Article: Morneau Trade Pits Head Versus Heart

[amjgt]

The only value being 20 million under budget had was to take advantage of teams that were at, near, or over their budget limits.

 

It's to bad that 20 million number only increased over the course of the year and was not leveraged to improve the future product.

 

Opportunity wasted.

[notoriousgod71]

Ryan is only following ownership wishes if ownership wanted to be more aggressive you can bet the Twins would have signed some better free agents. Were on plan of rebuilding that was done in late 90's and early 2000's. We as fans are in for long rebuild again with earliest we can contend is probably 2018 that's if these young prospects develop as they are being sold to us. The problem with this is that Target Field was sold to public that if they would get this extra revenue they would be able to compete and stay competitive year in year out. What it did made ownership to be leader in Mlb baseball on rate of return year in year out. John is right its business for ownership and appears to be very profitable but it doesn't leave a lot for the fan. I guess this why football commands so much more following in Twin Cities its has its up and downs but it doesn't take years to rebuild like baseball and they are willing to spend money to rebuild if necessary if they miss on draft or player gets hurt.

 

 

Trying to follow the late 90s rebuild model is an awful idea. It brought us a bunch of above average but not great teams. The Twins have not shown the willingness to go for it all... and this is a debate we've had around here and BYTO for the past decade.

 

Sure 90 win teams will look good and exciting after years of 90 losses but there's absolutely no reason to always build for the future and never the present.

 

Note: I'm not saying we should go all in every year, but you have to pick your spots. Shedding pay roll for the sake of shedding pay roll doesn't fly.

[Otto von Ballpark]

For instance, two weeks ago Justin Morneau passed through waivers without being claimed by any team. Waivers is process by which a player is offered to each team, and if any team wants him, they can "claim" him. If they claimed Morneau, they risked the Twins just giving them Morneau and his contract, without any compensation. But nobody claimed Morneau. The risk of being stuck with Morneau's contract outweighed the value they expected to gain on the field, even for those teams chasing an postseason spot.

 

John, you are missing some dynamics at play here:

 

1) The Twins had already made known that they had a fairly high asking price for Morneau, at least as far back as July

 

2) If the Pirates (or whoever) claims Morneau on waivers, they have a limited time to work out a deal

 

3) Given their high starting demands were unlikely to be met, the Twins would likely end up pulling him back from a waiver claim, thus preventing the Pirates from ever acquiring him this season, even if they were willing to pay the salary.

 

It's a bit of a transactional baseball paradox: the Pirates had to pass on claiming Morneau in order to eventually acquire him.

 

I give some credit to TR for creating at least some demand where little probably existed, although the return from the Pirates does not look terribly great.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Also, in regards to eating Morneau's salary: historically the Twins and TR have not sent cash in trades. I guess they did in the AJ trade, but that's about it, I think. So I think it is safe to say the Twins are philosophically opposed to he practice (and generally opposed to paying guys to NOT be on the team, whether by release, injury, etc).

 

But trades involving cash happen all the time, which suggests that teams can and do derive value from paying cash in a deal.

 

That doesn't address this specific trade, nor does it address how much return value it adds, but I am pretty confident the Twins have left some value on the table in exchange for saving some cash over the years in trades.

[Monkeypaws]

It ain't Monopoly money folks. 2 million is enough money to live on comfortably for the rest of one's life. Sure, it's a drop in the bucket of the Pohlad fortune, but you don't just throw money around when you are running a business, and that is the position Ryan finds himself in.

 

Unfortunately, unless the Twins are bought by some oil emir, penny pinching Midwest common sense are the rules the Twins GMs are confined to, regardless of what ownership says. IMHO.

[Rosterman]

We talk about the Twins going over $100 million on payroll, what, when they got the new Target Field push. The honeymoon is over. Already, they must be planning for smaller crowds next season (of course, buy your season ticket package so you can pay outrageous major league baseball prices for a CHANCE to see the All-Star game).

 

I truly wonder what and where TwinsFest will be in 2014 and will anyone care...shades of the summer autograph party.

[Shane Wahl]

It just gets so bizarre sometimes at TD. This is another bizarre thread that started out quite admirably!

 

I remember something about $3 million being the value for a top prospect, I think (this is me paraphrasing Gleeman, so . . .). Paying Justin's salary would mean that the Pirates get him for free in a win-it-all-now move. It is obvious that they would be willing to part with more if that were the case. There are top prospects, strong prospects, average prospects, weak prospects, non-prospects, and players who are bad in the minors. These two are weak-to-non-prospects.

[shs_59]

Quick trade re-cap in recent history:

Scale = 1 to 5 stars.

 

 

 

1. Johan Santana for Gomez, Mulvey, Humber, and Guerra .....1 and a half stars.

2. Matt Garza, Bartlett, Morlan for Delmon Young, Brendon Harris and Jason Pridie ................................................................................. 1 star.

3. Ramos and minor leaguer for Matt Capps . ....2 stars.

4. Gomez for J.J. Hardy ................................ 2 stars.

5. J.J. Hardy for James Hoey and Jacobsen ....... 1/2 a star.

6. F. Liriano for Eduardo Escobar and Pedro Hernandez ....... 1 or 2 stars.

7. Denard Span for Alex Meyer .........................4 stars.

8. Ben Revere for Trevor May and Worley ..........1 1/2 stars.

9. Drew Butera for Miguel Sulbaran ....................4 stars.

10. Justin Morneau for Pressly, and Welker ............. N/A. impcomplete...but leaning 2 stars at best.

 

 

overall grade 18 stars out of a 45 possible stars.

 

= EPIC failure.

[beckmt]

Let's all take a deep breath

1. Mauer after the concussion will never be a full time catcher again, his position will be first base.

2. Morneau was not coming back after 1 and Twins wanted to be sure it was not an option for 10 and 5 rights

3. Money needs to be spent on pitching. Until the Twins pitch better(for some reason they did this weekend) they will be a losing ball club.

4. Ryans plan now is probably not to spend significant money until there is a feeling the up and coming hitters are ready, that will be 2015 at the earliest.

[Sleestax]

Can the possibility be that we turn one or both of these players plus another prospect for Giancarlo Stanton?

[tcordes]

I guess my concern with all of this is what are the Twins truly doing to get better? Next year the fan is right now looking at another 90 loss season - almost no starting pitching, only 2-4 proven major league players in the field (Mauer/Willingham and maybe Dozier, Maybe Arcia). 3B will probably be Sano? Catcher/Rookie? Assume Mauer at 1B? No legit CF?? Arcia is adequate with potential in RF, SS by committee. So really not looking at much of an improvement - so this is getting tiring to the fans. Trading Morneau was the right thing to do but now what? What is going to be done to at least get back to 0.500?

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

"I expected my head and heart would battle about trading Justin Morneau. But I didn't think that my heart would focus more on the future than the past."

 

My head and heart keep repeating two words: Minnesota Marlins.

[diehardtwinsfan]

It was the right choice, even if the return was Welker and Presley. I'm not sure what value Morneau had, he went unclaimed through waivers. Last year I was hoping he would continue his push from last summer and be looking more like his former self. He could have netted a guy like Kingman had that been the case... but he didn't. I like the return (if it's Welker) because both of these guys have succeeded in AAA and have a greater than 0 chance of actually being decent role players for the next wave. Ryan has done a good job assembling bullpen talent, so I'd say there's a reasonable but not great chance that Welker turns into a late inning shut down reliever. Not the best return, but I'm not going to cry over it.

 

I'd also say there's a very reasonable chance that Morneau returns to Minnesota next year as a DH keeping Doumit on the bench much more.

[twinsfaninsaudi]

It's a fair point about the money, but it is probably the case that Pittsburgh didn't want to give up those pitching prospects either way.

[Han Joelo]

The depressing reality is that this is just the way things work. The maligned drew Butera nets a promising young starter and a former MVP nets...Ryan netted a couple of lottery tickets for Justin, albeit scratch tickets. Better than nothing I guess. I too will be rooting for Liriano no hitters and Morneau Mashers the rest of the year!

[Oxtung]

The depressing reality is that this is just the way things work. The maligned drew Butera nets a promising young starter and a former MVP nets...Ryan netted a couple of lottery tickets for Justin, albeit scratch tickets. Better than nothing I guess. I too will be rooting for Liriano no hitters and Morneau Mashers the rest of the year!

 

From Ryan's POV he netted $2 million for a 1 month rental of Morneau, prevented an off season of anguish over Morneau's place in the future plans of the Minnesota Twins, opened AB's for potential replacements and got those scratch off tickets. I can see what he liked about the deal. As a fan I am not pleased.

[Seth Stohs]

Maybe for that $2 million they could have received Jameson Taillon and Gerrit Cole instead.

 

I don't get the outrage. I really don't. We talked about the low value and that there would be little return for Morneau for two months. Then when it happened, we're outraged? I don't get it. They got "nothing" yet could have a 4th OF and part time starter and (potentially/possibly) a 7th inning guy. Both could be on the roster for a couple of years. That sounds like something considering we were expecting to get nothing.

[OldTwinky]

There is not 1 guy on this team with any heart. Morneau was the last man left in the locker room. Now it's down to boring wimpy boys, but that's how Gardy likes it.

[Seth Stohs]

There is not 1 guy on this team with any heart. Morneau was the last man left in the locker room. Now it's down to boring wimpy boys, but that's how Gardy likes it.

 

That's more than a little ridiculous and unfair. I bet there are closer to 25 guys in there with heart, who care, who want to work hard and do well. I won't say all 25, but I know there are a lot of guys who are tough and care.

[ashbury]

I'm with Seth on this. Please don't attack people's manhood ("last man left", "wimpy boys"), individually or as a group. It's not justified and it lacks respect.