Twins & SS Stephen Drew?

[johnnydakota]

Florimon or Drew? Ok in 6 months who is gonna have trade value?

Who is going to have both a positive O-WAR and D-WAR?

Which guy is going to have to bat 9th? As for money left to spend , we have around 48-55 million more avalible If Jim Pohlads 50-52 % is the bench mark.

 

If we are going to sign a pitcher it better be a #2-3 type starter, why up grade your 4th or 5 spot?, when you already have 5 pitchers who are 4s and 5s, get the everyday player who is a big upgrade over the player he is replacing...C,3rd,SS,O.F.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'm torn here. Drew is clearly a massive upgrade to Florimon. He's at a position of need, and there's nothing in the system that is going to present itself as an upgrade in the near term (sorry, not that high on Santana). The money I don't think should be the issue, and he can hold down the fort for 3 years until a guy like Polcanco is ready.

 

The draft pick in my opinion is a big deal. I'll admit that I'm not a fan of who the Twins have traditionally taken with that second round pick, but in terms of getting major leaguers out of the draft, the first couple picks are where it's going to happen. That pick can still get a high ceiling HS guy as it will come with a 7 figure bonus. I don't think it's a good idea to compare who the Twins have taken here of late, as you can look at every draft and find talent that was drafted at or after this position... The pick is a big deal.

 

Overall, I'd probably prefer this signing over Arroyo, but I'm not going to be disappointed if they don't do it. I can see both sides of this. Probably the biggest thing I woudl do is see what SS are going to be free agents next year or the year after. If there's a better option available, I'd think long and hard about going after one at that time.

[Riverbrian]

Florimon or Drew? Ok in 6 months who is gonna have trade value?

 

Jose Iglesias is a light hitting defensive superstar. He may have hit .300 last year but that wasn't anything expected by the scouts. He is still considered to be a light hitting defensive superstar.

 

To acquire him from the Red Sox... He cost the Tigers Avisail Garcia... And the White Sox Jake Peavy.

 

Pedro Florimon is 4 years older but they both have similar service time and will be arbitration eligible around the same time.

 

Pedro Florimon is also a defensive superstar.

 

Now Big If... But... If... Florimon has a year at the plate in the majors like he did in 2011 at AA (Which isn't out of the question).

 

Pedro is Arb-eligible in 2016... His trade value will skyrocket.

 

On the other hand Stephen Drew's trade value at 14 million a year is a big ?

 

It should also be noted that Stephen Drew at 7 million per was traded to Oakland for a 17th Round Infielder out of Canisius.

 

So to answer your question... I'm going with Pedro Florimon.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The more I think about it, the more I want Drew. Shortstop is one of the only positions where the Twins have virtually no MiLB talent that is projectable.

 

You can make the argument that the Twins shouldn't pick up an OF because of Arcia, Hicks, and Buxton.

 

You can make the argument that the Twins shouldn't pick up a 3B because the ManBeastChild is coming.

 

You can make the argument that the Twins shouldn't pick up a C because of Pinto.

 

But SS, not so much. There's Florimon, a defensive specialist... And then Santana, who hasn't exactly lit the world on fire. He's a marginal prospect but not a guy you're going to build a franchise around. He hasn't posted an OPS of .750 since the Dominican Summer League in 2008.

 

Outside of starting pitching, SS is the one position where the Twins can put a guy for 2-4 years and not have to worry about him blocking anyone. Given their payroll flexibility, this makes a hell of a lot of sense.

[amjgt]

Perfect 3 year stopgap to Trea Turner

[Mike Sixel]

The guys on the Fangraphs chat last night are not in love with Drew.....

[Brandon]

Both the Mets and Redsox want to only offer a 2 year per mlbtraderumors so a 3 year offer should do the trick. I bet even at a lower AAV like 11 or 12 million per season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The guys on the Fangraphs chat last night are not in love with Drew.....

 

I'm not really in love with Drew, either... But given the available SS options every year, it's usually slim pickings. Sometimes, you just have to take what you can get.

[TheLeviathan]

I just wish the guy didnt have a strong history of injuries and a soft attitude about them. That's the biggest drawback to me.

[Boom Boom]

I just wish the guy didnt have a strong history of injuries and a soft attitude about them. That's the biggest drawback to me.

 

JJ Hardy had the same rap on him, and now he's the love we lost.

[TheLeviathan]

JJ Hardy had the same rap on him, and now he's the love we lost.

 

here he had that issue, but the Twins painted him that way. It wasn't an issue before coming here. With Drew a former team has publicly accused him of milking an injury. It gives me pause about investing in him.

[Boom Boom]

here he had that issue, but the Twins painted him that way. It wasn't an issue before coming here. With Drew a former team has publicly accused him of milking an injury. It gives me pause about investing in him.

 

Actually he had the same reputation when he was with the Brewers.

[TheLeviathan]

Actually he had the same reputation when he was with the Brewers.

 

Source? My understanding was that he was too streaky and was sent to their minors. Never remember anything about him being soft.

[Boom Boom]

Source? My understanding was that he was too streaky and was sent to their minors. Never remember anything about him being soft.

 

Brewers fans that I've spoken to around the time of the Hardy-Gomez trade. You don't have to take my word for it.

[Riverbrian]

Alcedes Escobar was ready to be promoted to Milwaukee. They didn't need or want Hardy.

 

JJ had just hit .229 and was sent down during a horrible 2009 and then...

 

The Twins gave up 4 years of control of Carlos Gomez to acquire him. Only to ship him off Hardy a year later.

 

I still shake my head... I hated the trade of Gomez then and I hate it more now.

[TheLeviathan]

Brewers fans that I've spoken to around the time of the Hardy-Gomez trade. You don't have to take my word for it.

 

I certainly don't. I lived in northern Illinois during his run there and followed the Brewers and never herd anything of the sort. His issues were purely performance. He just completely fell off a cliff in terms of performance and many of his peripherals were declining. Couple that with Alcides Escobar arriving soon and tht was their reasoning. He'll, the guy had consecutive 600 PA seasons before the year they demoted him. (Which fangraphs speculates was done for service time issues)

 

So, yeah, that doesn't hold water.

[Jdosen]

As a left-handed hitter who draws a significant amount of offensive value from his (relative) power (career .329 OBP compared to a career .435 SLG), I don't think the Twins and Target Field are an optimal fit for him. I can't see myself being too upset if the Twins were to sign him, as he is a good player, but I think it would be more prudent of the Twins to take the money it would cost to sign him and go after another starting pitcher, while letting Florimon provide similar value (albeit in a different manner) at a fraction of the cost.

[MWLFan]

I live in Wisconsin and JJ was under appreciated by the Brewers and the fan base as a whole. I attend quite a few Brewers games and JJ was thought of as a underacheiver and not a intergal part of the future for the Crew once his stats dipped. I don't think of him as being thought of as soft, but not a gamer or they kind of guy that gave 100%. He had some small injuries, some of which he played through, and also that played into that thought pattern among the patrons of the Miller Mausoleum. Was it a fair assesment, no. But fans are not tasked to be fair. And Escobar was ready as has been stated before, so out with old and in with the shiny new SS. What the FO opinion of him, I am not sure. But I think they felt Escobar was the future and not JJ.

[Major League Ready]

Jose Iglesias is a light hitting defensive superstar. He may have hit .300 last year but that wasn't anything expected by the scouts. He is still considered to be a light hitting defensive superstar.

 

To acquire him from the Red Sox... He cost the Tigers Avisail Garcia... And the White Sox Jake Peavy.

 

Pedro Florimon is 4 years older but they both have similar service time and will be arbitration eligible around the same time.

 

Pedro Florimon is also a defensive superstar.

 

Now Big If... But... If... Florimon has a year at the plate in the majors like he did in 2011 at AA (Which isn't out of the question).

 

Pedro is Arb-eligible in 2016... His trade value will skyrocket.

 

On the other hand Stephen Drew's trade value at 14 million a year is a big ?

 

It should also be noted that Stephen Drew at 7 million per was traded to Oakland for a 17th Round Infielder out of Canisius.

 

So to answer your question... I'm going with Pedro Florimon.

 

I was on the fence with my weight equally distributed until I read this post. I also share DieHardTwinsFan’s opinion on the pick. Yes, we have not landed a great players with similar picks but you can’t just look at our history. There have been many good players drafted in similar positions including Taijuan Walker. He was the 43^rd pick.

 

There are a lot of goods points on this thread in favor and against. I had to think it over for awhile but for me it comes down to objectives. Drew is definitely an upgrade at the moment. He would help getting us back to around 500 but he is not part of the next contender. We would be selling low. Even if we keep Florimon, we prohibit the growth that could provide much greater value. The draft pick also has the potential to be very valuable to future contention. The odds on both are pretty long but given the best case scenario for the alternative is respectability, I think I like the idea of retaining this potential.

 

My vote is wait a year and use the $12M we would have spent on Drew + another 10-12M for a true front of the rotation starter.

[Brandon]

If Florimon regresses a little say to a .550 OPS next year there would be a .150-.200 OPS differential between Drew and Florimon. that is possible as Florimon got worse hitting as the season went on. I do like that he is an elite defender but am concerned about the bat and the bats on the team as a whole. The big drawback for me on Drew is he doesn't help the strikeout problem we have. But I would sign him easily to a 3 year 30-36 million contract as Drew is still a plus defender and we will still have Florimon as a back up.

 

Another option though is to trade for one of Arizona's SS who are available for pitching....Gibson for Didorious...

[josecordoba]

I was on the fence with my weight equally distributed until I read this post. I also share DieHardTwinsFan’s opinion on the pick. Yes, we have not landed a great players with similar picks but you can’t just look at our history. There have been many good players drafted in similar positions including Taijuan Walker. He was the 43^rd pick.

 

There are a lot of goods points on this thread in favor and against. I had to think it over for awhile but for me it comes down to objectives. Drew is definitely an upgrade at the moment. He would help getting us back to around 500 but he is not part of the next contender. We would be selling low. Even if we keep Florimon, we prohibit the growth that could provide much greater value. The draft pick also has the potential to be very valuable to future contention. The odds on both are pretty long but given the best case scenario for the alternative is respectability, I think I like the idea of retaining this potential.

 

My vote is wait a year and use the $12M we would have spent on Drew + another 10-12M for a true front of the rotation starter.

 

 

Perhaps I'm being a blind opitmism on the Twins. But if you sign Drew to a three year deal (2014,2015,2016). When you consider that by Opening Day 2015 the following players will be on the roster (Buxton, Sano, Meyer, and Rosario). This says nothing about potential development from Gibson, Arcia, and Hicks. I'm not even mentioning that the Tigers are probably more likely to decline rather then ascend by 2015. Why should we dismiss that Drew on a three year deal could possibly see us in contention with breaks during two of those years.

[Trevor0333]

Drew isn't a great defender or hitter, he is fairly good at both & 2 way SS are not easy to come by. How much of his power translates to Target Field is a legitimate concern.

 

Giving up a 2nd is definitely something to give pause to. Your giving up a high 2nd for 3 years of a starting SS. 3/27 is a pretty fair contract but I'm guessing it will take more like 3/34. I would surely not go 4 years though.

 

If the choice was Garza or Drew I'd lean Garza. If there's a chance they land both this is a team ready to contend with the Tigers who are due to drop off IMO. Losing Fister will be under rated.

[Target Field of Dreams]

I'd prefer to stash the money this year and go get Hardy next offseason.

[JP3700]

A lot of great thought and insight here. This is my final take on what has been said.

 

I agree that it is a close decision on whether or not to sign Drew. The reasons are because it will cost a draft pick, the money attached to it and also because the Twins window may not start for two to three years. My issue is with the thought that Drew isn't a significant upgrade and that he's not worth the money. If the Twins were a 85-90 win team, this decision would be a slam dunk.

 

On the Florimon to Iglesias comp. It is a fair comp due to the fact that they are both light hitting defensive specialists. The difference is that Iglesias understands that he's a light hitting shortstop. Iglesias puts the ball in play and gets on base. He led the AL with 35 infield hits.

 

My issue with Florimon is his approach at the plate. He's a guy who has 40 power and 60 speed who hits like he has 60 power and 40 speed. What's even more frustrating is that he doesn't change his approach. It could be 0-2 and he's still swinging for the fences. I like home runs as much as the next guy, but I'll trade a few home runs for some on base %.

 

A .278 OBP just doesn't cut it. And when you're striking out 25% of the time, you leave yourself little room for improvement. Can he improve? Sure. But at this stage of his career I don't think it's likely.

[Riverbrian]

 

On the Florimon to Iglesias comp. It is a fair comp due to the fact that they are both light hitting defensive specialists. The difference is that Iglesias understands that he's a light hitting shortstop. Iglesias puts the ball in play and gets on base. He led the AL with 35 infield hits.

 

My issue with Florimon is his approach at the plate. He's a guy who has 40 power and 60 speed who hits like he has 60 power and 40 speed. What's even more frustrating is that he doesn't change his approach. It could be 0-2 and he's still swinging for the fences. I like home runs as much as the next guy, but I'll trade a few home runs for some on base %.

 

A .278 OBP just doesn't cut it. And when you're striking out 25% of the time, you leave yourself little room for improvement. Can he improve? Sure. But at this stage of his career I don't think it's likely.

 

I have a baseball theory that I stubbornly cling to.

 

Basically... I believe that if you have the ability to hit a ball out of the park (Florimon does). And if you have the ability to catch up to 98 MPH Fastball (Florimon can).

 

Then you have the ability to do almost anything with the bat... If you can homer... You can triple in the gap... You can double and of course you can single... You just got to stop chasing crap.

 

It's all between the ears. These guys have refined their swings to easy muscle memory by now. They've hit off the tee thousands of times... They've hit in the cages... They have the finest swing coaches in the world working with them... They've faced batting practice.... They've faced live pitching.

 

Its all up to them... Are they gonna chase the pitch the pitcher wants them to chase or are they gonna go up to the plate with a game plan and execute?

 

The light bulb never turns on with some and the light bulb turns on after a while with others and some hit the big leagues fully lit.

 

Florimon... Is hurting himself at the plate with poor discipline but some youngsters think they have to hit a 5 run homer to stay in the bigs or get to the bigs and they press. The walk isn't sexy and they are afraid of the two strike count.

 

They can get better with age and often do.

[Guest USAFChief]

I have a baseball theory that I stubbornly cling to.

 

Basically... I believe that if you have the ability to hit a ball out of the park (Florimon does). And if you have the ability to catch up to 98 MPH Fastball (Florimon can).

 

Then you have the ability to do almost anything with the bat... If you can homer... You can triple in the gap... You can double and of course you can single... You just got to stop chasing crap.

 

It's all between the ears. These guys have refined their swings to easy muscle memory by now. They've hit off the tee thousands of times... They've hit in the cages... They have the finest swing coaches in the world working with them... They've faced batting practice.... They've faced live pitching.

 

Its all up to them... Are they gonna chase the pitch the pitcher wants them to chase or are they gonna go up to the plate with a game plan and execute?

 

The light bulb never turns on with some and the light bulb turns on after a while with others and some hit the big leagues fully lit.

 

Florimon... Is hurting himself at the plate with poor discipline but some youngsters think they have to hit a 5 run homer to stay in the bigs or get to the bigs and they press. The walk isn't sexy and they are afraid of the two strike count.

 

They can get better with age and often do.

 

its possible, but 27 yr olds with 2900 minor league PAs who haven't OPSd above .700 since A ball don't get much better very often.

[AHSaves]

Which would you rather bet on? Signing Drew to play SS for about 3 years (within budget and projected relevancy return) with lower, but not poor grades on defense but significant offensive upgrades.

 

Or bet on any catcher we sign to upgrade our defense and potentially offensive compared to Pinto?

 

Both positions are needs for the Twins next year and beyond. SS will cost more but they should. Florimon has surprised us but he is not the future. We finally showed we have brought up no top flight pitching, why can't we also admit SS isn't our gig as well? Twins will have to pay.

[johnnydakota]

I think the Twins need to decide if A.Diaz is good enough to play in the majors as a 2 way player, if so save the draft pick, and save the 10 million from Pelfrey and go all in on Diaz for 6-7 years, he will be coming up with the rest of the kids

[Riverbrian]

its possible, but 27 yr olds with 2900 minor league PAs who haven't OPSd above .700 since A ball don't get much better very often.

 

True.. I'm certainly not betting on it and I'm not endorsing Florimon long term until he snows he can.

 

But a lot of SS's don't OPS that high because teams look glove first at the position. If they can hit and need work with the glove... They become 3B, 2B or OF.

 

Tulo's are pretty rare. SS's who hit are expensive... It's why Peralta got paid and It's why Drew is going to cost a ton of money for pretty average stats and frequent health concerns. It's why... Even Defensive studs like Iglasias is worth Peavy... It's why youngsters who are not Top 20 prospects like Gregarious is worth Shin Soo Choo and Bauer... It's why Atlanta wouldn't part with Simmons for Upton or the Rangers wouldn't part with Andrus or Profar for Upton.

 

When you look at the prices paid for a SS. It makes me pause pretty hard when you consider that Drew was given away. Something wasn't right at the time.

 

Florimon's glove is pretty special. I'm fine with him for another year. He has 600 AB's... If the light bulb goes off and just a little hitting gets combined with that glove and arm. Just hitting .250 and .680 OPS would increase his value to scary territory.

 

If the Twins sign Drew... I'll be ok with that as well.

 

I more concerned with the offense that is coming back... Actually playing to expectation.

 

If Drew can inspire the squad and the inspired squad improves as a unit... he will be worth every penny. If he goes into the tank with the rest of the team. It will be a bad 14 million a year contract.

[kab21]

I think one thing needs to be made clear. Florimon shouldn't have a starting job and will be lucky to post an OPS >.600. I also think his popular comp (Iglesias) sees his numbers tumble this year.

 

I really don't have a problem with Drew since the years and dollar amounts are right for the Twins. Drew comes with some risks and isn't a great player but that's why he will sign a reasonable deal. The Twins also completely lack in SS options.

 

I'm surprised Brock is in favor of this considering his dislike of another former Red Sox lefthanded FA that would play half of his games at Target Field.