Is it time to worry about Kyle Gibson?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I combed that page...how the hell did I miss that? Yeesh...thanks guys, very helpful.

I didn't see it either. Only found it after a cmd+f.

[shs_59]

I'm not worried at all, going into next year

 

Its clear the top 3 guys in some order are:

 

Phil Hughes

Ervin Santana

and Kyle Gibson

 

with hopefully either a dominate innings eater in Millone or the youngster in Berrios and or Duffey

 

rounding it out.

[drjim]

I'm not worried at all, going into next year

 

Its clear the top 3 guys in some order are:

 

Phil Hughes

Ervin Santana

and Kyle Gibson

 

with hopefully either a dominate innings eater in Millone or the youngster in Berrios and or Duffey

 

rounding it out.

May and Nolasco will round it out to start the season.

 

I'm already chuckling thinking of the response on the board when Nolasco is in the rotation to start the season and a dominating Berrios is sent back down.

[jimmer]

May BETTER be in the rotation to start next season.  He SHOULD be there now.

[drjim]

 

May BETTER be in the rotation to start next season.  He SHOULD be there now.

 

I agree he should be and barring injury he will be over current alternatives in the organization. That said I could imagine a scenario where they sign a Santana-like free agent and keep him in the pen but that is unlikely unless they can swap out Nolasco.

[DaveW]

Gibson has now given up 5+ ER in 4 of his last 6 starts, consistency seems to be a real issue again.

[curt1965]

He nibbles too much, Dave. Throw the damn ball over the plate! I think he was at 90 pitches or so in the 4th!

[Dantes929]

 

He nibbles too much, Dave. Throw the damn ball over the plate! I think he was at 90 pitches or so in the 4th!

And the walks killed him.   He is an ace when he throws it where he wants because he has good stuff that moves but you can see he misses the glove often and when missing up in the middle most people get hit.    He just lost his command.    Rosario helped him out but Plouffe's error could have been a double play that would have got them out of the inning.     . 

[Ncgo4]

Not trying to be a smart a**, but isn't it time to worry about the entire pitching staff? With all the money spent by our GM, we don't have a single SP that raises any particular fear in the hearts of any opponent. Similarly with relievers. While Perkins was a deserving All Star, since the A-S break he's been terrible.

 

In the minors, other than Barrios, we have some nice pitchers, but no one that's a potential top of the order "Ace". This seems a little( strange given that we have great hitting prospects everywhere we look. It certainly suggests that our evaluation and/or development process on the pitching side is wanting.

[jimmer]

 

Not trying to be a smart a**, but isn't it time to worry about the entire pitching staff? 

I'm surprised anyone actually stopped worrying about our pitching staff.

 

As far as Gibson himself goes, he's not close to being an ace and will never be one. He doesn't have the stuff. He is what he is at this point.  His ceiling is a #3 type pitcher but he's more likely going to settle in as a #4 type pitcher on a poor pitching staff.

[70charger]

So what's the deal with dead arm? I know people were talking about this being an issue for Hughes. Is Gibson running into the same problem?

[jimmer]

 

Gibson has now given up 5+ ER in 4 of his last 6 starts, consistency seems to be a real issue again.

consistency or talent.

[Platoon]

Gibson has now given up 5+ ER in 4 of his last 6 starts, consistency seems to be a real issue again.

That seems pretty consistent to me!

[twinsnorth49]

 

He nibbles too much, Dave. Throw the damn ball over the plate! I think he was at 90 pitches or so in the 4th!

This, I mentioned this last night early in the game thread. He looks like the Gibson we first saw when he came up, trying to paint the corners on every pitch almost in fear of getting rocked. His counts last night were brutal, his changeup and slider are useless when he can't get his fastball over.

 

Although that 0-2 count on McCann didn't help him much either.

[BHtwins]

2 things on last night and actually his last two starts.

 

I thought he got squeezed last night a little bit.  If the ump gives him 2 or 3 of those borderline away calls I think it makes all the difference in the world in how the game ends up.

 

Also, Suzuki does him no favors at all.  He doesn't frame well.  A great catcher gets a couple of those calls for his pitcher.   I also question all the away away away pitches against lefties who are damn near standing on the plate.  You make a mistake and they crush them.

[nicksaviking]

 

He nibbles too much, Dave. Throw the damn ball over the plate! I think he was at 90 pitches or so in the 4th!

 

I can't speak for other nights, but his opponent probably had a lot to do with this.  The Yankees are a flyball team and are among the leaders in lowest GB%; with their ballpark, this is obviously by design.  Gibson's sinker likely will have little impact on these uppercut swings. 

 

Still, it's best to go after them instead of nibbling and loading the bases with free passes.  Another sinkerballer, Pelfrey is going tonight, could be more of the same.

 

A team full of veterans who will foul a half dozen pitches off if you can't make them swing and miss really highlights the problems your club faces when you can't strike batters out.

[DaveW]

 

A team full of veterans who will foul a half dozen pitches off if you can't make them swing and miss really highlights the problems your club faces when you can't strike batters out.

That is a really great point. I don't think the Yankees a particularly "good" team this year, and the lineup isn't as scary as it used to be, not even by a long shot. But you are right, all of those veterans are savvy enough etc not to be fooled by pitchers like Gibson.

[DaveW]

 

 

 

 

I thought he got squeezed last night a little bit.  If the ump gives him 2 or 3 of those borderline away calls I think it makes all the difference in the world in how the game ends up.

 

 

While that might be true, you could probably say that about every game where a pitcher has struggled. The "zone" had nothing to do with him plating a 0-2 pitch for McCann to go yard with. That is just such a stupid mistake, and Gibson seems like a smart pitcher which makes it so much more frustrating. If he gives up 5 runs off a bunch of singles and such, I don't have a big problem with it. But those 5 runs came from bad pitching: 0-2 Home Run, a couple walks, a lot of hard hit balls in hitters counts etc

[Seth Stohs]

 

2 things on last night and actually his last two starts.

 

I thought he got squeezed last night a little bit.  If the ump gives him 2 or 3 of those borderline away calls I think it makes all the difference in the world in how the game ends up.

 

Also, Suzuki does him no favors at all.  He doesn't frame well.  A great catcher gets a couple of those calls for his pitcher.   I also question all the away away away pitches against lefties who are damn near standing on the plate.  You make a mistake and they crush them.

 

This is why I hate the pitch framing stat. Watching Suzuki, he is framing the ball. He's being subtle. He sits quietly. He's holding out the glove appropriately. The ump just called a ball a ball. I didn't see anything that tells me he didn't pitch frame well. 

[DaveW]

Suzuki certainly has his faults, but I think he "frames" pitches ok and generally calls a good game. His inability to throw anyone out on the other hand...

[jimmer]

 

That is a really great point. I don't think the Yankees a particularly "good" team this year, and the lineup isn't as scary as it used to be, not even by a long shot. But you are right, all of those veterans are savvy enough etc not to be fooled by pitchers like Gibson.

Yankees are in first place right now in a division that has 4 teams at .500 or better and would have three of the five AL teams in the playoffs if the playoffs started today.  They are 2nd in runs scored in the majors (30 more than #3).  They are a good team.  They just aren't a great team.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

That is a really great point. I don't think the Yankees a particularly "good" team this year, and the lineup isn't as scary as it used to be, not even by a long shot. But you are right, all of those veterans are savvy enough etc not to be fooled by pitchers like Gibson.

The Yankees are built to frustrate and intimidate opposing pitchers, particularly in Yankee Stadium.

 

The Twins should have won last night. They outhit (by a lot) and outpitched (by a bit) the Yankees for the first seven innings of the game... But that ****ing ballpark killed the Twins again.

 

It was a horribly sequenced game for the Twins, which will happen from time to time. For most of the game, the Yankees had more runs than hits.

 

Did I mention how much I hate that ****ing ballpark?

[jharaldson]

 

And let's not forget the bullpen's contribution to Kyle's stat line. In his past two starts, Gibson has been credited with five (!) runs that scored after he left the game. Given that it's impossible to be credited with more than six runs after leaving two games, that's... wow. It's just wow.

 

Has he been good his past two starts? No, but I doubt we're gnashing our teeth over his performances if the bullpen didn't allow every inherited runner on base to score after Kyle left the game.

 

I was trying to validate this stat and I am having trouble doing so.  Here are the last 3 starts for Gibson:

 

8/17 - Yankees

In the 6th inning Gibson walked Teixeira.  Duensing takes over and allows Teixeira to score on a Beltran Home Run.  Total of 1 inherited run scored.

http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=350817110

 

8/11 - Rangers

Gibson is relieved at the top of the 7th inning.  No inherited runs scored.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=350811109

 

8/6 - Blue Jays

In the 5th Gibson is getting rocked and leaves the game with runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs.  O'Rourke comes in and strikes out Goins saving Gibson.  No inherited runs scored.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=350806114

 

I am only coming up with 1 inherited run scored in the last 3 games with 2 inherited runners not scoring.  Am I missing something or are you referring to a different time period because this doesn't look like the bullpen failing Gibson, it looks like Gibson just failing.

[DaveW]

 

The Yankees are built to frustrate and intimidate opposing pitchers, particularly in Yankee Stadium.

 

The Twins should have won last night. They outhit (by a lot) and outpitched (by a bit) the Yankees for the first seven innings of the game... But that ****ing ballpark killed the Twins again.

 

It was a horribly sequenced game for the Twins, which will happen from time to time. For most of the game, the Yankees had more runs than hits.

 

Did I mention how much I hate that ****ing ballpark?

Hard to blame that game on the ballpark when Hicks and Plouffe both benefited from it as well...

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I was trying to validate this stat and I am having trouble doing so.  Here are the last 3 starts for Gibson:

 

8/17 - Yankees

In the 6th inning Gibson walked Teixeira.  Duensing takes over and allows Teixeira to score on a Beltran Home Run.  Total of 1 inherited run scored.

http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=350817110

 

8/11 - Rangers

Gibson is relieved at the top of the 7th inning.  No inherited runs scored.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=350811109

 

8/6 - Blue Jays

In the 5th Gibson is getting rocked and leaves the game with runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs.  O'Rourke comes in and strikes out Goins saving Gibson.  No inherited runs scored.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=350806114

 

I am only coming up with 1 inherited run scored in the last 3 games with 2 inherited runners not scoring.  Am I missing something or are you referring to a different time period because this doesn't look like the bullpen failing Gibson, it looks like Gibson just failing.

I posted that on July 27th.

[jharaldson]

 

I posted that on July 27th.

 

D'oh, I thought the thread was new and forgot to look at the date.  Thanks!

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Hard to blame that game on the ballpark when Hicks and Plouffe both benefited from it as well...

Oh, sure... but the Yankees are built to do exactly what they did last night and that joke of a park allows them to thrive doing it.

 

Foul off pitches until you draw a walk.

 

Maybe hit a single. Or not, walking works, too.

 

Hit a home run.

 

Repeat.

 

I hate bandbox stadiums. I think they're an insult to the game. Add in how much I despise the Yankees and the entire situation creates a vortex of hate within me.

[DaveW]

 

Oh, sure... but the Yankees are built to do exactly what they did last night and that joke of a park allows them to thrive doing it.

 

Foul off pitches until you draw a walk.

 

Maybe hit a single. Or not, walking works, too.

 

Hit a home run.

 

Repeat.

 

I hate bandbox stadiums. I think they're an insult to the game. Add in how much I despise the Yankees and the entire situation creates a vortex of hate within me.

Dude the stadium isn't as ridiculous as you make it out to be. It has a 99 Park Factor for hitters (multi year) and a 101 Park factor for hitters this year. (Barely favors hitters). Target Field as a comparison has a 103 park factor for hitters.

 

It's not like the Yankees have a ton of guys hitting 30 HR, they have 3 guys hitting 20 or more.

 

Is it easier to hit a home run their versus Target Field? Sure. But not by as much as you are making it out to be. The Yankees hit plenty of Home Runs at Target Field as well and spanked the Twins. Don't blame it on the park, blame it on the players/manager/GM for the incompetence against the Yanks this year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

This is why I hate the pitch framing stat. Watching Suzuki, he is framing the ball. He's being subtle. He sits quietly. He's holding out the glove appropriately. The ump just called a ball a ball. I didn't see anything that tells me he didn't pitch frame well. 

Do you actually know "the pitch framing stat" debited Suzuki on that, or are you just assuming that so you can justify your preexisting hatred?

 

If those pitches were balls for 90% of pitchers/catchers/umpires, the pitch framing stat isn't going to blame Suzuki much for it.

[jimbo92107]

Boy, was Clayton Kershaw pitching like crap for a while in the first half. We should have offered a straight up trade, him for Arcia.

 

/snarktacularcagematchcomeseeitatthebuffalorama!