Terry Ryan scheduled to see Alex Meyer pitch for the first time next Monday

[DocBauer]

A thought to share and debate.

 

In this particular thread, and others over the past month or so, I've read several comments regarding the Twins "promotion philosophy", if one truly exists. There has been a sentiment that the Twins are more aggresive in promoting position players vs pitchers. And it think it's worth looking at. Now, to be fair, I'm discounting the early 80's when the team seemed to virtually promote an entire team from the A and AA ranks.

 

Again, to be fair, I'm not taking the time to research year after year after year. I know the Twins did promote both Radke and Erickson from AA in the 90's. I believe Milton was also, my memory can't recall if he saw any AAA time right now.

 

I would argue that May, factoring in time missed due to injury, has actually been promoted quickly after what equates to about a half season of AAA experience. I could add Thielbar and Tonkin as well, one of which has stuck, one of which hasn't as of yet, after limited AAA experience. In other words, I'm not really sure the Twins are truly that conservative with promoting pitching prospects, just maybe, more conservative than anxious fans want them to be.

 

While not ML promotions, one could argue that promotions of top prospects such as Berrios, Thorpe and even Duffy would indicate just the opposite of a conservative approach. Hu, Gonsalves and even Stewart might be mentioned as well considering their ages.

 

For position players, Hicks, Arcia, Pinto, Santana and Vargas are examples of quick promotions the past couple of years. You could include Revere a couple years ago as another example.

 

I'm not sure there truly is an organizational difference in treatment of pitchers vs position players in regard to promotion. Perhaps more thorough research could settle this idea. Any volunteers? LOL

 

But let's assume, for a moment, that the perception shared by some is accurate and would prove to be true with additional research. The question then becomes why?

 

Is there a fear of failure for pitchers? Do they feel position players, used to bad days and bad stretches, but allowed to play every day and rebound, finding success in this manor is different and easier to coach and work with than a pitcher who throws only every 5th day, or intermittently from the bullpen?

 

Again, I'm not convinced there is some double standard. But it might be worth discussing.

[PseudoSABR]

Wow.  Exactly no one has said anything close to what you're intimating.

What kind of player performance from May or Gibson (or whomever) would show (or would have shown) that the Twins acted deftly in their handling of these specific pitchers?   What set of facts would have to emerge to demonstrate that these pitchers indeed needed more time to develop than the 'preferred' development schedule.  

[PseudoSABR]

In this particular thread, and others over the past month or so, I've read several comments regarding the Twins "promotion philosophy", if one truly exists. 

As you illuminate, their philosophy is far less contingent on throw-back beliefs or steadfastly-held universal schedules; rather it seems case by case, except when injury is involved where they do slow down the promotion schedule.  

 

It would be an interesting exercise for some posters in this thread to finish the sentence "I believe the Twins philosophy is....".    

[TheLeviathan]

It's not that there is a double standard or that the Twins are doing something wrong, but in recent years it seems hitters are more aggressively going from AA to the big leagues.

 

There are a multitude of reasons for this and many quite justifiable and commendable. We just don't know why because all we hear are cliches that are often more puzzling than illuminating. And it's not that they need to share specifics for me, just be very general ("there are concerns in his approach you wouldn't find in a box score") as opposed to "consistency" or other demonstrably silly justifications.

[PseudoSABR]

There are a multitude of reasons for this and many quite justifiable and commendable. We just don't know why because all we hear are cliches that are often more puzzling than illuminating. And it's not that they need to share specifics for me, just be very general ("there are concerns in his approach you wouldn't find in a box score") as opposed to "consistency" or other demonstrably silly justifications.

Do other teams give more substantive reasons for their transactions?  

 

As an aside, I haven't seen mentioned.  Beyond a few minor set backs, prospect pitchers A-ball and above have been remarkably healthy.  As much as impending success (or lack there of) has to do with slow promotion, the fragility of young arms is probably an equal consideration.

[TheLeviathan]

Do other teams give more substantive reasons for their transactions? .

I have no idea. The problem isn't how substantive the reasons are, but how demonstrably false they seem to be.

[Mr. Brooks]

Absolutely correct... Service Clock, arbitration, free agency, they're all out the door at this point.

 

This is not entirely true. 

By not calling him up at all this year, they can begin to push the service clock back into next year, getting them yet another year of team control. 

[jokin]

This is not entirely true. 

By not calling him up at all this year, they can begin to push the service clock back into next year, getting them yet another year of team control. 

 

Bingo, Mr Brooks, the temptation to play this newest family game of delay-cliche^'s (Fun for Twins Fans of All Ages!) for the best starting pitcher prospects, "Consistency", oops, "Prepared"-ness^TM, I guess, can now easily extend past the first months and even to the next Super 2 cutoff date in 2015.

[old nurse]

This is not entirely true. 

By not calling him up at all this year, they can begin to push the service clock back into next year, getting them yet another year of team control. 

To put it politely, you may think that if you like. I do not recall players that the Twins have held back to avoid arbitration. I would cynically say someone out there will say they held bag Vargas for arb. The Twins do have a little caution in promoting pitchers but they generally go with the best player possible. Generally. not always

[jokin]

To put it politely, you may think that if you like. I do not recall players that the Twins have held back to avoid arbitration. I would cynically say someone out there will say they held bag Vargas for arb. The Twins do have a little caution in promoting pitchers but they generally go with the best player possible. Generally. not always

Except that they did nothing of the sort in last three cases for promoting the best pitcher possible over the last 2 seasons.

 

On the Vargas question, they had many chances to call up Vargas after the player control date, but before the Super 2 date, oft-times when they were clearly short a bat, but they opted instead for the extra pitcher, third catcher or finally, Kendrys Morales.  (I can't fault them on the Polanco call-up, they clearly needed an extra infielder in that case).

[USAFChief]

To put it politely, you may think that if you like. I do not recall players that the Twins have held back to avoid arbitration. I would cynically say someone out there will say they held bag Vargas for arb. The Twins do have a little caution in promoting pitchers but they generally go with the best player possible. Generally. not always

Glen Perkins says hi.

[Shane Wahl]

Meyer should have replaced Burton in the bullpen a few weeks ago.

[drjim]

Meyer should have replaced Burton in the bullpen a few weeks ago.

 

No he shouldn't have. There is certainly a good argument that he should be in the rotation right now for the Twins, but if he is going to be a starter in the future he needs to work on turning lineups over, not coming in and winging it for a handful of batters. That said, Meyer should be up in September when he nears his innings cap to get his taste, but two extra weeks of bullpen wouldn't be as valuable as turning lineups over for a few more starts.

 

Burton won't be back next season and if the Twins were contending this move would have happened, but the Twins certainly have the luxury of being patient. 

[Mike Sixel]

Or, they could do what the Cards do, and start starters in the pen sometimes (or what the Twins did with Santana). 

 

Either way, he should have been up here already.......imo.

[drjim]

Or, they could do what the Cards do, and start starters in the pen sometimes (or what the Twins did with Santana). 

 

Either way, he should have been up here already.......imo.

 

Not just the Cards, teams have been doing this for decades. Even the Twins - also with Liriano, Baker and others. Meyer is a classic guy to this with, and I still think it happens.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Not just the Cards, teams have been doing this for decades. Even the Twins - also with Liriano, Baker and others. Meyer is a classic guy to this with, and I still think it happens.

Baker was never used out of the bullpen regularly. I seem to think Liriano was the last Twins pitching prospect to get that treatment, and Santana before him. (To be fair, they haven't had a lot of pitching prospects in the last 5 years, and they certainly have not had a full rotation during that time either!)

[adjacent]

Baker was never used out of the bullpen regularly. I seem to think Liriano was the last Twins pitching prospect to get that treatment, and Santana before him. (To be fair, they haven't had a lot of pitching prospects in the last 5 years, and they certainly have not had a full rotation during that time either!)

Another example of somebody that came as a bullpen arm, before becoming a starter, was Glen Perkins.

[amjgt]

Terry likes to be there in person when each of his pitchers hit their innings limit for the year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Another example of somebody that came as a bullpen arm, before becoming a starter, was Glen Perkins.

Yes, forgot him.  I think he was the last Twins example, and that was 7 years ago.

 

Interesting that the three 21st century examples I can think of now (Santana, Liriano, and Perkins) were all left-handed.  All also came up to relatively full rotations, which should not be a concern for Meyer at the moment.

[jokin]

It sounds like a bigger priority for Terry Ryan than watching Alex Meyer pitch this evening is in finalizing an extension agreement with the Red Wings:

 

 

Wings CEO/COO Naomi Silver and Twins general manager Terry Ryan will make the announcement on the field after the first inning of Monday night's Wings game against the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre RailRiders at Frontier Field.

 

Priorities.  Uggh.

 

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/baseball/minors/2014/08/25/red-wings-twins-extend-affiliation/14577249/

[old nurse]

Glen Perkins says hi.

The grievance was settled between Perkins and the Twins. Perkins was still not eligible for super 2. If after discussions and negotiations Perkins thought he was demoted unfairly he could have filed. He may have had a case, but he did not think he would win or he would have continued his grievance. 1 borderline case in how many years?

[jokin]

Questions about the September call-ups?  I don't think so. Priorities....and "Prepared".

 

 

 

 

 

#MNTwins GM Terry Ryan meets with the Rochester media following tonight's announcement. pic.twitter.com/YVd8K8DhF5

 

 

 

 

[Seth Stohs]

It sounds like a bigger priority for Terry Ryan than watching Alex Meyer pitch this evening is in finalizing an extension agreement with the Red Wings:

 

 

Priorities.  Uggh.

 

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/baseball/minors/2014/08/25/red-wings-twins-extend-affiliation/14577249/

 

Kind of a ridiculous claim. All this discussion was done behind the scenes, and before the game. Pretty sure during the game, Mr. Ryan will be watching Meyer (and other Wings pitchers).  He can't make a trip to Rochester for ONE reason. That's just silly.

[Seth Stohs]

Questions about the September call-ups?  I don't think so. Priorities....and "Prepared".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, can't do that at the same time either. Jeez! 

[TheLeviathan]

The grievance was settled between Perkins and the Twins. Perkins was still not eligible for super 2. If after discussions and negotiations Perkins thought he was demoted unfairly he could have filed. He may have had a case, but he did not think he would win or he would have continued his grievance. 1 borderline case in how many years?

 

I have to find the article, but I posted it awhile back.  He was genuinely upset with that move (and probably rightfully so) but made a conscious decision to put the past in the past and turn over a new leaf with the organization and directly approached Gardy about that in a plea to stay with the club.

 

It worked and he didn't look back.

[jokin]

Yup, can't do that at the same time either. Jeez! 

 

TR, apparently can multi-task, as this press conference was going on even as Meyer was pitching.  

 

FWIW, assuming TR got back up in his box, he got to see Alex Meyer throw well enough tonight, but certainly not great.  6 IP, 2 ER 7 hits 4 K 3 BB.  He's on track to get the win, as the Wings lead 4-2 after 6 innings completed.  The even better good news is that Meyer reached a season high of 105 pitches (66 strikes),and after a visit from Gene Glynn, he was allowed to throw to one of his evening's nemeses tonight, with a man on and two out, and get the final out of the 6th inning, in a 6 pitch battle (5 straight strikes), resulting in a force play to 2nd.  

 

I don't know what grade Meyer will get from TR tonight for being "prepared", but he appeared to battle and fight through 6 innings on a night where he didn't have his best stuff.  Up to 128 innings now on the season, it will be quite interesting what Ryan decides to do with him after his final start for Rochester this weekend.  Stay tuned. 

[drjim]

He pitched fine and certainly is more inspiring than much of what the Twins have thrown out there this season, but I don't believe has pitched in a way that has left the Twins with no choice but to call him up.

 

I want him up for some time in the bullpen but I won't be devastated if they decide to wait.

[Riverbrian]

TR, apparently can multi-task, as this press conference was going on even as Meyer was pitching.  

 

FWIW, assuming TR got back up in his box, he got to see Alex Meyer throw well enough tonight, but certainly not great.  6 IP, 2 ER 7 hits 4 K 3 BB.  He's on track to get the win, as the Wings lead 4-2 after 6 innings completed.  The even better good news is that Meyer reached a season high of 105 pitches (66 strikes),and after a visit from Gene Glynn, he was allowed to throw to one of his evening's nemeses tonight, with a man on and two out, and get the final out of the 6th inning, in a 6 pitch battle (5 straight strikes), resulting in a force play to 2nd.  

 

I don't know what grade Meyer will get from TR tonight for being "prepared", but he appeared to battle and fight through 6 innings on a night where he didn't have his best stuff.  Up to 128 innings now on the season, it will be quite interesting what Ryan decides to do with him after his final start for Rochester this weekend.  Stay tuned.

 

Thanks for the link to the article. The news of a new deal with Rochester is pretty large news. It was probably a couple years ago that the Rochester Democrat was writing that the Red Wings were unsure they wanted to continue with the Twins. If they were to sign a deal with the Mets instead. The Twins could be playing Video game baseball in the PCL in Las Vegas in future years. I think this news is more important than what kind of start Alex Meyer has tonight.

 

Getting a deal done with Rochester would have to be a huge priority for anyone in the GM chair.

[jokin]

Thanks for the link to the article. The news of a new deal with Rochester is pretty large news. It was probably a couple years ago that the Rochester Democrat was writing that the Red Wings were unsure they wanted to continue with the Twins. If they were to sign a deal with the Mets instead. The Twins could be playing Video game baseball in the PCL in Las Vegas in future years. I think this news is more important than what kind of start Alex Meyer has tonight.

 

Getting a deal done with Rochester would have to be a huge priority for anyone in the GM chair.

 

Actually, I'd prefer that the Twins get the Vegas franchise, make Moe Green an offer he can't refuse, and move the AAA club to the Midwest in closer proximity to the Twins Cities.

[jokin]

He pitched fine and certainly is more inspiring than much of what the Twins have thrown out there this season, but I don't believe has pitched in a way that has left the Twins with no choice but to call him up.

 

I want him up for some time in the bullpen but I won't be devastated if they decide to wait.

 

Yup. I was with Gardy all the way back to ST, and bringing up Meyer to throw out of camp and in the 'pen all season.