TRYING HARD to find that SILVER LINING

[kab21]

We clearly need to invest prospects and/or significant money in more old players.  Awesome idea.

 

Schafer is an unspectacular placeholder (and cheap) for the season.  Mastro was a fine plan B until he got hurt.  I don't understand your fascination with Robinson being the answer to any question.  He isn't.  He's had 7 PA's so far.

[JB_Iowa]

I find the silver lining by reading the minor league summaries for the day.  At least that gives me something to anticipate ... and reminds me that we could be stuck with the major league performance without any hope on the horizon.

[TheLeviathan]

 

We clearly need to invest prospects and/or significant money in more old players.  Awesome idea.

 

Schafer is an unspectacular placeholder (and cheap) for the season.  Mastro was a fine plan B until he got hurt.  I don't understand your fascination with Robinson being the answer to any question.  He isn't.  He's had 7 PA's so far.

 

Bourjos is not an "old" player.  Neither is Gose.  And I'm not attached to our 15th best prospect in AA so much that I want to see another disaster in CF again if it can be prevented.

 

We have young pitching and a park that necessitates good CF play, it should've been prioritized.  But If you think Mastro was a "fine" Plan B I'm not sure we're going to see eye to eye on this no matter what.

[howieramone2]

 

Paving the road and leaving it "unblocked" is what the Twins did for Hicks, and how the CF boondoggle originated.

Choosing the same route for Buxton seems like making the same mistake, to me.

 

Just because a plan didn't work, doesn't mean it was a bad plan or can't be repeated in some form. This season isn't going to be decided by who we have out in CF. Placeholders are fine until Buxton is ready.

[JB_Iowa]

Placeholders are fine until Buxton is ready.

And if that doesn't happen? He doesn't come with a guarantee.

[stringer bell]

Buxton does not equal Hicks.  Hicks is a guy who advanced slowly through the ranks to AA and then was thrown to the wolves at age 23.  Many were projecting him to be a competent major league center fielder based on good (not great) tools and a history of progression.  Buxton has been ranked in the very top of prospects since he came into the system.  The tools are far better than Hicks, but it still comes down to projection.  Buxton could fail, but it would be quite a surprise.  Hicks uninspiring major league career so far is much less of a surprise. 

 

That said, Buxton's struggles to stay healthy and some struggles against breaking pitches and changes of speed are probably raising some uncertainty.  He's young and immensely talented and center field looks pretty grim if he's isn't ready in twelve months or so.

[kab21]

 

Bourjos is not an "old" player.  Neither is Gose.  And I'm not attached to our 15th best prospect in AA so much that I want to see another disaster in CF again if it can be prevented.

 

We have young pitching and a park that necessitates good CF play, it should've been prioritized.  But If you think Mastro was a "fine" Plan B I'm not sure we're going to see eye to eye on this no matter what.

 

Bourjos is a 28 yr old whose 3 yr OBP barely cracks .300.  Don't make him into something he isn't.  He's not part of the future and he wasn't going to be cheap.  It took a top 100 prospect to get Gose.  That is a lot more valuable than our 15th best prospect.  And Gose is very overrated.  He has barely been able to crack a .300 OBP in the last 2 seasons in AAA. 

 

You seem to only be interested in less craptastic options but want to give up decent value to get to a less craptastic level.  Unless the Twins were actually acquiring a GOOD player that was part of the team's future they shouldn't be giving up good prospects or giving out multi-yr contracts.

[nicksaviking]

Just because a plan didn't work, doesn't mean it was a bad plan or can't be repeated in some form. This season isn't going to be decided by who we have out in CF. Placeholders are fine until Buxton is ready.

I agree, but then I still wonder why placeholders weren't fine until the young pitching was ready. Signing aging non-elite pitchers to long term deals has proven to be much more detrimental to a team's efforts than signing or trading for position players.

 

There is no consistancy with this club. On the field or with the decisions in the front office.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Bourjos is a 28 yr old whose 3 yr OBP barely cracks .300.  Don't make him into something he isn't.  He's not part of the future and he wasn't going to be cheap.  It took a top 100 prospect to get Gose.  That is a lot more valuable than our 15th best prospect.  And Gose is very overrated.  He has barely been able to crack a .300 OBP in the last 2 seasons in AAA. 

 

You seem to only be interested in less craptastic options but want to give up decent value to get to a less craptastic level.  Unless the Twins were actually acquiring a GOOD player that was part of the team's future they shouldn't be giving up good prospects or giving out multi-yr contracts.

 

You don't help your team get better by accepting bad players playing for you.  Bourjos is not a good offensive player, he is a good defensive player, however.  The problem is the Twins have managed to put both a crappy hitter AND a crappy fielder at arguably the second most important position in the field for three years now under the same logic you are defending: clear the way for Hicks.  

 

I cannot claim your apparent insight into player prices around the league (you should share your source, it appears you have it all figured out) but I know that if the best player we can manage as a 4th OF that can play CF is some pick your poison between Mastro/Schaefer/Robinson....we're not trying hard enough.  

 

Had this team fielded competent plan Bs the last two years and this year was different for Buxton I'd have less of a complaint, but this is the THIRD YEAR of this disaster.

[stringer bell]

I've beaten the drum to trade for Bourjos since early in the off-season.  While I acknowledge that he isn't a great hitter, he is elite defensively, if currently healthy.  Putting one of the top defenders in all of baseball in center field for somewhere between 60 and 80 per cent of the innings might do wonders for the Twins outfield defense and their pitching staff.  I could live with Bourjos (lifetime OPS+ 94) hitting ninth in a lineup that had all eight other regulars with OPS+ north of 100 last year. 

[USAFChief]

Just because a plan didn't work, doesn't mean it was a bad plan or can't be repeated in some form. This season isn't going to be decided by who we have out in CF. Placeholders are fine until Buxton is ready.

1. See JB's response above.

 

2. If this season isn't going to be decided by who's in CF, why should we think future seasons will be?

 

3. I'm not ok with wasting seasons with "placeholders." In addition to the problem JB succinctly pointed out, I personally expect more than that. I don't believe in rebuilds, it shouldn't take that long, and rebuilds rarely work.. And even if you are a fan of rebuilds, a placeholder does nothing for you now, and nothing for your rebuild. At the least, if you can't put a good player out there, find someone who might someday be a good player. That's not Schafer, and it's not Robinson.

[Kwak]

 

We clearly need to invest prospects and/or significant money in more old players.  Awesome idea.

 

Schafer is an unspectacular placeholder (and cheap) for the season.  Mastro was a fine plan B until he got hurt.  I don't understand your fascination with Robinson being the answer to any question.  He isn't.  He's had 7 PA's so far.

Finally!  Someone who remembers that in 2013 "everything wasn't on Hicks" in CF.  Mastroianni was the second person of the CF mix/competition.  He was a journeyman who had his last chance to become a starter and badly damaged his foot during Spring Training.  When Hicks "hicks-up",  Mastroianni was  put into the line-up before his foot had healed--hence making it far worse.  The classic double-mode failure--both options for CF failed, one by injury the other "didn't cut it".  Thank You for reminding other readers of Mastroianni as the "fallback" for CF.

[USAFChief]

Mastroianni has a grand total of 306 big league plate appearances, 32 since leaving the Twins. .212/.274/.289. I don't think he was a reasonable big league starter any more than Schafer.

 

Placeholders aren't the answer.

[TheLeviathan]

Mastroianni has a grand total of 306 big league plate appearances, 32 since leaving the Twins. .212/.274/.289. I don't think he was a reasonable big league starter any more than Schafer.

Placeholders aren't the answer.

Mastroianni has a grand total of 306 big league plate appearances, 32 since leaving the Twins. .212/.274/.289. I don't think he was a reasonable big league starter any more than Schafer.

Placeholders aren't the answer.

And yet despite being an inept player, Mastro still wasn't the worst Plan B of the last three years. Amazing.

[big dog]

1.  I don't know what's going on with Arcia.  Not a great spring training by any means (.269 OBP, .692 OPS, 13 Ks, 0 BBs, fielding that seemed to range between indifferent and bad).  He needs to do something well, whether it's getting on base, slugging, or fielding.  Anything.   

 

2.  I wouldn't restrict the outfield conversation to CF, seeing as how we had Nunez playing on roller skates out there yesterday again.  Just befuddling.

 

3.  Nick Burdi has 6 walks in his first 1 2/3 innings this year.  I don't think his problem is that he was blocked by older relievers.  Let's see if he can maybe dominate AA for a month or so before we toss him into the bigs.  I bet he can, but it would be good to actually see it happen rather than assume he could and move him up first.

 

So here's my silver lining- at least a couple of issues are sorting themselves out quickly.  The outfield is even worse than we thought, so I don't see how we can just ride it out.  Something will have to happen, and right now just about anything is better than status quo.  

 

And the bullpen has such clear problems that again, I don't think it will be a long wait before things change.  

 

And May is up.  That is good.

 

 

[howieramone2]

Mastroianni has a grand total of 306 big league plate appearances, 32 since leaving the Twins. .212/.274/.289. I don't think he was a reasonable big league starter any more than Schafer.

 

Placeholders aren't the answer.

That's why they call them placeholders. I believe our favorite team feels they have adequately addressed CF at this time, with Hicks potentially waiting in the wings, and the ever popular waiver claims also available. Most posters know the only guarantees in life are death and taxes, but Buxton as the Twins CF of the future is not all that far behind.

[diehardtwinsfan]

That's why they call them placeholders. I believe our favorite team feels they have adequately addressed CF at this time, with Hicks potentially waiting in the wings, and the ever popular waiver claims also available. Most posters know the only guarantees in life are death and taxes, but Buxton as the Twins CF of the future is not all that far behind.

There's something to be said about an established player not signing here with a top prospect sitting in AA, and I think there's something to be said for only wanting a short term deal on this side too, but to say that the CF situation was adequately addressed is going a bit too far. My definition of a place holder would be to get someone on a make good deal who has actually had some major league success. Schaffer, other than a brief stint last season, hasn't. I don't think Robinson ever has. Heck, they could have had Kemp for next to nothing if they picked up his contract, and I think that would have been a far better pickup than Hunter/Robinson. Kemp could have slid over to center or at the very least could have provided upgraded defense (and offense) in left.

[tobi0040]

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Beware the "5-Tool Player".  They'll only break your heart. 

 

A lot of truth in this statement, but I think it has more to do with the label applying to people that don't deserve it. Scouts throw this label on anyone they deem athletic, like Aaron Hicks or Joe Benson.

 

Buxton is a plus runner, defender, and thrower right now.  Nobody can deny that.  He has hit for average when healthy and most agree that the power should come.  If not, I will take the other four.

[USAFChief]

I believe our favorite team feels they have adequately addressed CF at this time...

Geez, I hope not.

[tobi0040]

 

1. See JB's response above.

2. If this season isn't going to be decided by who's in CF, why should we think future seasons will be?

3. I'm not ok with wasting seasons with "placeholders." In addition to the problem JB succinctly pointed out, I personally expect more than that. I don't believe in rebuilds, it shouldn't take that long, and rebuilds rarely work.. And even if you are a fan of rebuilds, a placeholder does nothing for you now, and nothing for your rebuild. At the least, if you can't put a good player out there, find someone who might someday be a good player. That's not Schafer, and it's not Robinson.

 

The answer was as clear as day, Colby Rasmus.  He signed for 1 year and $8M.  Clearly 100% better than Schafer or Robinson, with potential to stick on the team after Buxton arrives.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I agree, but then I still wonder why placeholders weren't fine until the young pitching was ready. Signing aging non-elite pitchers to long term deals has proven to be much more detrimental to a team's efforts than signing or trading for position players.

There is no consistancy with this club. On the field or with the decisions in the front office.

 

This, 100% this.......

[HitInAPinch]

 

A lot of truth in this statement, but I think it has more to do with the label applying to people that don't deserve it. Scouts throw this label on anyone they deem athletic, like Aaron Hicks or Joe Benson.

 

Buxton is a plus runner, defender, and thrower right now.  Nobody can deny that.  He has hit for average when healthy and most agree that the power should come.  If not, I will take the other four.

 

I agree, but would add that it's labeling a player who is in A - A+ ball.  And that doesn't necessarily carry on to higher levels.  Those 5 tools applied to Hicks and Benson at the lower levels, but not in MLB.    Buxton's great 2013 year was Amazing!  However, it's still A - A+ ball.

 

Hicks, Benson and Buxton all deserve the "5 Tool Player" label at one point in their MiLB careers.  Beware the next higher level.

[jimmer]

 

1.  I don't know what's going on with Arcia.  Not a great spring training by any means (.269 OBP, .692 OPS, 13 Ks, 0 BBs, fielding that seemed to range between indifferent and bad).  He needs to do something well, whether it's getting on base, slugging, or fielding.  Anything.   

 

2.  I wouldn't restrict the outfield conversation to CF, seeing as how we had Nunez playing on roller skates out there yesterday again.  Just befuddling.

 

3.  Nick Burdi has 6 walks in his first 1 2/3 innings this year.  I don't think his problem is that he was blocked by older relievers.  Let's see if he can maybe dominate AA for a month or so before we toss him into the bigs.  I bet he can, but it would be good to actually see it happen rather than assume he could and move him up first.

 

So here's my silver lining- at least a couple of issues are sorting themselves out quickly.  The outfield is even worse than we thought, so I don't see how we can just ride it out.  Something will have to happen, and right now just about anything is better than status quo.  

 

And the bullpen has such clear problems that again, I don't think it will be a long wait before things change.  

 

And May is up.  That is good.

The OF is pretty much exactly as bad as some of us thought it would be. At least defensively.

[Mike Sixel]

So far, so far.....this season is a repeat of the last couple. At some point, I hope they just flush the mediocre old guys, and bring up the young guys. That's what they did the last two times they were good. Of course, I hoped that last year, and the year before.....

 

 

[jimmer]

 

The answer was as clear as day, Colby Rasmus.  He signed for 1 year and $8M.  Clearly 100% better than Schafer or Robinson, with potential to stick on the team after Buxton arrives.

We drafted Buston in 2012. We traded Span the offseason after we drafted Buxton. We should not have had to wait three offseasons to address the CF spot.

[big dog]

 

The OF is pretty much exactly as bad as some of us thought it would be. At least defensively.

It is also worse offensively, at least in this very small sample size.  So I think it's worse so far than even some of the most pessimistic thought it would be. 

 

Hopefully at least the hitting turns around a little.  I doubt if Hunter will get faster, and I'm starting to wonder if Arcia will get even a little better (though at least there's some possibility of that).

[tobi0040]

 

We drafted Buston in 2012. We traded Span the offseason after we drafted Buxton. We should not have had to wait three offseasons to address the CF spot.

 

I agree.  It should not have taken that long to address it.  But this off-season he should have been signed.

[jimmer]

 

It is also worse offensively, at least in this very small sample size.  So I think it's worse so far than even some of the most pessimistic thought it would be. 

 

Hopefully at least the hitting turns around a little.  I doubt if Hunter will get faster, and I'm starting to wonder if Arcia will get even a little better (though at least there's some possibility of that).

I guess my point was, a good chunk of us knew the OF defense was going to be horrendous.  And while the offense provided by the OF has also been very bad, it will get better, though I doubt it will get as good as some thought it would be.

[tobi0040]

 

I agree, but would add that it's labeling a player who is in A - A+ ball.  And that doesn't necessarily carry on to higher levels.  Those 5 tools applied to Hicks and Benson at the lower levels, but not in MLB.    Buxton's great 2013 year was Amazing!  However, it's still A - A+ ball.

 

Hicks, Benson and Buxton all deserve the "5 Tool Player" label at one point in their MiLB careers.  Beware the next higher level.

 

I can't say HIcks and Benson ever had the tools for the label.  Hicks has 40 HR in 570 minor league games.  Buxton has almost as many SB's in 300 fewer games.  From what I have seen of Hicks defense, I can't imagine that was ever plus.

 

[adorduan]

We might be wishing we had Sam Fuld back soon enough, as sad as that is.