TRYING HARD to find that SILVER LINING

[TheLeviathan]

 

We might be wishing we had Sam Fuld back soon enough, as sad as that is.

 

Wait, you mean there isn't a Fuld Tree to help us when we decide a career SS in his 30s, a year removed from baseball, makes for a good Plan B in CF?

 

Someone should tell Terry.  Quick.

[Kwak]

 

Mastroianni has a grand total of 306 big league plate appearances, 32 since leaving the Twins. .212/.274/.289. I don't think he was a reasonable big league starter any more than Schafer.

Placeholders aren't the answer.

You seem to have forgotten some things.  Mastroianni's Spring training was about as productive as Hicks, save for that one, monster game Hicks had (3HRs plus at least another hit or maybe a walk). Hicks was hitting HRs that Spring, Mastroianni had about the same BAVG--but not the HRs. Then, Mastroianni's injury--he wasn't the same afterwards--a sad tale. But his Spring Training was very productive--normally enough to win the starter's job, except for Hick's HRs (plus Hicks had the halo effect of a 1st round draft choice). Things would not have been so bad in 2013 if Mastroianni had not been injured given the Hicks failure.

[tobi0040]

 

You seem to have forgotten some things.  Mastroianni's Spring training was about as productive as Hicks, save for that one, monster game Hicks had (3HRs plus at least another hit or maybe a walk). Hicks was hitting HRs that Spring, Mastroianni had about the same BAVG--but not the HRs. Then, Mastroianni's injury--he wasn't the same afterwards--a sad tale. But his Spring Training was very productive--normally enough to win the starter's job, except for Hick's HRs (plus Hicks had the halo effect of a 1st round draft choice). Things would not have been so bad in 2013 if Mastroianni had not been injured given the Hicks failure.

 

We keep coming back to this.  This is exactly why you don't annoint a guy based on 30-40 at bats in spring training.  When you have an MLB track record that is a .564 OPS across 300 games.  That should be a better bar.

[Kwak]

 

We keep coming back to this.  This is exactly why you don't annoint a guy based on 30-40 at bats in spring training.  When you have an MLB track record that is a .564 OPS across 300 games.  That should be a better bar.

There was a real  competition for the starting CF position in 2013 between Hicks and Mastroianni. Hicks was declared the winner. Maybe Hicks had the "inside track" due to him being a "1st Round draft choice" and his minor league numbers (at that time), but it wasn't a given that Hicks would be the CF.

 At some point (like many other poster than just me) have stated the team must make the leap of faith and declare the rookie the "starter." The alternative of buying "cute-rate" free agents to be your team (because your minor leaguers aren't proven MLB players!--Catch 22) will doom your team to mediocrity (at best).

[tobi0040]

 

There was a real  competition for the starting CF position in 2013 between Hicks and Mastroianni. Hicks was declared the winner. Maybe Hicks had the "inside track" due to him being a "1st Round draft choice" and his minor league numbers (at that time), but it wasn't a given that Hicks would be the CF.

 At some point (like many other poster than just me) have stated the team must make the leap of faith and declare the rookie the "starter." The alternative of buying "cute-rate" free agents to be your team (because your minor leaguers aren't proven MLB players!--Catch 22) will doom your team to mediocrity (at best).

 

In my opinion, Hicks was declared the winner when we traded Span and Revere.

[Riverbrian]

As for the Silver Lining... I'm usually optimistic but I'm having a hard time being optimistic when the team... let three routine balls drop like they did yesterday. 

 

I realize it's just one game but C'mon... This is major league baseball. Surely we can field a team that doesn't let three balls drop. 

 

As for CF... I can't see it any other way. I usually give the front office the benefit of the doubt but the approach to CF as been as confusing as it gets and I'm still confused. You don't sign placeholders ever... Some of us call them placeholders but you sign players who can play and if Buxton causes a log jam in the future... That's good... It's never bad.

 

It seems that we have a group of people in the front office who gather together and discuss all facets of each player at every position including backup. And this group of people has been unable to come up with a solid plan for CF. The Twins have simply failed to address CF adequately and have repeated the mistake year after year. I'm not going to tell them what they should have done but I will tell them that they haven't done it. 

 

As for the long term contracts given to Starting Pitching... That's what happens when you are desperate. The Twins rotation has been bone dry.

 

The Team will get better when the rotation gets better. The Rotation will have a hard time getting better when desperation causes you to overpay in an attempt to be at least average. You will have a hard time being average if the team behind the pitching is capable of dropping 3 cans of corns in a single game. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

One More Thing... I still consider myself to be more positive then negative. 

 

I also still consider myself to be more Pro-Terry Ryan than Anti-Terry Ryan. 

 

I've always considered trading to be a difficult thing because it takes two teams to agree to make a trade and I always figured that it would take trading our top prospects to acquire the players we need. So I was OK with being patient.  

 

And then something called A.J. Preller came along. 

[Halsey Hall]

It seems that we have a group of people in the front office who gather together and discuss all facets of each player at every position including backup.

 

I think they come up with their plan.  But they forget there's four other teams in the division.

[Loosey]

CF has been a black hole since Span and Revere were traded.  Buxton hopefully is the future there but Robinson and Shaefer are not the current answers.  However I do not agree with giving up top 20 prospects to fill a position that will have a long-term answer there shortly (Buxton).  Signing a Rasmus type player deal on the other hand would have been a good move, some money and short years.  Even if that player would have overlapped with Buxton in the big leagues, who cares, it's called depth and it is something the current Twins seem to be unfamiliar with.

 

The other options would be Hicks.  Keeping him in the minors does nothing for him or the Twins in my opinion.  We know he can be a good Minor league player.  I think giving him one last shot on the Twins roster would have been the way to go.  Maybe you catch lighting in a bottle and create an asset you hold onto and move to a different position or create value and trade at some point if Buxton comes up and proves himself the player we all hope he becomes. 

[tobi0040]

 

CF has been a black hole since Span and Revere were traded.  Buxton hopefully is the future there but Robinson and Shaefer are not the current answers.  However I do not agree with giving up top 20 prospects to fill a position that will have a long-term answer there shortly (Buxton).  Signing a Rasmus type player deal on the other hand would have been a good move, some money and short years.  Even if that player would have overlapped with Buxton in the big leagues, who cares, it's called depth and it is something the current Twins seem to be unfamiliar with.

 

The other options would be Hicks.  Keeping him in the minors does nothing for him or the Twins in my opinion.  We know he can be a good Minor league player.  I think giving him one last shot on the Twins roster would have been the way to go.  Maybe you catch lighting in a bottle and create an asset you hold onto and move to a different position or create value and trade at some point if Buxton comes up and proves himself the player we all hope he becomes. 

 

The issue is Revere is no better than Sam Fuld.  His career OPS is .660 versus .658 for Fuld (Granted he will swipe bags).  But turning Revere into a guy that looked like a MLB pitcher and a prospect that can miss bats....you do that deal all day. 

 

I would also do the Span for Meyer deal all day as well.  He was a 40-50th prospect and Span was going to be older when we were good again.  Most the value in Span was tied up in that contract which only had 2-3 years on it.  We weren't going to be good in that window.

 

I don't really fault the Twins for mis-judging what they had in Hicks and doing these deals.  With hindsight it is easier to judge.  But halfway through and certainly at the end of 2013, Hicks had red flags all over him and they needed to bring in a better CF

 

 

[jimmer]

 

As for the Silver Lining... I'm usually optimistic but I'm having a hard time being optimistic when the team... let three routine balls drop like they did yesterday. 

 

I realize it's just one game but C'mon... This is major league baseball. Surely we can field a team that doesn't let three balls drop. 

 

 

You will have a hard time being average if the team behind the pitching is capable of dropping 3 cans of corns in a single game.

 

the OF defense has been embarrassing for awhile and, IMO, is getting worse.

[big dog]

 

The issue is Revere is no better than Sam Fuld.  His career OPS is .660 versus .658 for Fuld.  Turning Revere into a guy that looked like a MLB pitcher and a prospect that can miss bats....you do that deal all day.

Given the state of our staff right now, I'd rather have Milone than Fuld, too.  I'd also rather have someone better than Fuld in CF.  Somehow I don't see why that appears to be so hard.

[tobi0040]

 

Given the state of our staff right now, I'd rather have Milone than Fuld, too.  I'd also rather have someone better than Fuld in CF.  Somehow I don't see why that appears to be so hard.

 

GM's don't like to be wrong. So when the GM drafted a guy, he will be given a leash that is too long because the GM wants to ultimately be proven right.  I think that is what has happened with Aaron Hicks.

 

 

 

[Loosey]

I wasn't saying trading Revere or Span was a bad move and caused this mess.  I was more or less using it as a time frame reference.  However, the Twins should have had a plan in place to replace them.  And, even with his noodle arm and .660 OPS I would take him any day over the two we currently have.  He does hit around .300 every year.  If he can mix in a few walks here and there it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities for him to be a .700+ OPS guy.

[Mike Sixel]

Silver linings:

 

1. Spell check usually helps posts be better.

2. It isn't going to get worse, so the tone here should improve.

3. Phil Hughes and Joe Mauer.

4. May is up, and should get 2 starts to show his stuff.

5. The stats that led people to predict this OF defense would be bad, and that OF defense does matter.....appear to be true.*

 

*not everyone will agree with this being a silver lining, but I do.

[Mike Sixel]

 

GM's don't like to be wrong. So when the GM drafted a guy, he will be given a leash that is too long because the GM wants to ultimately be proven right.  I think that is what has happened with Aaron Hicks.

 

Disagree. Hicks is being given a leash because he's close to being a MLB player. And, he's youngish.

[jimmer]

 

Disagree. Hicks is being given a leash because he's close to being a MLB player. And, he's youngish.

Slightly younger than May, slightly older than Meyer, all three 25.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Slightly younger than May, slightly older than Meyer, all three 25.

 

Ya, while typing that I got the yips.........hence "youngish", not "young"......and I thought he was 24.....alas, it is worse than I thought.

[jimmer]

 

 

5. The stats that led people to predict this OF defense would be bad, and that OF defense does matter.....appear to be true.*

 

*not everyone will agree with this being a silver lining, but I do.

The stats shouldn't have even needed to be used.  They just back up what they eyes should see.  Those OFs are bad defensively.

[tobi0040]

 

Disagree. Hicks is being given a leash because he's close to being a MLB player. And, he's youngish.

 

It is hard to look at the stats over the last two years and conclude he is close to being an MLB player.

[Mike Sixel]

It is hard to look at the stats over the last two years and conclude he is close to being an MLB player.

The line between where Hicks is and good player isn't that wide.

[Kwak]

Silver Linings?

 

1) When posters realize a guy can't be in the minors and the majors simultaneously.

2) When the Twins focus on one goal--either winning consistently in the future, or, winning "enough" now, or     controlling payroll.

3) Accept that most rookies struggle and dues have to be paid.

4) Stop protecting the status quo and start copying the presently successful teams' strategies.

[tobi0040]

 

The line between where Hicks is and good player isn't that wide.

 

We must not agree on where the line is. 

 

My good player line is a long, long ways from a .201 average, .606 OPS, 69 OPS plus.

[Mike Sixel]

Any player in AAA is close to being a MLB. Sometimes I think people don't understand how close they are.

[tobi0040]

 

Any player in AAA is close to being a MLB. Sometimes I think people don't understand how close they are.

 

Most AAA journeyman can come up and put up a .600 OPS.  Those guys are a dime a dozen.  But it does not mean they are close to being average MLB players IMO.  HIcks numbers have shown he has been completely outmatched at this level.  I am not writing him off.  But he has not been close.

[laloesch]

 

The same Rosario who hit .237/.277/.396 in 336 plate appearances in AA last season?  What is performing well in ST?  He hit .233/.227/.442 this Spring.  Yes, he can field but if anything he has shown he is not ready.  He should have to at least show SOME aspect that he is ready for the show before he is labeled "blocked."

 

Before 2014 neither Meyer nor May were blocked, as neither of them had pitched above AA!  Pelfrey and Nolasco were signed before either one of them had thrown a pitch above AA.  They both still struggle with control, but I think we both can agree they both probably should be getting a shot right now. 

 

How is Burdi "blocked" by anyone?  He was drafted less than a year ago and before last week he had never pitched above A ball.  I think some people see a handful of college pitchers make it very quickly to the majors and assume every college reliever should be the same.  Burdi is a great talent and will earn his spot, but he didn't even get an invite to ST, his spot is not being blocked.

 

I just think there is this general consensus that the Twins are not aggressive when promoting guys which really isn't very true.

 

 

And this line of thinking is exactly why the Twins have been stuck in Neutral going now-where real fast the past two seasons.   

 

I am tired of the spin and the excuses.  It's time too dump the "reliable mediocre veterans" Stuaffer, Pelfrey, Boyer, Robinson, Nolasco, etc. in favor of the prospects even if they experience some serious growing pains in the process.  The sooner this happens the sooner this franchise can get back to winning.  Really all the front office is doing is stunting the franchise's return to relevancy.  

 

We can debate this until were all blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is that we have too many good prospects knocking on the door (Meyer, May, Berrios, Sano, Rosario, Polanco, Buxton, Burdi, Reed, etc.), to be watching this garbage at Target Field. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Disagree. Hicks is being given a leash because he's close to being a MLB player. And, he's youngish.

 

I disagree slightly.  Hicks was given leash because he was thought to be close to a MLB player.  That was a miscalculation (one I think could have been foreseen by his minor league track record), but that leash got too long when it was clear he was overmatched and needed more work.  Rather than reverse course and do something about that the team has twice felt like making him the incumbent CF was the right move.  (And further felt like having the likes of Bartlett and Mastro as Plan B, so doubling down on their miscalculations)

 

It's that mistake that feels like the leash was too long, especially from a guy that wasn't even a good fielder on top of his incompetence at hitting the ball with any authority.

[Mike Sixel]

Don't get me wrong. .... I asked for Ellsbury to be signed. I am not a Hicks believer. And, not having a plan this long, or to be clear, a good backup plan, is hard to understand.

[chopper0080]

In the end the Hicks situation is almost certain to happen again.  Anytime you have a MLB roster that is devoid of talent, and whose success depends on young players coming in and carrying the load, young players break.  Look at Arcia.  He gets ripped for his defense when the facts are, that is a weakness of his and it gets exploited when you suround him with equally poor fielders.  You have a lineup devoid of talent and so players try to do more to help their team win rather than play to their strengths.

 

it is so sad that there is absolutely nothing this team can hang it's hat on when they come to the park.  Can't hit.  Can't field.  Can't pitch to begin the game.  Can't pitch at the end of the game.  You should be able to get one of these things right after four consecutive 90 loss seasons.

 

[Riverbrian]

Fans always lose their minds in the first couple of weeks of the season.

 

However... I'm now included in this group.

 

This has been some of the worst professional baseball I've watched in a long time.

 

I'm now in the questions need to be asked of the Front Office group.

 

Yes... It's the first week of the season... It will get better... There is no way a team can continue to play this bad defensively so it has to get better... but can it get better enough? I still expect the hitting to do well eventually... But can the hitting get better enough to cover for the defense and bullpen... or the starters? I'm not so sure.

 

The pitching... We won't know if it's actually better or not... They are getting no help on defense at all so we will assume it's still struggling.

 

I'm really trying hard to not over-react after 7 games but the play on the field is leaving me little choice. This has been the worst stretch of 7 games since... I don't know... September 2013.  I was pretty frustrated watching the team in September of 2013... I almost stopped watching.

 

They have a day off tomorrow... They look like they already need it.