Rays 2, Twins 1: Lineup Mediocrity "Springs" Eternal

[KirbyDome89]

5 hours ago, Dave Overlund said:

Does Manny Margot get into 116 games for any other playoff team with a -0.5 WAR? Austin Martin with 86 games played and a -0.8 WAR? 

If the Twins want to do the super-platoon thing, they need to invest in better players all the way down the roster. Otherwise, you play whatever studs you can afford to keep and ride them until the wheels fall off. 

Add Farmer to the list as well. That's 3 of their top 10 in games played who have a negative WAR on the season. 

We need to redefine the term "depth," on TD.

 

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

52 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I don’t, which makes it weirder you’re so offended that I’m questioning a player who only once has played more than 56% of games in a season. Most guys with that track record of availability would probably be out of the league if they didn’t have his skill sets.

But no one should be allowed to question it or you’ll call them a loser.

What specifically are you questioning? His desire to play the game? That's an objectively stupid question when it comes to Byron Buxton and, again, makes me question how much you've actually followed his career. 

[Aggies7]

49 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

And we care about what they say on ESPN why, exactly?

I mean are they wrong? I’d sure love to have Joe Ryan in the rotation and Carlos and Byron in the lineup everyday 

[Vanimal46]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Have you actually looked at Wallner's minor league numbers against lefties? 2022 in 185 PAs in the high minors he had a .911 OPS. He was .939 against righties. 2023 in 129 PAs in AAA he had an .848 OPS. He was .921 against righties. Not seeing where he showed he was bad at hitting lefties in the minors. In drastically more plate appearances he saw very little drop off in his numbers.

That’s cool I was talking about Larnach since that was the crux. Him getting pinch hit for last game. 

[Vanimal46]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

OK

But if you are going to sit Morneau and Thome so Farmer can play... I need you to promise me that you will never play Farmer against a right handed pitcher with his .649 career OPS against them.  

You have yourself a deal. 

[Aggies7]

24 minutes ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

What specifically are you questioning? His desire to play the game? That's an objectively stupid question when it comes to Byron Buxton and, again, makes me question how much you've actually followed his career. 

I’m questioning why it’s taken so long for him to even start a rehab assignment, was he not working out because there were concerts at TF? That’s what Audra Martin said during a game (I think in San Diego). Am I allowed to do that or will my fan hood be revoked by the gatekeepers at twins daily?

[Vanimal46]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

My response to Rocco would be: They will never be good enough and you are making sure of that by decree.

This sounds like backup QB syndrome. The FO and coaching staff has more data on these players than we ever will as fans. They see them every day. But we know better as fans. Just give the backup QB a chance! What if he’s better than the starter? You might find a Tom Brady once in a blue moon, but 9 out of 10 times you’ll have a Nick Mullens. 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

That’s cool I was talking about Larnach since that was the crux. Him getting pinch hit for last game. 

Well you used the word "them" not "him" or "Larnach" in response to a comment about Larnach and Wallner so I'm not sure why anyone would assume you just meant Larnach. It's far more likely you hadn't actually looked up Wallner's numbers and just assumed he'd been bad in the minors. No harm, no foul.

[Riverbrian]

4 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

You have yourself a deal. 

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

This sounds like backup QB syndrome. The FO and coaching staff has more data on these players than we ever will as fans. They see them every day. But we know better as fans. Just give the backup QB a chance! What if he’s better than the starter? You might find a Tom Brady once in a blue moon, but 9 out of 10 times you’ll have a Nick Mullens. 

Nick Mullens catching strays 😂

[Mike Sixel]

There's a difference between being furstrated, and implying that the players are soft losers who don't care about the team.....big one.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

9 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I’m questioning why it’s taken so long for him to even start a rehab assignment, was he not working out because there were concerts at TF? That’s what Audra Martin said during a game (I think in San Diego). Am I allowed to do that or will my fan hood be revoked by the gatekeepers at twins daily?

Sure thing, man!

Quote

While Byron takes his sweet old time coming back from what I can only assume is the worst hip injury since my grandma fell down the stairs some years ago. I know we aren’t allowed to question injuries but dude come on. Dude hasn’t played for almost 4 weeks at this point and his absence is killing us.

 

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

There's a difference between being furstrated, and implying that the players are soft losers who don't care about the team.....big one.

A soft loser? Oo boy

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

A soft loser? Oo boy

What are you saying, if not that? Read what you wrote.....just above your last reply. What are you saying?

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

Sure thing, man!

 

??? Did Byron miss workouts because of the concerts at target field? 

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

What are you saying, if not that? Read what you wrote.....just above your last reply. What are you saying?

I’m saying it didn’t appear there was very much urgency to get back on the field if green day prevented him from working out. Is that not fair?

[chpettit19]

18 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

This sounds like backup QB syndrome. The FO and coaching staff has more data on these players than we ever will as fans. They see them every day. But we know better as fans. Just give the backup QB a chance! What if he’s better than the starter? You might find a Tom Brady once in a blue moon, but 9 out of 10 times you’ll have a Nick Mullens. 

They do have more info, but they still get it wrong quite frequently. Let's stick to NFL analogies...lots of fans thought drafting Kyle Hamilton would be a smart idea. Kwesi had way more data on the players than we ever would as fans so he picked Lewis Cine instead. How'd that work out? The Eagles took Raegor over some fella named Justin.

This idea that "they have more info so they're right and you're wrong" is ignoring the reality that they're wrong all the time. Colorado has more data than us, how's that helping them build a competitive team? The White Sox have more data, how's that going for them? And here's a dirty little secret, the same discussions we have on here are had in front offices. There are people in the Twins front office who think their platooning is extreme. There were some that thought their data saying they should sign Joey Gallo was wrong. Some who thought trading for Margot would be a mistake. Some who thought 6 million for Farmer was way too much and they should let him walk. It's not as simple as "they're the front office with more data so they're right."

[Craig Arko]

22 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

You have yourself a deal. 

Pinkie swear.

[Riverbrian]

14 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

This sounds like backup QB syndrome. The FO and coaching staff has more data on these players than we ever will as fans. They see them every day. But we know better as fans. Just give the backup QB a chance! What if he’s better than the starter? You might find a Tom Brady once in a blue moon, but 9 out of 10 times you’ll have a Nick Mullens. 

I don't do that thing with the backup QB. I know many do but I don't. 

Although Brock Purdy does requires some explanation and I don't care what sport... nor do I care what profession or industry that we all work in. They all have stories of better talent not getting the chance to be better talent. 

I do do it in baseball and I have no problem doing it in baseball while simultaneously recognizing from the bottom of my heart that the front offices are doing this for a living and have access to more information than I have. The job they do is hard and they are up against very talented front offices that also do this for a living. Nobody is doing this in spare time like I do. No matter what I'm saying... I recognize this... I'm not calling for their heads. But... I believe I have legitimate points worth consideration. 

Every front office makes mistakes... it's not the mistakes they make...they all make them... it's the sticking with the mistake and not moving off the mistake. I don't blame them for signing Gallo... I blame them for staying with Gallo. I don't blame them for losing Nick Anderson but I do blame them for not giving him a chance. Just look at the opening day roster and all of their mistakes are right there for all to see. They thought Julien was the 2B. They thought Castro was a fill in piece... They thought Farmer was worth 6 million. If they can be wrong on Julien this year... they can be wrong on Severino or Kiersay this year. Why was Miranda not on the opening day roster? These are mistakes that all front offices make. I harbor no thought that the front office is perfect. Nor should you. Because all 30 teams make large scale mistakes like this frequently. 

I never started thinking that I knew more but I certainly stopped thinking that they were beyond reproach. 

I understand what the front office is doing with the heavy platooning they are doing. I understand that they have data that probably supports it. I understand the splits historical and small sample and I do believe that left handers clearly struggle against left handers in comparison to the opposite hand. I also know that the Twins do it to a degree much more than the other 29 clubs. 

However... I believe it is a fundamental mistake to do what they are doing to the extreme that they do. I hope they correct it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

This all started because I believe that Vazquez had to pinch hit for Larnach. I don't question the move... they had no choice... I question putting yourself into the position of having to do it.

Because they have starved Larnach from facing lefty's for two years now. September with the game on the line is not the time to say... OK Trevor... need you now... sorry we didn't get you better prepared for this moment. 

I question putting yourself in the position of having to pinch hit a .568 OPS against left handers with the game on the line because you have starved the alternative. 

I question the early pinch hitting that leads to no other alternative in the final innings. I question being forced to pinch hit .568 OPS guy who will have to play 3B in the 10th inning if he is successful tying the game to force a tenth inning. Vazquez at 3B while Lewis moves to the OF in the 10th was the only possible defensive alignment in the 10th if Vazquez would have ripped a single in that pinch hit. I question it being all you have left because it is simply more important to protect left handed hitters from left handed pitchers and protecting them early in the game, therefore burning your bench early. 

I question what happens when Margot and Farmer get hurt on the last day of the season and are not eligible for the playoffs. They are the right handed cover. Who plays against left handers now? Wallner all of a sudden? 

I question how Wallner, Julien, Larnach or Kirilloff break free of the shackles to carve out a career without a Margot or Helman attached to them. I question how Jenkins will be handled when they completely absolutely keep lefties away from lefties and do so more so than all the other 29 teams. 

I question how a team that doesn't play in the free agent market can develop talent with these shackles applied because if you don't play in the free agent market... developing talent is critically necessary.   

I really really really question the throwing the shackles on a young player before they even get started and still developing. I really don't want them dipped in cement this way... especially when they make mistakes as frequently as they make them. I want the players to help them make the decisions with actual performance.  

I question if you are gaining anything from Margot and Farmer if you have to give it right back because they are are facing more right handers than left handers. 

I question the wasting of roster spots on short siders when injuries practically guarantee that you will need those short siders to do something they are not able to do.

I question what the difference is when Margot has to face a righty compared to Wallner facing a lefty. Margot is facing more righties by a large margin.  

I understand why they are doing it. I question if they should be doing it. I think they got the data right... but the application is wrong. 

[Blyleven2011]

8 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Just a question - has Austin Martin ever tried to field fly balls in a stadium with a roof? I wonder if he lost that ball in the ceiling.

And a very good question  !!!!

[Linus]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

I don't do that thing with the backup QB. I know many do but I don't. 

Although Brock Purdy does requires some explanation and I don't care what sport... nor do I care what profession or industry that we all work in. They all have stories of better talent not getting the chance to be better talent. 

I do do it in baseball and I have no problem doing it in baseball while simultaneously recognizing from the bottom of my heart that the front offices are doing this for a living and have access to more information than I have. The job they do is hard and they are up against very talented front offices that also do this for a living. Nobody is doing this in spare time like I do. No matter what I'm saying... I recognize this... I'm not calling for their heads. But... I believe I have legitimate points worth consideration. 

Every front office makes mistakes... it's not the mistakes they make...they all make them... it's the sticking with the mistake and not moving off the mistake. I don't blame them for signing Gallo... I blame them for staying with Gallo. I don't blame them for losing Nick Anderson but I do blame them for not giving him a chance. Just look at the opening day roster and all of their mistakes are right there for all to see. They thought Julien was the 2B. They thought Castro was a fill in piece... They thought Farmer was worth 6 million. If they can be wrong on Julien this year... they can be wrong on Severino or Kiersay this year. Why was Miranda not on the opening day roster? These are mistakes that all front offices make. I harbor no thought that the front office is perfect. Nor should you. Because all 30 teams make large scale mistakes like this frequently. 

I never started thinking that I knew more but I certainly stopped thinking that they were beyond reproach. 

I understand what the front office is doing with the heavy platooning they are doing. I understand that they have data that probably supports it. I understand the splits historical and small sample and I do believe that left handers clearly struggle against left handers in comparison to the opposite hand. I also know that the Twins do it to a degree much more than the other 29 clubs. 

However... I believe it is a fundamental mistake to do what they are doing to the extreme that they do. I hope they correct it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

This all started because I believe that Vazquez had to pinch hit for Larnach. I don't question the move... they had no choice... I question putting yourself into the position of having to do it.

Because they have starved Larnach from facing lefty's for two years now. September with the game on the line is not the time to say... OK Trevor... need you now... sorry we didn't get you better prepared for this moment. 

I question putting yourself in the position of having to pinch hit a .568 OPS against left handers with the game on the line because you have starved the alternative. 

I question the early pinch hitting that leads to no other alternative in the final innings so you are forced to pinch hit .568 OPS guy and if he successful and tying the game of having to play Vazquez at 3B while Lewis moves to the OF in the 10th because that is all you have left. I question it being all you have left because it is simply more important to protect left handed hitters from left handed pitchers.

I question what happens when Margot and Farmer get hurt on the last day of the season and are not eligible for the playoffs when they don't have the right handed cover.  

I question how Wallner, Julien, Larnach or Kirilloff break free of the shackles to carve out a career without a Margot or Helman attached to them. I question how Jenkins will be handled when they completely absolutely keep lefties away from lefties and do so more so than all the other 29 teams. 

I question how a team that doesn't play in the free agent market can develop talent with these shackles applied because if you don't play in the free agent market... developing talent is critically necessary.   

I really really really question the throwing the shackles on a young player before they even get started and still developing. I really don't want them dipped in cement this way... especially when they make mistakes as frequently as they make them. I want the players to help them make the decisions with actual performance.  

I question if you are gaining anything from Margot and Farmer if you have to give it right back because they are are facing more right handers than left handers. 

I question the wasting of roster spots on short siders when injuries practically guarantee that you will need those short siders to do something they are not able to do.

I question what the difference is when Margot has to face a righty compared to Wallner facing a lefty. Margot is facing more righties by a large margin.  

I understand why they are doing it. I question if they should be doing it. I think they got the data right... but the application is wrong. 

Permit me to add on one more factor. If the Twins pinch hitting philosophy was more traditional this problem would largely go away because it would be one at bat late in the game. With the Twins philosophy the “I can only hit lefties” right handed bat ends up playing up to half the game. 

[h2oface]

7 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

So we want to go back to the Gardenhire days of playing Jacque Jones and his .628 OPS against lefties every day?

How does some at bats, like when the hitter is red hot, become every day?

[h2oface]

6 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

So, Larnach & Wallner pinch hit for RH hitters during the game and did nothing……….the pendulum has to swing both ways, can’t cover your eyes when they (LH bats) do nothing at the plate.

So if they have already doubled and homered in the game, and are seeing the ball and killing it, you don't pinch hit for them. But this manager will pinch hit when the hitter is hot. The great cooler. If the hitter is 0-2 with two horrible Ks, you pinch hit. There has to be some actual managing. I don't see it with the religious platoon, especially in the 5th inning.

[h2oface]

4 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Buxton played hurt ALL of 2023. He didn't have a single day of good health.

I would take 15 million for not a single day of good health for 6 months. When it happened to me, it didn't didn't pay very well. I can take a lot of pain. I just wish it would pay more.

[h2oface]

4 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

I’m questioning why it’s taken so long for him to even start a rehab assignment, was he not working out because there were concerts at TF? That’s what Audra Martin said during a game (I think in San Diego). Am I allowed to do that or will my fan hood be revoked by the gatekeepers at twins daily?

I would hope so. You didn't call Buxton any names, and what you were accused of was inferring something you never said. Then the other guy called you names. Several and more than once. And yet, that seems it is allowed. Curious at times. But I would just ignore. There is always the ignored user settings. 

Can I say that I wish I never had to have the game interrupted by Audra's fluff in the stands? All those promos drive me nuts. 😇

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

17 hours ago, h2oface said:

I would hope so. You didn't call Buxton any names, and what you were accused of was inferring something you never said. Then the other guy called you names. Several and more than once. And yet, that seems it is allowed. Curious at times. But I would just ignore. There is always the ignored user settings. 

Can I say that I wish I never had to have the game interrupted by Audra's fluff in the stands? All those promos drive me nuts. 😇

I never called him names, I called out the behavior for what it is. And if you can't tell what was heavily implied by the first comment, I've got some oceanfront property in north dakota you might be interested in.