere trade, not the Span trade. I think when Ryan traded Span he planned to have Revere be the placeholder in CF for a year or two until Hicks was ready, and later Buxton. But when the Phillies initiated the trade talks and agreed to overpay for Revere I think Ryan decided to accept since pitching was sorely needed at the time. I think he knew it would be a stretch to think that Hicks was ready offensively but you don't turn down a good deal, especially when your team is unlikely to go far for another couple years anyway.

Only if you believe Revere was a quality defender and a good OBP guy.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I have created a new award for this thread.

 

CONGRATULATIONS, "Is it time for a new GM?", you are the first winner of the official:

 

[jimmer]

 

I've read this multiple times and I'm not sure what contradictions you are talking about.

ROY voting is meaningless.

Because that describes Delmon.

 

Let me make it more simple.

 

You said that one of the main problems with the Delmon trade is that we weren't in the middle of a rebuild.  Later you said if the trade happened now, it would get slammed and rightfully so.  Yet, we are currently in the middle of a rebuild.

[rghrbek]

 

With a 4% bb rate and an iso of barely over .100. And a mediocre (at best) defender in a corner.

 

Age aside, if the Twins went for a guy like this today they would get killed, and rightfully so.

 

I also think this was a prime example of how analytically the Rays were running circles around the Twins at the time.

 

EDIT: And I know "age aside" is a significant caveat, but he was already trending down, and a better understanding of prospects no would not be fooled as much by age relative to level.

 

I got to say, the Twins were not looking at advanced stats like that back then, you are correct.   Shame on them, and yes TB was way ahead of the curve.   However, the twins were stuck in their old ways (2nd to last team in MLB to have a sabermatrician on their payroll), which was (and still kinda is) TR's way.   In addition, Terry was the one who gave the job to BS, a pencil pusher, in way over his head, not necessarily a b-ball guy.  He also left him holding the biggest trading chip in twins history (Santana), and the contract negotiations of one of the most popular Twins ever, in Hunter.  Not particularly wise.

 

In today's world we would savage that trade with all the information available.   Back then, a lot of us were simply using the information the Twins were.   This is all revisionist history.  I agree with Mike, the focus should be on how long of a leash does "Trading Terry" have?

[dxpavelka]

Sometimes the best trades are the ones that you don't make.  In  the end only one team will win the World Series.  A whole lot of teams will end up making moves that appear to make themselves better for the stretch run.  Most of them will NOT win the World Series and many of them will end up making the team on the OTHER end of the deal better for the future.  If the job was easy all of us who have nothing better to do than post on here would be doing it.

[DaveW]

 

Sometimes the best trades are the ones that you don't make. 

Nice try Terry Ryan....

[USAFChief]

 

Sometimes the best trades are the ones that you don't make.  

That's a difficult theory to prove.

[DaveW]

 

Sometimes the best trades are the ones that you don't make.

 

 

That's a difficult theory to prove.

"NOW YOU TELL ME!"- Mike Kekich

[Kwak]

 

I generally think decisions made by Smith can be considered his fault. Do you suggest a different standard?

IF they were Smith's decisions--and generally they weren't.  Smith wasn't a talent evaluator--he was an organization (yes man) guy.  Ramos for Capps--Gardenhire's endless complaining about the need for a closer.

Trade Hardy--Gardenhire again with help from Personnel.  Nishioka--Personnel. Smith probably rubbed people the wrong way (maybe knifed some too) because no other person has been flamed like he has--yet Smith really wasn't in charge.  Remember Ryan didn't run off to the beach or the mountains--he stayed on in an unspecified role.  Normally when executives "step down"--they are GONE!!  But Ryan wasn't--he stayed.  So, who was making the decisions on a franchise known for "collectivism"--unlikely Smith had a Napoleanic position.

[drjim]

Because that describes Delmon.

 

Let me make it more simple.

 

You said that one of the main problems with the Delmon trade is that we weren't in the middle of a rebuild. Later you said if the trade happened now, it would get slammed and rightfully so. Yet, we are currently in the middle of a rebuild.

You're combining two separate points I was making.

 

The hole created by the Span trade was less egregious than hole created by Delmon trade because of the point in the team's cycle.

 

The Delmon trade was bad because of who he was as a player.

[drjim]

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.

Really? You don't think the increases value gained by spinning Delmon and Harris into Bartlett and Garza had anything to do with the Rays making the world series that year?

 

Obviously not sole reason but definitely a part of it.

[Dantes929]

 

 

Twins would be 6-5 instead of 3-8 after the break if Perkins had pitched as well since the AS game as he did before it..   That is not on Ryan.    May has been used sparingly  in the pen but is probably the best arm and option out there.    Gardy would have used him more.  Just saying.         I have said it before but the All Star break in itself is a momentum stopper.   It has helped us in the past by getting 4 days off and essentially getting a reboot when guys are struggling and also as is the case this year, come at exactly the wrong time while riding a stretch of good baseball and bringing it to a screeching halt.   Its a shame but none of this is anything a good week can't cure

[Dantes929]

 

17 years as GM. Over 100 games under 500 with one playoff series win and that was 13 years ago. 6 playoff games won in 17 years and the last one 11 years ago. Time has passed him by. Please retire and don't give the job to Antony.

I don't know if he ha done good job or not but I have agreed with much of what he has done and with little of what Smith did.    Playoffs are a crapshoot  and several of those games were blown by our highest paid and one of the highest regarded closers in the game.    so I will just say that 6 division titles in 17 years with 5 other teams fighting for it is actually a pretty good result..    

[notoriousgod71]

 

This is a different world than those 17 years. Half that time was spent cleaning up the messes of other GMs and the rest was spent being hamstrung by low revenue/cheap owner.

He is on a different standard now.

 

 

I don't think I've ever heard a singular excuse cover 17 seasons. Impressive job, my friend!

[DaveW]

 

I don't think I've ever heard a singular excuse cover 17 seasons. Impressive job, my friend!

"He's adopted" is one my parents have used for me for a couple decades now.

[drjim]

I don't think I've ever heard a singular excuse cover 17 seasons. Impressive job, my friend!

In my defense it was two excuses.

[howeda7]

Taken directly from Terry Ryan's July 31 press conference notes circa 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2015. (It's impolite not to cite your source)

Sometimes the best trades are the ones that you don't make.  In  the end only one team will win the World Series.  A whole lot of teams will end up making moves that appear to make themselves better for the stretch run.  Most of them will NOT win the World Series and many of them will end up making the team on the OTHER end of the deal better for the future.