The team's next manager

[Boom Boom]

Also, Sid Hartman -- leave it to Sid -- made a pretty blunt statement about a month ago that Dave St. Peter wants Molitor to manage (I'm sure that eased the tension in the front office).

 

I didn't read that one. Was it underneath Sid's campaigning for the Twins to bring in Robb Quinlan?

[LaBombo]

The Twins made a big deal about Jim Thome's 600th HR--and he spent very little of his career at Minnesota nor was he "home-grown" ala` Molitor and Winfield for their fetes. My question is why aren't the Twins making a big deal about Gardenhire's 1000th win? My guess is that he is "on the outs" with the FO [those above Ryan]. I combine that with Gardenhire selling his MN home and conclude--he's gone after this September.

Briefly mentioned that in another post. Seems odd that in a season where there's really not much to draw casual fan interest, there's been little in the media coverage or even straight from the Twins. Maybe they're just embarrassed at the prospect of having a guy who only needed 5 wins in 20 games not getting there.

 

Good find on the sale of his house. Read a short business journal story that speculated that the sale had nothing to do with his status as manager but rather that he sold because he had bought a home in Fort Meyers. Of course, that was in April, before another 90 loss campaign.

[Dman]

I don't think the FO blames Gardenhire for the teams 90 loss seasons they blame injuries and a lack of talent. Gardenhire did have a lot of success taking a young Twins team and winning division titles for several years so maybe they think once the system is reloaded he can do that again.

 

He isn't a bad manager as many people have mentioned he likely would be picked up by another team right away. There isn't a divisive club house and the players who have left the Twins who could have burned him only say glowing things about him. Players like Morneau seemed to want to play for him and tried to get a contract done with the Twins so that he could. So I'm not sure that he is as bad as some people seem to think.

 

That being said a fresh pair of eyes and different attitude could be good for the club as well. I just don't think the Twins will get rid of him as they are typically loyal and don't blame him for this mess. The only way Gardenhire goes is if he says no to the new contract.

[old nurse]

Fans go to see the players, not the manager. Fans come out to see special events when you are winning. That would be why they are not making a big deal of it. On the other hand, if it was 2 90+ wins the 2 previous years, they might have done something.

[SweetOne69]

Side question/request: somebody please explain why people even mention Molitor. He has barely coached. He is not currently coaching. IMO if he really wanted the job or any head coaching job he would follow the normal path to get one. Because he is hometown and was a great player are not a legit reasons to consider him.

 

Prior to Gardy being hired, Molitor was the #1 choice and the job was his if he wanted it. But at the time Molitor wanted spend time with his family. Now his kids are grown and he may want to get back involved with the club on a full time basis.

 

It was the same story with Brunansky. Why do you think that he suddenly came back to coach 3 years ago? His kids grew up and moved out so he wanted something to do, so he came back to the Twins and moved up the system as a hitting coach.

[Thrylos]

My question is why aren't the Twins making a big deal about Gardenhire's 1000th win?

 

Because it will be extremely bad form to celebrate someone's career among 3+ 90 loss seasons of the team.

[Jim Crikket]

I started typing out my thoughts on this, but it got rather lengthy and I decided I'd just do a blog post at some point instead.

 

For now, I'll just say Terry Ryan will not be going anywhere until he wants to, but I could see him offering Gardy a 1 year extension and requiring more coaching changes... and I could see Gardy walking away from that and the Twins.

 

I don't see it as at all likely his replacement would come from outside the organization, but there are some interesting possible internal choices.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I am sure that Joe Mauer is really happy that he can't play. I am sure that with symptoms, which he has or otherwise he would be cleared to play, he is a real joy to be around. I bet he even really likes not knowing what the heck is going to happen. Especially after he has seen the career of Morneau post concussion. It has been about three weeks and symptoms come back. I am sure he likes that. The powers that be should have said that Mauer wasn't feeling well. They said irritable. HIPPA violation, fine them.

I think Hosken was writing about the departure from the norm on the part of TR and Gardy. I too find it noteworthy that there's news out of the clubhouse that is unflattering about a player in a more personal way. It's just odd.

 

I don't blame anyone being irritated by Mauers situation. It must be horrifying for Mauer to have lingering side effects so close to a similar side effect story of his friend and former team mate. I can imagine Gardy is not feeling too good about it either, it can't help his situation.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Because it will be extremely bad form to celebrate someone's career among 3+ 90 loss seasons of the team.

There's also no guarantee that he'll get 5 more wins his year.

[Dman]

I started typing out my thoughts on this, but it got rather lengthy and I decided I'd just do a blog post at some point instead.

 

For now, I'll just say Terry Ryan will not be going anywhere until he wants to, but I could see him offering Gardy a 1 year extension and requiring more coaching changes... and I could see Gardy walking away from that and the Twins.

 

I don't see it as at all likely his replacement would come from outside the organization, but there are some interesting possible internal choices.

 

IMHO I see them offering Gardy a three year deal. This team is still gonna be bad in 2014. Maybe not as bad as this year but still bad. 2015 he should have most of his best prospects playing and 2016 is his make or break or season. They would need to give him three years to turn things around to see if the Gardy of old still has the magic.

[Guest USAFChief]

I like the suggestion of Dave Martinez. A lot.

[70charger]

The Twins made a big deal about Jim Thome's 600th HR--and he spent very little of his career at Minnesota nor was he "home-grown" ala` Molitor and Winfield for their fetes. My question is why aren't the Twins making a big deal about Gardenhire's 1000th win? My guess is that he is "on the outs" with the FO [those above Ryan]. I combine that with Gardenhire selling his MN home and conclude--he's gone after this September.

 

Because he might not make it?

 

Thome hit 600 in what? Early August? I think everyone knew that barring injury, he was getting there that year.

[LaBombo]

IMHO I see them offering Gardy a three year deal. This team is still gonna be bad in 2014. Maybe not as bad as this year but still bad. 2015 he should have most of his best prospects playing and 2016 is his make or break or season. They would need to give him three years to turn things around to see if the Gardy of old still has the magic.

You're probably right. But is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

This franchise has one playoff series win in the past 22 years. If they bring back the current manager after his third straight 90 loss season, they will have done it twice in that 22 year span.

 

Two more times than any other team in the league.

 

And the other guy they brought back from that had won two World Series rings.

 

Nobody is saying Gardenhire is a bad manager. He's generally regarded as a good clubhouse peacekeeper and, until the three-year tailspin, had a good win percentage with what was a low/mid-payroll franchise.

 

But he's also had two almost entirely different rosters basically forfeit multiple playoff series, has championed a pitch-to-contact coach who may have been a pyromaniac fire chief in a former life, and has through both words and actions disregarded and mocked "cybermetrics", which have arguably had a greater (positive) effect on the game going back to the DH rule than PED's (negative) effects have had.

[Shane Wahl]

Yeah if Dave Martinez was up for it, clearly.

 

But this is Gardy's team. Somehow. But if a change happens, I GUARANTEE that if Steinbach wants it, he gets it. Guarantee.

 

After that, it's Dougie or Jake. Full stop.

[glunn]

I just read through this thread looking for policy violations. I was in the mood to delete something, and surely there would be at least a few posts in this thread that needed deleting, but you people are all having an intelligent and respectful debate. Thanks for following TD policy.

 

My personal view is that although Gardy has been dealt some poor cards, it's just time to make a change BUT only if the replacement is someone who brings something new and valuable to the table, like Dave Martinez. I would not be happy with anyone from the Twins organization, because I think that other organizations are doing better with less money, such as the Rays and the Athletics, and I think that the Twins could benefit from someone of stature with new ideas who must be listened to by the front office.

[LaBombo]

I just read through this thread looking for policy violations. I was in the mood to delete something, and surely there would be at least a few posts in this thread that needed deleting, but you people are all having an intelligent and respectful debate. Thanks for following TD policy.

.

Thanks for both modding and contributing.

[jokin]

I like the suggestion of Dave Martinez. A lot.

 

Dave Martinez and Rays FO executive, Matt Arnold, in a package deal?

[jokin]

 

 

 

But he's also had two almost entirely different rosters basically forfeit multiple playoff series, has championed a pitch-to-contact coach who may have been a pyromaniac fire chief in a former life, and has through both words and actions disregarded and mocked "cybermetrics", which have arguably had a greater (positive) effect on the game going back to the DH rule than PED's (negative) effects have had.

 

One of the best and most colorful one-paragraph summations of the Gardy era.

 

And I would add, how do you get completely wiped out in multiple playoff series with a multiple Cy Young recipient and MVPs on your roster? Gotta think they should have been worth at least a small handful of individual playoff game wins during that time.

[jokin]

Yeah if Dave Martinez was up for it, clearly.

 

But this is Gardy's team. Somehow. But if a change happens, I GUARANTEE that if Steinbach wants it, he gets it. Guarantee.

 

After that, it's Dougie or Jake. Full stop.

 

Waseca's own Gene Glynn?

[TheLeviathan]

Dave Martinez is nice, I still think I'm in the Molitor camp. I like what he'd bring to this team that still has some of what the core of the team has been for years (strong fundamentals and smart baseball) but also a lot more aggressiveness in attacking the scoreboard.

 

I would, however, like him to fill his bench and coaching staff with outsiders.

[The Wise One]

mocked "cybermetrics", which have arguably had a greater (positive) effect on the game going back to the DH rule than PED's (negative) effects have had.

 

You are very correct on the arguably part of that statement. Metrics can describe the player better, it doesn't improve the play one iota. There are technology gains like trackman and pitch fx that people confuse as part of sabermetrics. That technology can improve the game . It is not a metric. Your statement is not sustainable by a fact.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You are very correct on the arguably part of that statement. Metrics can describe the player better, it doesn't improve the play one iota.

 

When teams are playing better players because of those metrics, it absolutely improves play. Mario Mendoza does not receive 1500 PAs in the 21st century game.

 

Better understanding of the game = better players receiving ABs = better play.

[Guest USAFChief]

I just read through this thread looking for policy violations. I was in the mood to delete something, and surely there would be at least a few posts in this thread that needed deleting, but you people are all having an intelligent and respectful debate. Thanks for following TD policy.

 

My personal view is that although Gardy has been dealt some poor cards, it's just time to make a change BUT only if the replacement is someone who brings something new and valuable to the table, like Dave Martinez. I would not be happy with anyone from the Twins organization, because I think that other organizations are doing better with less money, such as the Rays and the Athletics, and I think that the Twins could benefit from someone of stature with new ideas who must be listened to by the front office.

"You people?"

[The Wise One]

When teams are playing better players because of those metrics, it absolutely improves play. Mario Mendoza does not receive 1500 PAs in the 21st century game.

 

Better understanding of the game = better players receiving ABs = better play.

 

Mendoza was a starter on some bad Mariner teams, otherwise a backup player. You didn't much to tell you he wasn't going to be a star.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Mendoza was a starter on some bad Mariner teams, otherwise a backup player. You didn't much to tell you he wasn't going to be a star.

 

Sabremtrics do not create a baseball star. Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout are stars in every era. The only application of sabrmetrics to star athletes is whether Trout is better than Cabrera, not whether one is a star while the other is not.

 

Where the real gains in sabrmetrics comes is from guys like Mario Mendoza, guys who we now know have zero business being on a Major League roster, much receive 1500 PAs in a career.

 

And you said "metrics do not improve play" and I disagree. They most certainly improve play by filling out rosters with capable baseball players instead of Mario Mendozas. The stars of the game don't change much but everyone around them does.

[jay]

Dave Martinez is nice, I still think I'm in the Molitor camp. I like what he'd bring to this team that still has some of what the core of the team has been for years (strong fundamentals and smart baseball) but also a lot more aggressiveness in attacking the scoreboard.

 

I would, however, like him to fill his bench and coaching staff with outsiders.

 

Yes, please. All of the above.

[jay]

And you said "metrics do not improve play" and I disagree. They most certainly improve play by filling out rosters with capable baseball players instead of Mario Mendozas. The stars of the game don't change much but everyone around them does.

 

I think there's absolutely an argument to be made that metrics do (can?) improve play. Better defensive positioning and better pitching/hitting approaches could be directly attributed to understanding one's abilities via metrics. Some of that might overlap with technology (ie - pitchfx), but they aren't mutually exclusive.

[Thegrin]

I HATE this thread. (Will this get me warned? banned?)

[Mike Sixel]

I have not read the whole thread (sorry....), but I think it is just time for a new voice. Hicks said the clubhouse wasn't fun, Morneau seemed to imply some things about the atmosphere here, and there is clear research in sports that after a decade or so, a coach/manager become less effective.

 

My more specific thoughts:

He must do something right, as he has led winning teams, I don't know what it is, but he does do some things right off the field.

 

On the field.....

pinch runs with 2 outs and a guy on first, taking out a good hitter in a situation where adding a pinch runner is VERY unlikely to help (cybermetrics would help here, btw)

the little things have not been done well here for 3 years or more.....that is one of the few things coaches can control

Refuses to platoon players that need to be platooned, imo

Few young players have come up and gotten better the longer they have been here (Dozier being an obvious exception).....if the coaches aren't making the players better the longer they work with them, how do I judge the coaches?

 

I just think it is time....time for a new voice and approach to the game.

 

I understand why others do not agree, I think you can reach different conclusions from the last three years than I have and still be reasonable.....

[Thegrin]

Spam got better.

Revere got better.

Gomez played the same in Milwaukee until this year.

Casillas was always erratic.

Delmon p*ssed away his career.

Valencia's stats were never great and he got a fair shot at 3rd base. He fielded like a Troll.

Nishioka was ... well, he was Nishioka.

Plouffe has played about like he did in the minors.

Of course we know that the new players this year are failing. but isn't that the fault of the players ?

Can't talk about the pitchers because since the 2010 staff crashed and burned the starters have been a disaster. Everybody knows that. Injuries plays a huge part with that.

 

Gardy does not talk bad about his players in public. We can only guess what he says in private. The Twins still score runs in the late innings when they are far behind, even this rag-tag bunch of hitters. That's a sign that they are still trying. That's a sign that Gardy's leadership still works.