2016 Election Thread

[drjim]

 

Can I ask you this, and it seemingly applies to, like, all of you (and me):

 

Is it even remotely sane for intelligent people to have not formed and developed a robust 3rd and 4th party that serves to actually have a viable, human-based debate of actual relevant issues? I would think these would be akin to the Green party (I still stand by my Nader-LaDuke activities in 2000 as a 19-year-old . . . ) and the Libertarian party, but clearly not them specifically.

 

If these alternatives are not actually available for whatever reason, then isn't the rational alternative to our current system the smashing of that system?

 

Seems pointless at the moment. There really isn't any elected office of prominence where a 3rd party could make consistent inroads.

 

Sadly the better move is to work within the party infrastructure for change that is meaningful. The parties are, at their core, constantly changing coalitions. Work to make a voice heard.

 

Many of us might not like the agenda of the conservative wing that is currently dominating the Republican party, but they work like hell in every election across the country, consistently vote, and bend the party to their agenda. 30, 40 years ago they used to sit around and complain, then decided to actually put in the work to do something about it.

[drjim]

My take on the Syrian refugees is that the current situation is more of a temporary situation caused by an (understandably) emotional reaction to a terrible attack. With time and (hopefully) confidence in the vetting process refugees will again be welcomed into the country.

 

And like many things, the backlash against refugees probably has little to do with the refugees themselves and more about frustration/anger with Obama about lack of progress against ISIS and probably even some bad feelings about immigration as well.

[drjim]

One other thing to add:

 

Here is a link on some analysis on the political situation in Kentucky: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/11/whats-matter-kentucky

 

I can take or leave Drum specifically, but he does link to some other articles which is why I linked this article.

 

I remember after the Kentucky governor election how people had no problem ripping the voters for voting against their interests. What a comically bad interpretation of that election (personal thoughts about the governor aside). The situation is that people who are benefiting from expanded Obamacare or increased welfare (food stamp, disability, etc) benefits are likely not voting, and the people who are voting are their neighbors who work hard, pay taxes, are still struggling financially, and see other people get all kinds of money (out of their taxes) for doing nothing, and they are voting Republican.

 

This is why Democrats are getting crushed all over the country. It really has very little to do with the things that most people spend most of their time debating, here and elsewhere in the media.

[Mike Sixel]

 

One other thing to add:

 

Here is a link on some analysis on the political situation in Kentucky: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/11/whats-matter-kentucky

 

I can take or leave Drum specifically, but he does link to some other articles which is why I linked this article.

 

I remember after the Kentucky governor election how people had no problem ripping the voters for voting against their interests. What a comically bad interpretation of that election (personal thoughts about the governor aside). The situation is that people who are benefiting from expanded Obamacare or increased welfare (food stamp, disability, etc) benefits are likely not voting, and the people who are voting are their neighbors who work hard, pay taxes, are still struggling financially, and see other people get all kinds of money (out of their taxes) for doing nothing, and they are voting Republican.

 

This is why Democrats are getting crushed all over the country. It really has very little to do with the things that most people spend most of their time debating, here and elsewhere in the media.

 

so much wrong with this post....as if most people getting government assistance aren't working, for example. 

[drjim]

 

so much wrong with this post....as if most people getting government assistance aren't working, for example. 

 

What is true and what people think/experience are not often the same thing.

 

People can state things that are factually true and then in response people can look around, have enough anecdotal stories in their head, and vote accordingly.

 

The old adage for elections are that voters are never wrong, and even when they are wrong they aren't.

[Mike Sixel]

 

What is true and what people think/experience are not often the same thing.

 

People can state things that are factually true and then in response people can look around, have enough anecdotal stories in their head, and vote accordingly.

 

The old adage for elections are that voters are never wrong, and even when they are wrong they aren't.

 

got it, I thought you were stating a fact, not stating what people think/observe. Apologies.

[TheLeviathan]

I think, at least in part, the perception that the reliance on the safety net is growing has truth to it.  The problem, however, is not the people but the structure of our safety net.

 

It doesn't accomplish what we want it to and, sometimes, encourages people to have to tight-rope a weird balance between not working too much to lose benefits and working too little to avoid losing money against the bottom line.

 

Most welfare and assistance in this country needs a thorough reworking.  And the best part is that it'd better help people and probably be a helluva lot more efficient at the same time. 

[drjim]

 

I think, at least in part, the perception that the reliance on the safety net is growing has truth to it.  The problem, however, is not the people but the structure of our safety net.

 

It doesn't accomplish what we want it to and, sometimes, encourages people to have to tight-rope a weird balance between not working too much to lose benefits and working too little to avoid losing money against the bottom line.

 

Most welfare and assistance in this country needs a thorough reworking.  And the best part is that it'd better help people and probably be a helluva lot more efficient at the same time. 

 

No question. Way too many perverse incentives in the structure.

 

And similar to complaints about the economy, much easier to point out the problems and blame others than to propose solutions. But when one party offers neither solutions nor a credible critique, seems pretty apparent which way voters will go.

[stringer bell]

 

On the contrary, school/church/theater shootings are quite calculated also.


EDIT: though I think you were referring to the everyday gun violence Dave was talking about. Sorry about that, Chief.
I think I need to step out of this conversation for my sanity.

Missed it by that much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't resist when I read "sorry about that Chief".

[Badsmerf]

One other thing to add:

 

Here is a link on some analysis on the political situation in Kentucky: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/11/whats-matter-kentucky

 

I can take or leave Drum specifically, but he does link to some other articles which is why I linked this article.

 

I remember after the Kentucky governor election how people had no problem ripping the voters for voting against their interests. What a comically bad interpretation of that election (personal thoughts about the governor aside). The situation is that people who are benefiting from expanded Obamacare or increased welfare (food stamp, disability, etc) benefits are likely not voting, and the people who are voting are their neighbors who work hard, pay taxes, are still struggling financially, and see other people get all kinds of money (out of their taxes) for doing nothing, and they are voting Republican.

 

This is why Democrats are getting crushed all over the country. It really has very little to do with the things that most people spend most of their time debating, here and elsewhere in the media.

These states have terrible voter turnout. What is wrong here is the better question. Republicans have a solid voting base, always have. This article also fails to mention it being a part of the evangelical south.

 

The US has its own problems, without invading Syria. Places like this have problems. It's funny, in the article it says these areas have become red over the past few decades. Why aren't the conditions improving? They are getting worse.

 

If there is one thing this article proves, is that the meme of a neighbor sitting at home collecting checks is what the Democrats want. I'm no liberal, and believe we shouldn't be afraid to ask things out of the people receiving benefits. However, I really hate how this article portrays people on assistance. I know there is a percentage that are complacent enough and have no motivation to improve. However, how many of those people have no way to improve and have no reason to work a sorry ass minimum wage job to just pay rent each month? Seriously, when I had to get a job at Wallgreens after college to get by it felt like the biggest waste of my time, and it was over minimum wage.

 

Places like that are where isis has targeted in the middle east. When the economy is based on something besides coal I believe lives will be improved. All there is to it. Need something to feed the economy.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I have to admit I'm more than a little bit terrified of America right now. The latest from Trump:

 

“Would I approve waterboarding? You bet your ass I would — in a heartbeat…And I would approve more than that. Don’t kid yourself, folks. It works, okay? It works. Only a stupid person would say it doesn’t work….Believe me, it works. And you know what? If it doesn’t work, they deserve it anyway, for what they’re doing. It works.”

 

Holy ****, America. What has happened to you?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/11/23/donald-trump-on-waterboarding-if-it-doesnt-work-they-deserve-it-anyway/?tid=pm_politics_pop_b

[Mike Sixel]

 

I have to admit I'm more than a little bit terrified of America right now. The latest from Trump:

 

“Would I approve waterboarding? You bet your ass I would — in a heartbeat…And I would approve more than that. Don’t kid yourself, folks. It works, okay? It works. Only a stupid person would say it doesn’t work….Believe me, it works. And you know what? If it doesn’t work, they deserve it anyway, for what they’re doing. It works.”

 

Holy ****, America. What has happened to you?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/11/23/donald-trump-on-waterboarding-if-it-doesnt-work-they-deserve-it-anyway/?tid=pm_politics_pop_b

 

we are neither brave, nor free, frankly. At least, some people are willing to give up freedom and right, because they are afraid.

[diehardtwinsfan]

yeah, waterboarding/torture works in that you can get the recipient to say whatever it is you want them to say.  Killed Santa?  Check.  Raped the Easter Bunny?  Check.  Involved in terror plot?  Check.  Is it true?  Who knows, but they'll admit to anything to make the pain stop. 

 

But let's not kid ourselves, this problem falls on both sides of the aisle, both of which need to be evicted from American politics. 

[TheLeviathan]

I only hope that Trump is ending his own campaign with this stuff.  Hopefully the Republican field starts to hold him accountable for this stupidity in debates.

 

They started to last time, but it's time to put that sideshow to bed.

[stringer bell]

Will it take electing a Trump and the resultant turmoil for smart people to realize that the parties have to work together and work for the common good? The USA is as polarized as it has been in my lifetime, IMHO, and it might take extremes to make people realize that the jokers with the power aren't doing them any good.

[biggentleben]

 

Will it take electing a Trump and the resultant turmoil for smart people to realize that the parties have to work together and work for the common good? The USA is as polarized as it has been in my lifetime, IMHO, and it might take extremes to make people realize that the jokers with the power aren't doing them any good.

 

Did it make a difference in Minnesota with Ventura?

[drjim]

Did it make a difference in Minnesota with Ventura?

Way different scenario. Ventura was an egomaniac but empowered competent people and pursued reasonable policies.

 

I don't see that with Trump.

 

That said, I really want him to run as a third party candidate. For all his craziness he raises issues that some percent of the country finds attractive and will force the R and D out their comfort zones and hopefully lead to meaningful debate.

[Squirrel]

 

That said, I really want him to run as a third party candidate. For all his craziness he raises issues that some percent of the country finds attractive and will force the R and D out their comfort zones and hopefully lead to meaningful debate.

 

I think this would be a HORRIBLE idea. I'd rather see a truly LEGITIMATE AND COMPETENT 3rd party candidate, who challenges because he/she has something real and different to offer other than the 2-party, partisan status quo, and not one just with populist appeal from the fearful and stupid. Sorry, but that's where Trump's appeal lies. And, frankly, Trump would siphon off more from the Republican side anyway; it wouldn't really be a 3rd party, just a disgruntled candidate who didn't get his party's endorsement.

[DaveW]

I would love to see Trump run independent for the Lulz alone, it would make the debates a helluva lot more entertaining for sure.

[Hrbowski]

I would hate Trump even more if he runs as an independent.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Jesse also held elected office (was mayor of a Twin Cities suburb) before campaigning for governor. However wacko and insane he turned out, he did mean well, and kind of followed the process.

 

Trump's just a xenophobic loudmouth doing this for his own amusement, IMO. 

[Mike Sixel]

Jesse brought in good people, who knew how to run a government, from both sides of the aisle. It really isn't a good comparison, imo.

[ashbury]

The USA is as polarized as it has been in my lifetime, IMHO

This election season is still young, but 1968 is a pretty high bar to exceed.

 

We'll have to consult with Chief if we want insights on 1860. As you said, *your* lifetime.

[DaveW]

It's funny because he is old!

[DaveW]

Jesse brought in good people, who knew how to run a government, from both sides of the aisle. It really isn't a good comparison, imo.

Yeah I always thought people liked Jesse, for at least the first few years at least.

[Craig Arko]

I've already mentioned Tyson-Nye as my preferred ticket. A close second would be Stewart-Colbert.

[ashbury]

It's funny because he is old!

As is the meme, I suppose.

 A close second would be Stewart-Colbert.

Swap the order on that one, please.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Today's headline:

 

Trump mulls debate boycott unless CNN donates $5M

 

 

Or.........

......the moment we find out if CNN will negotiate with terrorists. 

 

 

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/pipu1m.gif

 

[Mike Sixel]

Wow. Just. Wow. If they pay him, I'll never watch CNN again. I'll move to a new place in the airport if it comes on. I'll do what it takes.

[Squirrel]

Wow. Just. Wow. If they pay him, I'll never watch CNN again. I'll move to a new place in the airport if it comes on. I'll do what it takes.

I stopped watching CNN awhile ago.