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  • On Trading Caleb Thielbar and 70s Game Shows


    Hans Birkeland

    The wise know what to do with a closed door. 

    Image courtesy of © Brad Rempel-USA TODAY Sports

    Twins Video

    The Monty Hall problem is a brain teaser loosely based on a segment of the gameshow “Let's Make a Deal.” On the show, there is a game in which a contestant must choose one of three doors that has a prize behind it. After picking a door, the host will open one of the doors that does not contain the prize. The contestant is then asked if they would like to stick with their original door, or switch to the other remaining door. 

    Instinctually, the contestant thinks that this is a 50/50 proposition, but the reality is that when they picked the first door, they had a 33% chance of picking the prize. That doesn’t change simply by virtue of a door being eliminated. Switching doors, by contrast, results in a 66% chance of picking the prize, because there is now more information (an eliminated door) available to the contestant.

    I was thinking of the Monty Hall problem because I was thinking about the Royals (For whatever reason). I was thinking about how they have played Ryan O’Hearn, a lumbering first baseman with a 83 career OPS+, in each of the past five seasons. They’ve also given Brad Keller five shots to prove himself. Heck, they’ve played Adalberto Mondesi in seven. 

    At some point, some team was likely interested in all three of those guys given that the Royals have not contended since 2016, and at the peak of their value, they each could have netted multiple prospects who would project as regulars. 

    Instead, all three have disintegrated in value. Like a door being removed from consideration, we now know that O’Hearn doesn’t come close to hitting enough to make up for his place on the bottom of the defensive spectrum. We know now that Mondesi is injury prone, and even if he wasn’t he doesn’t control the strike zone well enough to be a franchise shortstop. Keller is hittable and also gives up a ton of walks (bad combo).

    It was too late to trade any of these guys years ago. Case in point: Mondesi was traded this offseason, and all the Royals received in return was fungible left-handed reliever, Josh Taylor. The Royals made plenty of bad decisions following their World Series run, but being too precious about their prospects is a big reason they are undergoing a rebuild of their failed rebuild from four years ago. It’s just difficult to build a competitive team on a budget when you fall in love with every hot twenty-game stretch you see.

    If that all seems pretty foolish, it is, although the analytic counterpoint isn’t perfect, either. The knowledge that flipping a well-known player with two to three years of team control is the correct probability play can also have a negative impact on a clubhouse full of human beings. 

    Smart teams can either spend money on free agents to supplement their value trades, or get their players to buy into why they conduct so many trades. The Tampa Bay Rays, for instance, aren’t just successful because they understand the basics of the Monty Hall problem, but because they place such a focus on getting their players to buy into their philosophy. 

    Ryan Thompson, the Rays reliever who made minor headlines detailing the arbitration process in depth from the player’s perspective, is a good example. He lost his arbitration case, but in his extensive Twitter thread, he didn’t opine the experience because the Rays were cutthroat or penny-pinching, he was mad at the arbitrators for not knowing ball and letting the Rays fill their small brains with ideas about how a player should get paid based on the timing of when he gets injured. Through it all, Thompson espoused respect for what the Rays were doing and why they were doing it, praising their communication and transparency in a later MLBtraderumors chat.

    Where do the Twins fall in this regard? In terms of trading Luis Arraez at peak value while signing Carlos Correa, who didn’t cost any prospect capital and is highly skilled at getting his teammates to buy into analytics, they’ve done well since the new year.

    In the recent past, however, they could have traded Jorge Polanco after his 2021 season where he was healthy, hit 33 home runs and played a solid second base. He also would have come with an extremely team-friendly contract. Starting in 2022, he would have been owed thirteen million over two years, with a vesting option for 2024 based on plate appearances and a team option for 2025. Polanco also is a switch hitter who can fake it at shortstop in an emergency.

    Everyone loves Polo, and its hard to find anyone on the Twins I would more like to be at-bat in a clutch situation, but the value he carried going into 2022 was immense. The Dodgers could have inquired knowing they had Gavin Lux to step in at short and were going to lose Corey Seager. The Red Sox would have likely preferred paying Polanco 36M over four years at most, as opposed to paying Trevor Story 140M over six. The price tag could have been, depending on market factors, multiple top 50 global prospects based on Polanco’s age, bat, and contract. Or, he could have commanded a younger prospect in addition to short-term, impact pitching help,

    And now it looks like Polanco’s knees still hurt. That window of excellent trade value could be gone forever, regardless of any 2023 bounce-back. In terms of capital for future trades, the Twins have only five players; Jorge López, Pablo López, Kyle Farmer, Jorge Alcala and Caleb Thielbar, with between two and three years of team control, the usual sweet spot for maximizing trade value. The first three of that group were just acquired via trade, and Alcala is trying to prove he is healthy following elbow surgery. 

    That would leave Thielbar as the best trade candidate on the roster. He’s 36 and had the best hard-hit rate of any reliever in baseball last year. Given his age, he could also fall off a cliff at any moment. Getting value before that happens is what separates the good teams from the Royals, Rockies and the 2011 Twins. Switch the doors.

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    Here's the thing though: is the goal to maximize value or to win games? After 2021, Polanco's value was super high...but the Twins were trying to figure out of they were in a rebuild or rebound situation. And while 2022 didn't go like they wanted, it was mostly injury related and the team was in contention for the division all the way until September before the wheels fell off. It seems unlikely that any return on Polanco would have provided MLB-ready talent, making the roster even thinner and less competitive.

    Thielbar is a 36 year-old reliever, and while he's coming off an excellent season, he's unlikely to bring back value equal to what he's going to provide the twins this season. The bullpen right now is pretty decent, with some solid pieces (Jax, Thielbar) a stud in Duran, and several guys who have question marks/variance (Alcala, Moran, Lopez, Pagan). Dealing Thielbar isn't going to bring back a player who can slot in to the bullpen right now. even with his value as high as it's ever going to be, he's still a 36 year-old reliever and it'd be very surprising to get anything more than a C prospect for him (likely an A-ball pitcher)...and that's the same deal that's going to be available at the trade deadline if he's pitching well and the Twins aren't contending.

    KC's mistakes in not trading were more related to their veterans rather than their prospects, though. they kept Alex Gordon & Whit Merrifield past their sell dates, even after it was clear that the team was in a rebuild. Mondesi had a good half season at age 22...if you're rebuilding you need to keep your young guys to see if you have a core to build around. I'm not sure it was obvious that they should have dealt him at that point. But their bigger mistake was in prospect development and draft evaluation, where they couldn't turn those highly rated/drafted prospects into significant MLB players.

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    10 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

    There aren't any pennants awarded for "most future value acquired".

    Not directly. But if you do that consistently you'll be in a much better position to get them.

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    What makes TB so good at this is that they have great player evaluations. When a players become over-hyped they know it & capitalize on it (and they're able to remove emotion from the equation). IMO KC doesn't have that great player evaluations, they just hope.

    We didn't trade Polanco because he's been vital to the team. He has always bounced back from all physical abuse he has suffered. This time it has taken longer, but hopefully he will be 100% & mash soon. Then being healthy, his value will be up there and the great prospects coming up he'll then be available for trade considerations.

    Now with Thielbar, is he someone who we'd go after to help us compete this year? My answer would be yes. So why would I want to trade him? At this point, we need him, so I'd not trade him unless we have a couple of rookies that can push him out.

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    Easy to critique in hindsight.

    If Polanco didn't have injury issues, he would probably be considered top five 2B in baseball right now.

    Mondesi was very young, what if he turned the corner?

    What if OHearn worked his way into becoming a better defender?

    What if Kubel didn't blow his knee out in the minors?

    We can do this all day.  Bottom line is that teams make decisions based on skill, age, prospects, and money all the time.  Some work, some don't.
     

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    This is one of the more interesting reads on TD. I agree that Thielbar is likely at the peak, but he is left-handed and very tough on lefties. The gamble is a big one. Who replaces him?

    On a side note, what is extremely weird is that in the past week, I have encountered the Monty Hall problem twice. Prior to that, I think once in my entire life....

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    So if I'm reading this correctly, after a pair of division championships, the Twins had a disappointing and poor 2021. And as a result, they should have traded one of their best players, Polanco, coming off the best season of his career, because adding prospects in place of him was going to make the 2022 team better?

    I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. It would be one thing if the Twins were convinced it was time to go in to re-build mode. And we can argue all day long...and have...about the construction of the 2022 team, but it wasn't bad on paper despite some deficiencies. And didn't that team lead the division for over 100 days until injury wrecked it?

    The Twins were not in rebuild mode, therefor they kept Polanco, again, one of their best players. To suggest a crystal ball about future injury or performance prognostication is akin to twiddling thumbs.

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    5 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

    So if I'm reading this correctly, after a pair of division championships, the Twins had a disappointing and poor 2021. And as a result, they should have traded one of their best players, Polanco, coming off the best season of his career, because adding prospects in place of him was going to make the 2022 team better?

    I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. It would be one thing if the Twins were convinced it was time to go in to re-build mode. And we can argue all day long...and have...about the construction of the 2022 team, but it wasn't bad on paper despite some deficiencies. And didn't that team lead the division for over 100 days until injury wrecked it?

    The Twins were not in rebuild mode, therefor they kept Polanco, again, one of their best players. To suggest a crystal ball about future injury or performance prognostication is akin to twiddling thumbs.

    This. TB trades guys when they get expensive.....Polanco isn't expensive. 

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    Definitely wouldn't trade Thielbar. He has succeeded only in the Twins system. The coaches? The bars? The water?? Whatever, he pitches well on this one, single team. What he brings in trade would be nothing compared to his value right here in the pen. The Monty Hall problem is limited to things valued in a very specific context, their estimated retail cash value. Problem is, the problem runs into further confounding factors when things like social microclimates and personal feelings are involved. Last season the trio of Thielbar, Jax and Duran caused the least heartburn of any in the bullpen. Lefty curveball artist, rightie with a nasty slider, then overwhelming velocity, with movement.

    The price is already just fine, thank you. Let's change the channel to a baseball game. 

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    10 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

    This. TB trades guys when they get expensive.....Polanco isn't expensive. 

    While I too disagree about trading Polanco .270 career BA - can’t do it after 33 HR………….but to Tampa Bay, he is expensive!!

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    7 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

    While I too disagree about trading Polanco .270 career BA - can’t do it after 33 HR………….but to Tampa Bay, he is expensive!!

    Brandon Lowe’s contract says you are wrong

    Kevin Keirmaier’s contract says you are wrong

    Wander Franco also has a long contract

    Longoria was traded when it was decline time, not the expense of a good player

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    20 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

    Not directly. But if you do that consistently you'll be in a much better position to get them.

    Agreed, but if you go too far with this strategy, you become the AAA farm team for the Yankees again.

    Trading Thielbar would return very little, keeping Thielbar costs very little. Why reduce the effectiveness of the pen in 2023 for very little return?

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    I love a good metaphor or allegory. Thank you for this article. 

    In your example. The players are Monty Hall and the front office is the contestant

    Monty Hall is the key to the Monty Hall problem. 

    In order for it to work. 

    1. Monte has to know what door the car is behind. 

    2. Monty has to always open a door.

    3. Monty can never open the door you've chosen

    4. Monty can never open a door with the car behind it. 

    Because Monty knows what car the door is behind and because you know that Monty knows. Monty has just increased your odds to 66.7% so yeah switch. 

    In your example: The players are Monty but they don't know if they are a goat or a car, they are all trying to be cars and you are trying to trade Thielbar when he is a car.   

    Contending teams acquire Thielbar

    Non-Contending teams trade Thielbar

    Unless the team acquiring Thielbar is willing to trade a car with more years of control. 

    Regardless... this article gets a 10 from me. If you write more stuff like this... I'm going to read it. 

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    37 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

    I love a good metaphor or allegory. Thank you for this article. 

    In your example. The players are Monty Hall and the front office is the contestant

    Monty Hall is the key to the Monty Hall problem. 

    In order for it to work. 

    1. Monte has to know what door the car is behind. 

    2. Monty has to always open a door.

    3. Monty can never open the door you've chosen

    4. Monty can never open a door with the car behind it. 

    Because Monty knows what car the door is behind and because you know that Monty knows. Monty has just increased your odds to 66.7% so yeah switch. 

    In your example: The players are Monty but they don't know if they are a goat or a car, they are all trying to be cars and you are trying to trade Thielbar when he is a car.   

    Contending teams acquire Thielbar

    Non-Contending teams trade Thielbar

    Unless the team acquiring Thielbar is willing to trade a car with more years of control. 

    Regardless... this article gets a 10 from me. If you write more stuff like this... I'm going to read it. 

    I disagree that they should have traded Polo and should trade Thielbar but, like River, I appreciated the writing and perspective. 

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    22 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

    Here's the thing though: is the goal to maximize value or to win games? 

    Love your response its well thought out and I agree with your assessment. 

    i just want to respond to this opening sentence. The goal of every front office needs to be maximizing value. By doing so... it leads to winning games. 

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    In my opinion... The difference between KC and TB is this... KC has more tolerance for sub-par play and they demonstrate more stubbornness in trying to force it. 

    The Royals will give Ryan O' Hearn who has options continued AB's when struggling while the Rays will give AB's to a Ji-Man Choi who is not struggling. Therefore the Royals struggle and the Rays do not. If O' Hearn was on the Rays... he would have been traded because the Rays know they can always find a Ji-Man Choi because they won't play an O' Hearn and therefore block a Choi. 

    Playing struggling players over and over again is what kills your team. They are not helping the team when in the lineup and they prevent you from finding someone who can help your team because they are in the lineup instead of that someone.     

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    Caleb is just a wonderful story. He is a Minnesota kid. No one has worked harder on himself and his game. So far this spring he looks better than ever. We have no chance at a title without a shutdown bullpen. Caleb will be a key component at the back end for us in my opinion.

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    23 hours ago, DJL44 said:

    There aren't any pennants awarded for "most future value acquired".

    It goes without saying that the current year chances of winning are not enhanced by a trade for “future value”.   However, there are endless examples of trades for future value that made future teams into playoff teams.

    Dansby Swanson was the highest WAR player for Atlanta last year.

    How about last year’s Cleveland team.  5 of Cleveland’s top 7 position players were acquired by trading established players for prospects.  Gimenez produced 6 fWAR.  They also had 4 pitchers that produced more than 2 WAR, and two of them were “future value” trades.   Those players will have an impact on 4-6 years of contending.

    The 2019 Oakland team is another example.  3 of the top 5 position players were acquired as prospects or unproven players.  On the pitching side, Bassit and Montas were acquired as MLB ready prospects.  They had less than 30IP at the MLB level.  I don’t know how to categorize Hendricks.  He was never all that good until 2019.

    Trading for prospects has been instrumental in building many good teams.  

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    54 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

    i just want to respond to this opening sentence. The goal of every front office needs to be maximizing value. By doing so... it leads to winning games. 

    That's why Oakland has won so many World Series recently.

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    25 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

    It goes without saying that the current year chances of winning are not enhanced by a trade for “future value”.   However, there are endless examples of trades for future value that made future teams into playoff teams.

    Dansby Swanson was the highest WAR player for Atlanta last year.

    And now he's gone. By your logic they should have traded him last year for future value rather than using him to win 101 games.

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    2 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

    That's why Oakland has won so many World Series recently.

    Oakland has reached the playoffs 6 out of the last 11 years. Winning Record 7 out of the last 11 years. 

    You lost me immediately when "World Series" became your argument.  

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    12 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

    And now he's gone. By your logic they should have traded him last year for future value rather than using him to win 101 games.

    You are only seeing what you want to see.  He was acquired as "future value"  Did he contribute to winning?  Your logic only holds up if you position it such that EVERY player MUST be traded for value.  I certainly am not saying that every player should universally be traded before reaching free agency.  I am saying that history is crystal clear regarding the role in trading for future value and you are completely ignoring that history to suit your narrative.  The "world series" argument just further illustrates an unwillingness to acknowledge hard facts as does ignoring the Cleveland and Oakland examples.  Here another, the 2021 Rays 100 games.  6 of their 9 top position players were acquired as prospects or unproven MLB players.

    The only thing you are considering is the current year.  That's your purgative as a fan.  For a front office that view would be gross incompetence. 

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    17 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

    Oakland has reached the playoffs 6 out of the last 11 years. Winning Record 7 out of the last 11 years. 

    You lost me immediately when "World Series" became your argument.  

    The Yankees have reached the playoffs 8 of the last 11 years. Winning Record 31 seasons in a row. Guess they're just better at finding future value than Oakland.

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    15 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

    It goes without saying that the current year chances of winning are not enhanced by a trade for “future value”.   However, there are endless examples of trades for future value that made future teams into playoff teams.

    Dansby Swanson was the highest WAR player for Atlanta last year.

    How about last year’s Cleveland team.  5 of Cleveland’s top 7 position players were acquired by trading established players for prospects.  Gimenez produced 6 fWAR.  They also had 4 pitchers that produced more than 2 WAR, and two of them were “future value” trades.   Those players will have an impact on 4-6 years of contending.

    The 2019 Oakland team is another example.  3 of the top 5 position players were acquired as prospects or unproven players.  On the pitching side, Bassit and Montas were acquired as MLB ready prospects.  They had less than 30IP at the MLB level.  I don’t know how to categorize Hendricks.  He was never all that good until 2019.

    Trading for prospects has been instrumental in building many good teams.  

    Which is why the Twins traded Berrios. His value was high, the Twins didn't see him re-signing, and so they moved him. but they waited until not just his value was high but also when they were closing in on decision point for him. 1 1/2 seasons left of team control. they made a similar move on Pressly: high value, closing in on decision point. With Berrios you had rumblings that he wasn't going to sign, with Pressly you probably had the issue of he would have commanded more than the Twins are interested in paying for relievers.

    Polanco is a very different case. After 2021 (his supposed "max value" year), Polanco still had 4 years of team control available at well below market rate. Sure, the Twins could have gotten a lot of value for Polanco if they had put him on the market, but a) would have also lost a lot of present day value, b) assumed a lot more risk, and c) torpedoed opportunities to rebound quickly. If Polanco has a mostly healthy season (and missing a week or two out the gate won't change much about his value) he'd still command a pretty big return with two below market options remaining on his deal in the off-season. It might make sense to deal Polanco, with Royce Lewis returning, Brooks Lee and Ed Julien rising quickly, and Jose Miranda already arrived. But the time to make that move is next offseason, not 2021.

    (and saying they missed the window because he got hurt last year is 20/20 hindsight. Polanco had just come off 3 seasons in a row where he played a full season; presuming he'd get hurt in 2022 isn't the sort of guess you can realistically make)

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    27 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

    Your logic only holds up if you position it such that EVERY player MUST be traded for value. 

    It's actually Riverbrian's argument, not mine.

    Quote

    The goal of every front office needs to be maximizing value.

    Why would the Twins trade Caleb Thielbar in March for "future value" if they want to win games in 2023? Of course you trade present players for future value in seasons where you failed to compete or never intended to compete (rebuilding years). The Twins are trying to win games NOW.

    If your front office's goal is only to "maximize future value" then you'll perpetually have a full farm system and a mediocre major league team. You'll win the most games per dollar spent but some other team will beat you because they're not trying to run their team on the cheap.

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    13 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

    The Yankees have reached the playoffs 8 of the last 11 years. Winning Record 31 seasons in a row. Guess they're just better at finding future value than Oakland.

    Based on that... yes they are. 

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