Nunez Activated, Vargas Optioned

[jokin]

 

There isn't going to be a better time in the schedule to send him to AAA.

 

Are we sure about this?

 

How about when all hands are 100% available and healthy, and in conjunction with this...

 

How about when they come to their senses and realize that Bernier isn't a viable option as the 25th man?

 

Boston and Toronto are scuffling, after this coming week, the next 10 games are with those two clubs.... how about holding off until a week from Monday with this move?

[jokin]

 

 

It's quite apparent that this will be a short lived demotion. Vargas needs to play, he'll be back in 2-3 weeks. If he was not a DH/1B (emphasis on DH), this would not have happened. I will say, that I am not a huge fan of the move, but maybe the Twins want to get Arcia back in the fold as a DH and see what they have in Rosario for a few weeks more. The outfield D has looked a lot better with Rosie and Hicks.

 

This still doesn't account for why Bernier is the best choice to hold the spot until Arcia is ready.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

This still doesn't account for why Bernier is the best choice to hold the spot until Arcia is ready.

No you are absolutely correct. I was so caught up in the other material, that I totally forgot about Bernier. He does not belong on the big club, nor does he add anything of value. I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but meh.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Are these stats meaningless?

Bernier, age 35, career MiLB OPS: .674

Vargas, age 24, career MiLB OPS: .854

I ask again...what purpose does Bernier serve on the Twins? What does he bring to the roster that isn't already there?

Maybe this has been answered to your satisfaction.  Bernier provides the benefit of not playing him and not hurting his development.  When weighing the developmental effects of not playing Vargas much against NL teams and playing him part time against AL teams against the value Vargas provides as pinch hitter and part time player, I think it's easy to identify the Twins thinking even if you don't agree with it.  I imagine Escobar's failure to provide adequate OF defense while still hitting, combined with Rosario's penchant for outfield defense (given the competition), and combined with the inevitability of Arcia's return all weighed in favor of getting Vargas AAA at at bats (of which he's had none).

[KGB]

 

that was my silver lining. Maybe Hunter and Arcia will DH leaving Rosario, Hicks, andRobinson/Escobar the majority of outfielding

I agree that this is probably the plan, since Vargas has not been seeing much action lately.  Don't have a problem with this in the short term, but they really need to figure out and trade some of the DH/1B options.  Too many of the same type of players and no place to play them. 

[spinowner]

 

The goal is...to get to the postseason, and to win the WS.

This is the part on which we concur. Strongly. But I will add to that. The goal is to do that as often as possible. As good as this year's W-L record is on May 18, most reasonable people still peg the Twins as a very, very long shot to win the WS this year. By making prospect development the primary goal in 2015 we are increasing the likelihood of more frequent opportunities to contend in the future. Psychologists refer to this as delayed gratification. Sacrifice now for more and better opportunities in the future.

[USAFChief]

Maybe this has been answered to your satisfaction.  Bernier provides the benefit of not playing him and not hurting his development.  When weighing the developmental effects of not playing Vargas much against NL teams and playing him part time against AL teams against the value Vargas provides as pinch hitter and part time player, I think it's easy to identify the Twins thinking even if you don't agree with it.  I imagine Escobar's failure to provide adequate OF defense while still hitting, combined with Rosario's penchant for outfield defense (given the competition), and combined with the inevitability of Arcia's return all weighed in favor of getting Vargas AAA at at bats (of which he's had none).

I see "the benefit of not playing him" as a practical matter...the Twins are once again playing with a 24 man roster instead of 25. Whether that's because they wait around for a week with an injury, or to carry someone who won't play is pretty much the same thing.

 

If they want to send down Vargas once Arcia returns, wait till then. For now let Rosario play OF, and Escobar be the utility infielder. Vargas will get enough ABs, or he shouldn't have made the team out of spring training.

[Platoon]

Non concur. Strongly.

The team's W-L record is the least important thing?

It is the ONLY thing that matters. The goal is to win games, to get to the postseason, and to win the WS.

Developing prospects is secondary to that, always.

They are currently over .500. In contention for a wildcard. Improving on that should be the ONLY thing they worry about.

If they get to a point where winning isn't possible, fine, make some moves with only the future in mind, at the expense of the present.

But if management is not worrying primarily about 2015 right now, every single one should be fired. And for the record, I doubt they are thinking about 2016 right now.

And while I'm on a good rant, please explain what Doug Bernier on the roster does for 2016.

I don't want to get into a non concurring dispute with "The Chief" as he is my idol, plus my parents always told me to respect my elders! . But I think realism is part of management, at least it better be. Realism to me is that this team is not contender material. The rest of the parts are in Rochester and Chattanooga. This likely puts the Twins in a dilemma. The current talent can't keep winning, and blowing up the roster will take acclimation time to produce results. To slowly rebuild the roster in the glacial "Twins Way" will only prolong mediocrity. While one could say mediocrity is an improvement, it should not be a teams mission statement.

[whosafraidofluigirussolo]

 

I'm also with you when it comes to Mauer at 1st. I don't think Vargas would be a defensive downgrade. And Vargas at least has the ability to go deep.*

 

*possibly, Mauer's problems are due to the recurrence of concussion symptoms. If so, then Mauer may need to take some time on the DL and possibly consider retirement. Not just because he's not good right now, which, as a fan, I admit to bias, but, also because he has a beautiful young family that he needs to worry about.

 

"Fire up the Speculation Machine, Sherman!"

"Mr. Peabody, should I activate the Mauer Diagnosis and Career Management attachment?"

"Yes, yes, of course, now hop to it!"

[jokin]

 

  Bernier provides the benefit of not playing him...

 

Why do I get the feeling that this line will go down in Twins Way infamy....?

[Craig Arko]

 I also do not get the obsession of tying Vargas' development to Bernier. It seems to be a stretch in the fabric of reality.

[jokin]

 

 Psychologists refer to this as delayed gratification. Sacrifice now for more and better opportunities in the future.

 

 

Haven't Twins fans 'delayed their gratification' and 'sacrificed now' enough already?

 

Baseball owners refer to this as continuing to sell the ballpark/all star game circus and balloons when there are still enough willing suckers to go through the turnstyles.  

 

Come on now Mr. Spinowner, Mr Pohlad authorized an increase in the payroll to over $110M because even he'd finally had enough head in the sand embarrassment more than any one fan can take.  Mr Pohlad is expecting that added dollars will help this team to win more, why can't the fans feel the same way?

[USAFChief]

This is the part on which we concur. Strongly. But I will add to that. The goal is to do that as often as possible. As good as this year's W-L record is on May 18, most reasonable people still peg the Twins as a very, very long shot to win the WS this year. By making prospect development the primary goal in 2015 we are increasing the likelihood of more frequent opportunities to contend in the future. Psychologists refer to this as delayed gratification. Sacrifice now for more and better opportunities in the future.

I agree, " as often as possible."

 

Where we differ is, "forget about the present" seems to me to eliminate the possibility of "as often as possible."

 

If punting the present had any strong likelihood of improving the future, I would feel less strongly about this, but I don't think it does.

 

It wasn't you, but your post about "2016" has been written here in 2012 about 2013, in 2013 about 2014, and 2014 about 2015.

 

We were even promised parades by now. :-)

[KGB]

 

I see "the benefit of not playing him" as a practical matter...the Twins are once again playing with a 24 man roster instead of 25. Whether that's because they wait around for a week with an injury, or to carry someone who won't play is pretty much the same thing.

If they want to send down Vargas once Arcia returns, wait till then. For now let Rosario play OF, and Escobar be the utility infielder. Vargas will get enough ABs, or he shouldn't have made the team out of spring training.

Having a set line up and not playing your bench players on a regular basis isn't the same as playing short handed.  As long as Molitor doesn't feel the need to play his bench,this makes sense.  It would be nice to have a power hitter off the bench but that probably not the role they want Vargas playing now (but maybe his long-term role).  You could find him more AB's if you are willing to sit Mauer more often, but that a discussion for another time.

[jokin]

 

Having a set line up and not playing your bench players on a regular basis isn't the same as playing short handed.  As long as Molitor doesn't feel the need to play his bench,this makes sense.  It would be nice to have a power hitter off the bench but that probably not the role they want Vargas playing now (but maybe his long-term role). 

 

 

Did Molitor and Ryan forget the part about the need for pinch hitters is a factor of 4 times or more likely in a National League park?  Or the part about removing Vargas from the roster this week eliminates the 3 game possibility for Vargas to crank long flies up into the US Cellular jet  stream?

[Mike Sixel]

Won't Vargas still be a DH/1B in 2-3 weeks? Where does he play then? As long as Hunter is on the roster, with Arcia and Hicks and Rosario....there is NO ROOM for Vargas. What changes? Even if they send down Rosario, where does Vargas play most of the time (given their love of Escobar in the OF)?

[spinowner]

 

Haven't Twins fans 'delayed their gratification' and 'sacrificed now' enough already?

 

Baseball owners refer to this as continuing to sell the ballpark/all star game circus and balloons when there are still enough willing suckers to go through the turnstyles.  

 

Come on now Mr. Spinowner, Mr Pohlad authorized an increase in the payroll to over $110M because even he'd finally had enough head in the sand embarrassment more than any one fan can take.  Mr Pohlad is expecting that added dollars will help this team to win more, why can't the fans feel the same way?

If you really think the 2015 Twins are in a position to win the WS then I can see how you'd want to win as many games as possible this season. As for me, I'll repeat that at this stage of the rebuilding process the W-L record takes a back seat to player development. That doesn't mean the players on the major league roster should not try to win games; of course they should. And PM should manage to win games as long as the prime directive of preparing young players to contend in the next 1-2 years is not compromised. Possibly next year and certainly two years from now I expect the Twins to have a win-it-all-this-year mentality.

[Mike Sixel]

I fail to see how having Vargas in AAA helps them win this year.....I also fail to see how having him in AAA helps him this year. He should be playing, here, in MN.

 

But with Mauer and Arcia and Hunter and Escobar on this roster and NEEDING TO PLAY, where does Vargas go?

[Mike Sixel]

 

I fail to see how having Vargas in AAA helps them win this year.....I also fail to see how having him in AAA helps him this year. He should be playing, here, in MN.

 

But with Mauer and Arcia and Hunter and Escobar on this roster and NEEDING TO PLAY, where does Vargas go?

 

Oh, wait.....Arcia is not on the roster, and there is no NEED for Escobar to play the OF, so I got nothing.

[Linus]

 

If you really think the 2015 Twins are in a position to win the WS then I can see how you'd want to win as many games as possible this season. As for me, I'll repeat that at this stage of the rebuilding process the W-L record takes a back seat to player development. That doesn't mean the players on the major league roster should not try to win games; of course they should. And PM should manage to win games as long as the prime directive of preparing young players to contend in the next 1-2 years is not compromised. Possibly next year and certainly two years from now I expect the Twins to have a win-it-all-this-year mentality.

Player development is why he is going to AAA.  The Twins obviously believe it is in his best interest to go to Rochester, probably for a relatively short period of time.  This has nothing to do with Bernier or their win loss record.

 

The Twins are winning, I think it would be in everyone's best interest if we all enjoy it for as long as it lasts and not worry about Doug Bernier.

[jokin]

 

Possibly next year and certainly two years from now I expect the Twins to have a win-it-all-this-year mentality.

 

So... as a counterpoint, you offer faint 'Wait Til Next Year' hope, but positively, certainly, definitely.... 2017...  is when they should start trying to win, 'for real'? Ugh.

[spinowner]

 

So... as a counterpoint, you offer faint 'Wait Til Next Year' hope, but positively, certainly, definitely.... 2017...  is when they should start trying to win, 'for real'? Ugh.

To repeat, or at least to reword, there's nothing wrong with trying to win games now, but let's be real. At this stage of the rebuilding process player development still comes first. This organization has been steadily improving its player personnel from top to bottom since the dark days of 2011 when the cupboard was bare well down into the minor leagues. Rebuilding in baseball takes time unless you are one of the 4 or 5 teams that can spend $300M+ per year on salary. We have worked our way to the point where we have a major league team that's about average with many well-regarded prospects knocking at the door. IMHO, and I do mean H, I think we need to stay the course, continue to develop all our prospects, and expect a strong team capable of making a push at the big time within a couple years.

[stringer bell]

Regarding the Bernier angst, is it possible that the team will trade out Pinto for Bernier after Josmil plays today?  How far is it from Rochester NY to Pittsburgh (I'm guessing it is a car ride)?  Adding Pinto would "free up" Herrmann to play other positions if needed (especially in an NL park) while giving the Twins a home run-capable bat on the bench.  At this point, I believe Pinto is a better hitter than Vargas and Vargas can be helped more by regular ABs in Rochester. 

 

Long term, this doesn't help the too many bat-first corner guys problem, but for the next week, it would make the roster more suited to win games in both Chicago and Pittsburgh.

[bird]

 

Sending Vargas to Rochester fills the Twins need to field lineups like they did today. What other team would bat a Suzuki or Escobar in the 5 hole? Sure you can get away with it for awhile, ie, small sample size. But it's not sustainable. Twins fans can rejoice this little run all they want, it's even kinda fun. The little engine that could. But it's going to get very costly down the road. Sooner or later they are going to have to bite the bullet and straighten out this roster. You cannot continue to be a home for the Hermanns, Shafers, Nunez, and Robinsoms of the world. Nor can you just throw EE in LF because he needs a place to play. You throw big hitters in those spots, and hope the offense balances their shortcomings.

 

 

 

We're starting to get a real sense for what Molitor values in his players. Just read his comments about Vargas, where he describes his muddled head. He just praised Hicks for "being engaged". He was effusive in his praise earlier for Bernier, and it certainly wasn't related to his hitting. His comments about Rosario tend to emphasize his mental approach. Maybe he prefers Herrmann to Pinto for some of the same reasons.

 

Molitor isn't playing Suzuki and Esco in the middle of the order INSTEAD of playing "big hitters" in those spots, though. With Arcia out, his choices are limited right now. I'm confident that Molitor influenced the decision to send Vargas down, and his comments reflect an interest in Vargas's long-term effectiveness and why a stint in AAA might help. I also think the Bernier selection was his call.

 

[nicksaviking]

I can understand not wanting to tie up the DH spot with a full-time player when there are so many young OF and corner IF prospects at AA-AAA and the MLB level.

 

What I can't understand:

1. How it is Nunez/Bernier that affects Vargas' role.

2. How the organization didn't see this coming.  If needing the DH spot for the rotation of the nearly a dozen possible players who are on the team or may be on the team this summer meant not having a full-time DH, doesn't that mean Vargas only being up for a month an a half was basically inevitable?  If he has no role going forward, why wasn't he shopped?

3. Reality TV.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

A 34 year old with options? After playing every year in the minors since 2002 and in the majors with Colorado in 2008 and with the Twins in 2013, 2014, and now 2015? 

You have to be sent to the minors for 20+ days while on the 40-man roster to use an option year.  Bernier hasn't done that yet for the Twins -- he was added to the 40-man roster upon his callups in 2013 and 2014, finished the season with the Twins, and was then out righted and re-signed after the season.  No options involved.  And his only other season with 40-man roster time was 2008, when he spent 3 days in MLB with the Rockies.

 

But don't take my word for it -- Jeremy's organizational chart says the same thing:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/organization-chart.html

 

Actually, I am not sure if he even used an option in 2008 -- according to Rotoworld, the Rockies added him to their 40-man roster when they "purchased his contract" and called him up June 17, optioned him to AAA 3 days later, and then waived and outrighted him off the 40-man roster a week after that, so he did not meet the 20 days threshold to use an optional assignment:

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/mlb/5594/doug-bernier

 

Of course, it's all pretty trivial -- Bernier has spent the last 7+ offseasons being freely available to any MLB club willing to put him on their 40-man roster.   He's not going to get claimed now, at almost age 35, with his lowest AAA OPS since 2009.

[bird]

 

And we haven't even discussed the mess when Stauffer and Fien comes back.

 

 

 

That's because we're not done discussing the mess caused by the Boyer decision.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

There isn't going to be a better time in the schedule to send him to AAA.

Except a week ago, when Molitor decided to stop playing Vargas.  He had 3 starts in the last 7 games.  Escobar started all 7.

[Jerr]

 

 I also do not get the obsession of tying Vargas' development to Bernier. It seems to be a stretch in the fabric of reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fabric_of_Reality, just to help me and others  I think lol lol

[bird]

 

I would be curious, though, to have an idea of whose, well, idea this was mostly ... was this more a Ryan move or a Molitor request or the two hashing it out together? Not sure what knowing would change in my mind, but I'm still curious as to how, why, even though I'll never know.

 

If we had a beat writer or two that would ask an occasional relevant question, we might actuallyy know....