Road to 2026 Contention: Clearing the Kody Clemens Bar

[tony&rodney]

For those who are curious, Wallner has never played first base. Larnach played one game at 1B in his life during the summer of 2017 in the Cape Cod League. We can put that thought/wish to bed. 

Both guys are DH only. Ask around and see if anyone wants one of them and is willing to part with anything worth similar value. The guy left is our DH.

Clemens has been playing hard and that is laudable. I hope nobody on this site will miss him when he's gone.

[Riverbrian]

11 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

Actually, my comment was supposed to be a joke based on your writing style in the post I quoted (which I liked, by the way), but I realized that in some ways it was actually a legitimate question, since though you referenced him, you didn't actually analyze him. 

I'm think you're generally on target on where he's been, particularly in your summary statement. When a guy's been DFAed a couple times, fan perception is that they can't be any good. And I wonder if the Clemens name both helps and hinders in fan perception. Some fans probably say, "He's Roger's kid. He might be pretty good so let's give him another chance." And others are saying, "He's the son of a dirtbag -- I hope he fails." 

Rooker is referenced above. I have to imagine fans on Athletics Daily took a while to warm up to him. I'm not suggesting that's what Clemens is going to be, but the similarity is there in terms of finally getting a chance. 

I'm trying real hard to get out of the fan perception business because I don't know what anyone will be. And I believe with every fiber of my being that front offices don't know either.

Still I find myself having to take strong positions where the correct answer is. I don't know. 

Clemens has already been branded. Day one with the team... the majority of our minds were made up. I wasn't happy with his arrival... I was part of it. 19 home runs later... the majority it seems would still shove him out the door. 

I think you are spot on. I'm pretty sure that the fans on Athletics Daily took a while to warm up to Rooker.  

The Oakland front office and manager took a while to warm up to him.

30 year old Seth Brown was the guy they chose over Brent Rooker.

Seth gets hurt and now Kotsay turns to Rooker. Brent goes on an 8 for 17 at the exact moment that Kotsay pointed his finger at him. Brent turns that into 9 home runs before April is over. 1.245 OPS over 67 AB's.

Kotsay couldn't see what Rooker would become... he chose Brown. The Royals couldn't see it, the Padres couldn't see it... The Twins couldn't see it. 

If Rooker doesn't explode out of the gate. If Rooker is just average out of the gate. He probably wouldn't be in baseball right now. May and June were actually down months for Rooker. Below Average for two months after the hot April start. That hot start gave him continued chances through the down months. 

Clemens 2025 is much like Rooker 2023.

Rocco didn't know. They chose Julien and Ty France. After they signed Clemens... Rocco stared at him for two weeks, It took a Buxton and Correa double concussion collision before Rocco had no other choice. Clemens goes 10 for 22 with a couple of dingers and now Clemens is part of the language around here. If Clemens doesn't start 10 for 22. He's the first guy to St. Paul when health starts to return to the club.

Because he was hot at the exact moment Rocco ran out of options and pointed a finger at him. Here he is. A subject to be debated for 2026. 

 

 

[IndianaTwin]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

...Because he was hot at the exact moment Rocco ran out of options and pointed a finger at him. Here he is. A subject to be debated for 2026. 

Speaking of the perception business, don't look now, but Outman has three homers in the last week-plus. If he does that for another 10 games, that should make for interesting TD fodder over the winter. 😀

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, IndianaTwin said:

Speaking of the perception business, don't look now, but Outman has three homers in the last week-plus. If he does that for another 10 games, that should make for interesting TD fodder over the winter. 😀

Yep

I already have Outman etched in stone for a roster spot next year. Not because I'm personally behind him or even believe in him... and that also doesn't mean that I don't believe in him. Once again... I don't know but his power and speed combo could be special. 

The reason I have him etched in stone is because they traded for him knowing that he has no options available next year and will have to be on the 26 man or he goes to the waiver wire. 

The only way the trade makes sense is if they are willing to give him a run in 2026 to try and unlock that potential. They don't acquire him for a couple of months and then toss him to the waiver wire at the end of the season.   

Therefore... Outman will be given the benefit of pre-determination and will be allowed to struggle for awhile.

Out won't need to be the same blistering out of the box that Clemens required.

And of course... he certainly didn't blister out of the box. Some players are given the chance to get it right eventually. Some players don't.  

 

[tony&rodney]

There is a fine line between most of the players at the top levels. The more talented players stick out because they can run, catch, and throw with more skill and have the bat speed to become decent hitters. Baseball will always have room for guys like Brent Rooker but as stated above the opportunity window can be very tight. The Athletics, like the current Twins, had an opening for a bat. Who will run with the opportunity. A team can play one and sometimes two weaker defenders if their bats make up for their fielding deficiencies, but good teams seldom roster numerous DH types. The Twins need speed and gloves that can hit. Outman and Clemens have some skills and some talent.

Offseason skill building and preparation can help a player find a groove where they are ready for an opportunity. James Outman clearly has pop in his bat but the swing and miss is too large to play at this time. Can he address this and make his mark next March? Kody Clemens gets the barrel to the ball quite a bit. His numbers are not acceptable in aggregate. Can he shift to a player who is a consistent tough at bat and run with a chance next March?

The challenge is in meeting a level of success that contributes to winning baseball. There are players looking for that one big chance and then there are touted prospects pushing their way along into conversations. It is a tough job. 

[NYCTK]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm trying real hard to get out of the fan perception business because I don't know what anyone will be. And I believe with every fiber of my being that front offices don't know either.

Still I find myself having to take strong positions where the correct answer is. I don't know. 

Clemens has already been branded. Day one with the team... the majority of our minds were made up. I wasn't happy with his arrival... I was part of it. 19 home runs later... the majority it seems would still shove him out the door. 

I think you are spot on. I'm pretty sure that the fans on Athletics Daily took a while to warm up to Rooker.  

The Oakland front office and manager took a while to warm up to him.

30 year old Seth Brown was the guy they chose over Brent Rooker.

Seth gets hurt and now Kotsay turns to Rooker. Brent goes on an 8 for 17 at the exact moment that Kotsay pointed his finger at him. Brent turns that into 9 home runs before April is over. 1.245 OPS over 67 AB's.

Kotsay couldn't see what Rooker would become... he chose Brown. The Royals couldn't see it, the Padres couldn't see it... The Twins couldn't see it. 

If Rooker doesn't explode out of the gate. If Rooker is just average out of the gate. He probably wouldn't be in baseball right now. May and June were actually down months for Rooker. Below Average for two months after the hot April start. That hot start gave him continued chances through the down months. 

Clemens 2025 is much like Rooker 2023.

Rocco didn't know. They chose Julien and Ty France. After they signed Clemens... Rocco stared at him for two weeks, It took a Buxton and Correa double concussion collision before Rocco had no other choice. Clemens goes 10 for 22 with a couple of dingers and now Clemens is part of the language around here. If Clemens doesn't start 10 for 22. He's the first guy to St. Paul when health starts to return to the club.

Because he was hot at the exact moment Rocco ran out of options and pointed a finger at him. Here he is. A subject to be debated for 2026. 

 

 

Wait a minute, aren't you the one obsessed with Pre-Arb players and making sure these jobs go to internal options? Why are you suddenly changing your tune for a nepo baby replacement level player? 

Kody Clemens is the EXACT type of player you should hate. He's an old, external, replacement level player, at best, and his roster spot should probably be used developing a young player, not hoping baseball is genetic and that three weeks of excellent play are somehow more indicative of his talent than the entirety of the rest of his career?

 

[USAFChief]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm trying real hard to get out of the fan perception business because I don't know what anyone will be. And I believe with every fiber of my being that front offices don't know either.

Still I find myself having to take strong positions where the correct answer is. I don't know. 

Clemens has already been branded. Day one with the team... the majority of our minds were made up. I wasn't happy with his arrival... I was part of it. 19 home runs later... the majority it seems would still shove him out the door. 

I think you are spot on. I'm pretty sure that the fans on Athletics Daily took a while to warm up to Rooker.  

The Oakland front office and manager took a while to warm up to him.

30 year old Seth Brown was the guy they chose over Brent Rooker.

Seth gets hurt and now Kotsay turns to Rooker. Brent goes on an 8 for 17 at the exact moment that Kotsay pointed his finger at him. Brent turns that into 9 home runs before April is over. 1.245 OPS over 67 AB's.

Kotsay couldn't see what Rooker would become... he chose Brown. The Royals couldn't see it, the Padres couldn't see it... The Twins couldn't see it. 

If Rooker doesn't explode out of the gate. If Rooker is just average out of the gate. He probably wouldn't be in baseball right now. May and June were actually down months for Rooker. Below Average for two months after the hot April start. That hot start gave him continued chances through the down months. 

Clemens 2025 is much like Rooker 2023.

Rocco didn't know. They chose Julien and Ty France. After they signed Clemens... Rocco stared at him for two weeks, It took a Buxton and Correa double concussion collision before Rocco had no other choice. Clemens goes 10 for 22 with a couple of dingers and now Clemens is part of the language around here. If Clemens doesn't start 10 for 22. He's the first guy to St. Paul when health starts to return to the club.

Because he was hot at the exact moment Rocco ran out of options and pointed a finger at him. Here he is. A subject to be debated for 2026. 

 

 

Clemens starting represents a massive failure. He's not someone who will contribute to a winning MLB team. He is exactly who losing teams settle for. 

There's no "perception" issue here, or guessing. Clemens didnt start playing baseball this summer. There's history.

An exception or two simply prove the rule.

 

[Riverbrian]

4 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Clemens starting represents a massive failure. He's not someone who will contribute to a winning MLB team. He is exactly who losing teams settle for. 

There's no "perception" issue here, or guessing. Clemens didnt start playing baseball this summer. There's history.

An exception or two simply prove the rule.

 

Could be. I don't have the clairvoyance to take a strong position either way. 

My whole conversation in this thread started with... "if we can find 13 players better". Meaning what Clemens has provided us in 2025 in 2026. It's a good bar to clear. 

My main position is this on Clemens. Right now... We have a lot worse. His 19 Dingers is nothing to sneeze at.  

[Riverbrian]

20 hours ago, ashbury said:

The Cody Klemens Bar is an interesting metric, but not an especially useful one.  The bar we should be setting is the Byron Buxton Bar.  Right now the Brewers have 10 batters who have 100+ PA in the second half.  Of those, 6 have an OPS above Buxton's .808 second half.

It's necessary but not sufficient to discard the sub-replacement level players.   Don't just put mediocrities in their place.  We need difference makers.

IMO we're a long, long way from that in September 2025.   But show us differently, Front Office; sorry if that's too much pressure, seeing as you've had only 9 years to prepare for this off-season.

I've been meaning to get to this. It's a great post. 

I agree... that's the metric... The Buxton bar is where we want to be.

Hopefully the Twins can get there some day in the future and hope it doesn't take too long. 

Forgive me a moment as I bring up another sport. 

In Hockey... we all want to score goals but before you do... You gotta clear the puck out of your defensive zone.  

Right now with the Twins. The puck is deep in the defensive zone and they got to figure out how to clear the zone. It's hard to score from 195 feet out.

So... the Clemens bar is fine with me for now. For now. 

The Brewers are tough to beat because they are tough to beat up and down the lineup. They have been working toward this for a long time. The Twins just wiped the slate clean. 

 

 

[karcherd]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Could be. I don't have the clairvoyance to take a strong position either way. 

My whole conversation in this thread started with... "if we can find 13 players better". Meaning what Clemens has provided us in 2025 in 2026. It's a good bar to clear. 

My main position is this on Clemens. Right now... We have a lot worse. His 19 Dingers is nothing to sneeze at.  

A good team will have a player that gets 19 dingers and also give consistent and competitive AB's and will play above average defense with the number of AB's given to Clemens.  Clemens has basically had one good month and some good moments the other four months.

This is why having him on the roster being used as a regular is a massive failure.  Good teams raise the bar not lower it.

 

[MGX]

Fielding run value for RF - 24 players have more than 500 innings in RF

Matt Wallner -2 ranked 14th out of 24 - wOBA .335

Nick Castellanos -13 - wOBA .303
Juan Soto -11 - wOBA .390
Teoscar Hernandez -9 - wOBA .331
Ronald Acuna -8 - wOBA .388
Jordan Walker -5 - wOBA .257
Josh Lowe -4 - wOBA .296
Bryan Reynolds -3 - wOBA .311
Dominic Canzone -4 - wOBA .342
Nolan Jones -2 - wOBA .272
Mike Tauchman -1 - wOBA .332

2 players at 0
11 players with a positive rating

Based on some of the comments we should be seeing the Mets, Dodgers & Braves restricting Soto, T Hernandez & Acuna to DH only.

[Riverbrian]

57 minutes ago, karcherd said:

A good team will have a player that gets 19 dingers and also give consistent and competitive AB's and will play above average defense with the number of AB's given to Clemens.  Clemens has basically had one good month and some good moments the other four months.

This is why having him on the roster being used as a regular is a massive failure.  Good teams raise the bar not lower it.

 

First off 19 homers in 307 AB's is 31 Home Runs over 502 AB's. The number of AB's is important in a counting stat like that. 

I understand what you are saying and forgive me but I believe I've covered everything you are saying during the course of this thread and I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, Chief or anyone. 

I stated in my first post that I was against the Clemens acquisition back in April and with hindsight in my pocket... If I could go back in time... I would still be against it. I'm serious when I say that... no matter how conflicted I may sound as I defend a player that I'm not sure about at all. 

What I mean by that is this: The fact that we had more faith in trying Clemens than faith in what they were developing in their own backyard is why I was against it and would still be against it. 

Both you and Chief are using the phrase "Massive Failure". I agree that is a massive failure. No argument from me. 

Now that he is here and from I've seen this year and how he compares with what I've seen from his teammates this year... as we are looking at a lot of lottery balls with the Twins logo on it. When I say Clemens is a good bar to clear... That's all about raising the bar not lowering it. 13 players better than Clemens means Clemens is no longer necessary and if we have 13 players clearing that 2025 bar. Things will be decent... maybe not earth shaking but better than it is right now. 

Right now... we are not there. If you look at the 26 man roster... before we target Clemens for disposal. Before we talk about trading Larnach because this left handed corner outfield below average defense log jam that has everyone concerned. 

Gasper, Julien, Fitzgerald and McCusker need to be replaced first. Is it Pereda replacing Gasper... Maybe we can add him to the list and make it 5 players.

Lewis and Lee I'm sure will be back next year as well they should... they will get plenty of opportunity as well they should... but both Lewis and Lee didn't clear the Clemens bar in 2025.

So...take those 5 off the roster for 2026 (one of them is September call up)... Now lets stab Clemens in the head and toss him aside. Let's trade Larnach... Some want Wallner gone. That's 6 gone... 7 with Wallner gone. Outman... add Outman... Many people want him out. 

Buxton, Martin, Lewis, Lee, Keaschall and Jeffers is all we have left to work with. 

That's it... We are starting 2026 with Buxton, Martin, Lewis, Lee, Keaschall and Jeffers. 

All I'm saying is this: Larnach is not the problem... Larnach is not where you start when the cleanup begins. Clemens is not the big problem. Getting yourself in a situation where needing Clemens has always been the problem. If we can get 13 players better than Clemens and no longer need him...  things will be better. Maybe even competitive. 

Then we can work on Ash's plan... Let's find 7 or 8 player clearing the Buxton bar. Like Milwaukee has. 

 

 

[karcherd]

16 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

First off 19 homers in 307 AB's. The number of AB's is important.

I understand what you are saying and forgive me but I believe I've covered everything you are saying during the course of this thread and I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, Chief or anyone. 

I stated in my first post that I was against the Clemens acquisition back in April and with hindsight in my pocket... If I could go back in time... I would still be against it. I'm serious when I say that... no matter how conflicted I may sound as I defend a player that I'm not sure about at all. 

What I mean by that is this: The fact that we had more faith in trying Clemens than faith in what they were developing in their own backyard is why I was against it and would still be against it. 

Both you and Chief are using the phrase "Massive Failure". I agree that is a massive failure. No argument from me. 

Now that he is here and from I've seen this year and how he compares with what I've seen from his teammates this year... as we are looking at a lottery balls with the Twins logo on it. When I say Clemens is a good bar to clear... That's all about raising the bar not lowering it. 13 players better than Clemens means Clemens is no longer necessary and if we have 13 players clearing that 2025 bar. Things will be decent... maybe not earth shaking but better that it is right now. 

Right now... we are not there. If you look at the 26 man roster... before we target Clemens for disposal. Before we talk about trading Larnach because this left handed corner outfield below average defense log jam that has everyone concerned about. 

Gasper, Julien, Fitzgerald and McCusker need to be replaced first. Is it Pereda replacing Gasper... Maybe we can add him to the list and make it 5 players. Lewis and Lee I'm sure will be back next year as well they should... they will get plenty of opportunity as well they should... but both Lewis and Lee didn't clear the Clemens bar in 2025.

So...take those 5 of the roster for 2026 (one of them is September call up)... Now lets stab Clemens in the head and toss him aside. Let's trade Larnach... Some want Wallner gone. That's 6 and now 7 gone. Outman... add Outman... Many people want him out. 

Buxton, Martin, Lewis, Lee, Keaschall and Jeffers is all we have left to work with. 

We are starting 2026 with Buxton, Marin, Lewis, Lee, Keaschall and Jeffers. 

All I'm saying is this: Larnach is not the problem... Larnach is not where you start when the cleanup begins. Clemens is not the big problem. Getting yourself in a situation where needing Clemens has always been the problem. If we can get 13 players better than Clemens and no longer need him...  things will be better. Maybe even competitive. 

Then we can work on Ash's plan... Let's find 7 or 8 player clearing the Buxton bar. Like Milwaukee has. 

 

 

I want 13 position players that can contribute to a winning team.  That is the bar to me you should be shooting for regardless of stats.  Look at the 40 man roster and see who can contribute and move on from the others who can't or put in AAA for depth.  And if the number needed to come from free agency is too high or too expensive than put in the kids and let them develop, at least there is a plan to get there.  But stop signing the retreads because Rocco will continue to play them regardless of other options and they don't make us a better team.  

I want to get off this treadmill where we are just running in place, either take a step back or get the talent in here to move forward.  

[Riverbrian]

22 minutes ago, karcherd said:

I want 13 position players that can contribute to a winning team.  That is the bar to me you should be shooting for regardless of stats.  Look at the 40 man roster and see who can contribute and move on from the others who can't or put in AAA for depth.  And if the number needed to come from free agency is too high or too expensive than put in the kids and let them develop, at least there is a plan to get there.  But stop signing the retreads because Rocco will continue to play them regardless of other options and they don't make us a better team.  

I want to get off this treadmill where we are just running in place, either take a step back or get the talent in here to move forward.  

That's my same bar. I've probably typed the words "I want 13 players who can play" about a thousand times on this website.

Got some significant pushback over it as well.  

In regards to Clemens... again... I'm not overly passionate about him. Just saying... right now... he's not the place to start and if we find 13 players who are better than what he provided this year... we would be in pretty decent shape going forward. 

This discussion branched off a couple of different directions. When it got into the Max Muncy, Justin Turner... I'm agreeing with old nurse. Ultimately... I'm saying... there are success stories.

I don't know what Clemens will become if he continues to play into 2026. We got three years of control... He's not a one year rental like many of the players I actually complain about specifically. If it works out... whatever he learns, figures out will be to the Twins benefit in 2027 and not his future team. 

If it doesn't work out. Player X from AAA should be able to push him out the door. The problem is... We don't have a Player X. We got at least 4 guys that we have to dispose of and replace first. 

 

[karcherd]

11 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

That's my same bar. I've probably typed the words "I want 13 players who can play" about a thousand times on this website.

Got some significant pushback over it as well.  

In regards to Clemens... again... I'm not overly passionate about him. Just saying... right now... he's not the place to start and if we find 13 players who are better than what he provided this year... we would be in pretty decent shape going forward. 

This discussion branched off a couple of different directions. When it got into the Max Muncy, Justin Turner... I'm agreeing with old nurse. Ultimately... I'm saying... there are success stories.

I don't know what Clemens will become if he continues to play into 2026. We got three years of control... He's not a one year rental like many of the players I actually complain about specifically. If it works out... whatever he learns, figures out will be to the Twins benefit in 2027 and not his future team. 

If it doesn't work out. Player X from AAA should be able to push him out the door. The problem is... We don't have a Player X. We got at least 4 guys that we have to dispose of and replace first. 

 

This is the point, Clemens should not be among the top 13 players in any initial list.  We know what he can do and at best he should be the 26th man on the bench.  Everyone is excited because of one good month and overlooking the many times he has looked unplayable.  If this is the production expected, bring up a youngster and see what they can do.  It should not be a lock just because of who is on the roster, You need to find  a way either to find someone better or someone younger with more potential upside.  Get creative with trades to bring in better players but stop settling for players like Clemens this is what is so frustrating.

 

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Clemens is not the big problem. 

When Clemens is not the big problem....

... then you do have a big problem.

I have no doubt that Kody Clemens could be a contributing player to a World Series winning team - probably as the next to last man on the bench but still seeing enough playing time to count.  There are tons of players like that.  Kiké Hernández for the Dodgers last year, say.  Sometimes they have a career year, otherwise they don't lead the way but they don't kill you either - as long as you don't give them starters' minutes.

I think that's the difference in what you and I are saying.  You have in mind a nice orderly process: replace the 26th best player with someone better, and many if not most players move down in rank.  Now repeat with the new 26th player.

For me, if we forget about Clemens being some kind of important bar for measurement, then it doesn't matter if we accidentally replace the 21st best player too soon.  The order isn't that important.  There's a lot of players needing replacement (or rapid improvement) - if the goal is an actual contender.

Clemens is a red herring for discussion.

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, karcherd said:

This is the point, Clemens should not be among the top 13 players in any initial list.  We know what he can do and at best he should be the 26th man on the bench.  Everyone is excited because of one good month and overlooking the many times he has looked unplayable.  If this is the production expected, bring up a youngster and see what they can do.  It should not be a lock just because of who is on the roster, You need to find  a way either to find someone better or someone younger with more potential upside.  Get creative with trades to bring in better players but stop settling for players like Clemens this is what is so frustrating.

 

Yeah... I'm really not disagreeing with you. But, if we have 13 players on the roster next year who OPS over .749 (Yeah I know there are other stats). That would be a pretty formidable lineup. It's a good bar to clear and if done... we won't need Clemens. 

The need for Clemens is the problem. Clemens isn't the problem... It's the need for Clemens. 

I believe the Twins put themselves in this position and now they got to get themselves out of it because  they have failed in terms of development.  

So how is that done? I don't have the answer for that.

At bare minimum (in my opinion of course)... at bare minimum we probably need a good young 1B and a good young infielder who can play a decent SS at bare minimum and then we will need the replacement for Clemens... Infield... Utility type guy. 

The only player that we can trade to get that type of return is probably Joe Ryan and your starting pitching staff has weakened significantly. 

Sabato or Julien at 1B in 2026? Can Eeles play SS? We are most likely looking outside the organization. 

 

[MGX]

In 109 games & 350 PA's Clemens has produced 1.4 WAR. I can't imagine any team in MLB has 13 position players who have produced 1.4 WAR so far this season.

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, ashbury said:

When Clemens is not the big problem....

... then you do have a big problem.

I have no doubt that Kody Clemens could be a contributing player to a World Series winning team - probably as the next to last man on the bench but still seeing enough playing time to count.  There are tons of players like that.  Kiké Hernández for the Dodgers last year, say.  Sometimes they have a career year, otherwise they don't lead the way but they don't kill you either.

I think that's the difference in what you and I are saying.  You have in mind a nice orderly process: replace the 26th best player with someone better, and many if not most players move down in rank.  Now repeat with the new 26th player.

For me, if we forget about Clemens being some kind of bar for measurement, then it doesn't matter if you accidentally replace the 21st best player too soon.  The order isn't that important.  There's a lot of players needing replacement (or rapid improvement) - if the goal is an actual contender.

 

And we do have a big problem.

My mantra is cull from the bottom until the bottom is less bottomly. It doesn't impede growth toward the top but a 26 man roster will be utilized throughout the year and you have to be able to count on your entire roster.  

I'm not advocating an exact order. I'm not saying replace 26 and then replace 25 and then 24. That would be awfully obsessive compulsive. Right now.. I'm saying we got to replace at least 4 or 5 guys before we even get to Clemens. That's a lot. 

I think the possible disagreement that I'm having with most is this: I'm saying Kody wasn't that bad. Others feel much differently.

But... I got to be clear. Clemens is not the key to the return to glory.   

[Major League Ready]

5 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Yep

I already have Outman etched in stone for a roster spot next year. Not because I'm personally behind him or even believe in him... and that also doesn't mean that I don't believe in him. Once again... I don't know but his power and speed combo could be special. 

The reason I have him etched in stone is because they traded for him knowing that he has no options available next year and will have to be on the 26 man or he goes to the waiver wire. 

The only way the trade makes sense is if they are willing to give him a run in 2026 to try and unlock that potential. They don't acquire him for a couple of months and then toss him to the waiver wire at the end of the season.   

Therefore... Outman will be given the benefit of pre-determination and will be allowed to struggle for awhile.

Out won't need to be the same blistering out of the box that Clemens required.

And of course... he certainly didn't blister out of the box. Some players are given the chance to get it right eventually. Some players don't.  

 

Hard to argue with that logic.

[RpR]

1 hour ago, karcherd said:

This is the point, Clemens should not be among the top 13 players in any initial list.  We know what he can do and at best he should be the 26th man on the bench.  Everyone is excited because of one good month and overlooking the many times he has looked unplayable. .

 

This is what should be said:

This is the point, Lewis should not be among the top 13 players in any initial list.  We know what he can do and at best he should be the 26th man on the bench.  Everyone is excited because of one good month and overlooking the many times he has looked unplayable. .

[USAFChief]

This is all academic anyway.

There's no road to 2026 contention. 

 

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

we got to replace at least 4 or 5 guys before we even get to Clemens. That's a lot. 

It is a lot.  That's the crux of the problem.

Modern rosters have 13 position players.  You have nine spots in the batting order to fill each day.  If there are 4 guys worse than Clemens, that's your bench - or if there's 5 then that's your bench plus a starter.  Either way, Clemens is getting starters' minutes.

It's more beneficial to the team to upgrade the starter, than to worry about exactly who among the scrubeenies is cut.

The roster problem is deep, deep, deep, and Kody Clemens has us thinking about the wrong things.

[ashbury]

12 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

This is all academic anyway.

There's no road to 2026 contention. 

That's another good way to say it.

If Kody Freaking Clemens is the difference between a 99-loss team and a 101-loss team, this is not a discussion I even wanted to have in the first place.

[Riverbrian]

56 minutes ago, ashbury said:

It is a lot.  That's the crux of the problem.

Modern rosters have 13 position players.  You have nine spots in the batting order to fill each day.  If there are 4 guys worse than Clemens, that's your bench - or if there's 5 then that's your bench plus a starter.  Either way, Clemens is getting starters' minutes.

It's more beneficial to the team to upgrade the starter, than to worry about exactly who among the scrubeenies is cut.

The roster problem is deep, deep, deep, and Kody Clemens has us thinking about the wrong things.

I used to eat like that when I was younger. I could eat a hot dog in one bite.

I got married and my wife put a stop to that. Now I actually use utensils on most meals. 

One bite at a time. 

[dxpavelka]

I get the angst about all the trades.  However, if done right, the easiest thing to do in terms of building a team is to rebuild a bullpen.  You need a couple of bell cows and some wise decision making in terms of filling in the rest of the spots.  They potentially have the bell cows  if guys like Funderburk, Topa and Sands take a step up.  Mix in couple of guys like Prielipp & Marco Raya and one of the guys they acquired at the deadline, make a wise choice or two in the free agent dead pool and you've got a bullpen.  Of course, on the other hand, another of the easiest things to do in building a team is to screw up a bullpen rebuild.  At least it will be interesting.

[Scott51104]

My appreciation for Clemens grew when one of our pitchers fielded a bunt (or swinging bunt), threw wildly to first, and Clemens, playing second base, caught the errant throw on the fly.