Vikings Offseason Thread

[Mike Sixel]

CBS sports has a new mock up today, with Penix going 8th to Atlanta.....for those that are sure last night hurt his draft stock.

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Howell, Levis and Ridder all rode the bench.

Which also shows the rookie biding their time learning from the vet isn't the guarantee that anyone would like either.

I mean, not for any meaningful length of time they didn’t. They all had at least one start their first year in the league. Ridder had 4. Levis had 9. I’m saying if Kirk is here for 2 years, I don’t think it would derail any young QB to sit and watch that long, especially if they’re the 4th or so best available 

[nicksaviking]

21 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I mean, not for any meaningful length of time they didn’t. They all had at least one start their first year in the league. Ridder had 4. Levis had 9. I’m saying if Kirk is here for 2 years, I don’t think it would derail any young QB to sit and watch that long, especially if they’re the 4th or so best available 

Two years? So this franchise uses another 1st round pick that won't help this team compete? What would be the point of bringing Kirk back if this team is still just treading water? 

Solitary double digit win seasons every few years is not acceptable. They need to build the team to the point where they are consistently winning 10+ games a season. Isolated one-off decent seasons won't allow the team to have the playoff fortitude to get better and advance. They need to have teams that get there EVERY year so they can get better and build on what they did the prior year. Other franchises are able to do this, but not our Vikings because they continue to slap more duct tape on the bus and pray it holds together for one more season. There is no need for a 40M QB when you finally commit to rebuilding, which this team needs to do.

[Mike Sixel]

31 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I mean, not for any meaningful length of time they didn’t. They all had at least one start their first year in the league. Ridder had 4. Levis had 9. I’m saying if Kirk is here for 2 years, I don’t think it would derail any young QB to sit and watch that long, especially if they’re the 4th or so best available 

The issue is they can't fix the D if they use a first on a QB and sign Kirk...not in the first year surely....so, good luck fixing it in the last year Kirk is here. That's a lot to put on Kirk (and wasting 2 years of the new QB not playing with the great O they have now). I just don't like the idea of using limited capital on 2 QBs, given this D. YMMV, of course. Penix and Nix are older...by the time they play in your system they are 25 and 26. Not sure I'm up for that.

[gunnarthor]

If they sign Kirk, the first round pick should be one of the elite edge rushers. I'd be ok with a second round pick on one of Nix, McCarthy, Sanders, etc, if the FO thinks they can be a NFL QB. I'm not sure the 4-6 rated QBs will be there for our second pick but if we resign Kirk, that's the risk I think we have to take. 

[Aggies7]

42 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

The issue is they can't fix the D if they use a first on a QB and sign Kirk...not in the first year surely....so, good luck fixing it in the last year Kirk is here. That's a lot to put on Kirk (and wasting 2 years of the new QB not playing with the great O they have now). I just don't like the idea of using limited capital on 2 QBs, given this D. YMMV, of course. Penix and Nix are older...by the time they play in your system they are 25 and 26. Not sure I'm up for that.

For as much as we all maligned the defense, especially over the last month or so, they still finished 16th, middle of the pack, in yards allowed. What will it take to make them top 10? With a consistently top 10 offense (with Kirk), the defense doesn’t have to be the 2000 ravens IMO 

[Aggies7]

9 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

If they sign Kirk, the first round pick should be one of the elite edge rushers. I'd be ok with a second round pick on one of Nix, McCarthy, Sanders, etc, if the FO thinks they can be a NFL QB. I'm not sure the 4-6 rated QBs will be there for our second pick but if we resign Kirk, that's the risk I think we have to take. 

Just saw a mock draft from CBS that had them taking Verse from Florida state in the first round. 

[Mike Sixel]

52 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

For as much as we all maligned the defense, especially over the last month or so, they still finished 16th, middle of the pack, in yards allowed. What will it take to make them top 10? With a consistently top 10 offense (with Kirk), the defense doesn’t have to be the 2000 ravens IMO 

They played 3-4 abysmal offenses. When they didn't, they were quite bad. And, Hunter is a FA.....

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

If they sign Kirk, the first round pick should be one of the elite edge rushers. I'd be ok with a second round pick on one of Nix, McCarthy, Sanders, etc, if the FO thinks they can be a NFL QB. I'm not sure the 4-6 rated QBs will be there for our second pick but if we resign Kirk, that's the risk I think we have to take. 

agreed. And, if they really love a QB they can move up back into round 1 if they want. But I'm all in on fixing the team for the coming year and forgoing QB if they sign Kirk (assuming no QB is there late in round or early round 3 to deal from 2025 picks to move up for, which, seems like a good assumption).

[Vanimal46]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

CBS sports has a new mock up today, with Penix going 8th to Atlanta.....for those that are sure last night hurt his draft stock.

It’s all going to depend on his medicals at the scouting combine. Teams will be all in if his report is clean, or off their board entirely if they don’t believe in his twice surgically repaired knee and shoulder. 

[Vanimal46]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

If they sign Kirk, the first round pick should be one of the elite edge rushers. I'd be ok with a second round pick on one of Nix, McCarthy, Sanders, etc, if the FO thinks they can be a NFL QB. I'm not sure the 4-6 rated QBs will be there for our second pick but if we resign Kirk, that's the risk I think we have to take. 

Sanders is most likely staying at Colorado. If I were McCarthy, I’d stay in school too. I really don’t understand the hype behind him. It’s all based on potential, and has nothing to do with actual production in college. 

[Aggies7]

53 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They played 3-4 abysmal offenses. When they didn't, they were quite bad. And, Hunter is a FA.....

They also played some good ones too. 8 games against current playoff teams. I just think the idea that we’re so far away we need to blow it all up and rebuild is a bit overdone. I still think this would have been a playoff team if Kirk doesn’t get hurt. Granted, not a Super Bowl team. But what if the defense gets in to the top 10? I don’t envy the front office this offseason.

[Aggies7]

An article breaking down the discussion:

https://m.startribune.com/vikings-quarterback-kirk-cousins-nfl-draft-minnesota-jim-souhan/600333344/

[Danchat]

8 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Also, Stroud says hi. I don't think for one minute the top 3 QBs this year will sit around for more than a handful of games, if any. 

Not all rookies are alike, depending on their experience and the college they played at, they may or not be ready earlier than others. Most of the top rookies (Williams, Maye, Daniels, Nix, Penix) could be counted on to start Week 1 or on the verge of it. A guy like JJ McCarthy is one I'd like to see a full year on the bench first.

8 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Stroud can say hi after Bryce Young, Sam Howell, Will Levis and Desmond Ridder

Howell and Ridder didn't get a big chance until their second year. There aren't any teams recently waited more than 2 years for a highly drafted QB except for the Packers.

7 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

The Bears are way above the Vikes in cap space and draft capital, and the Lions have A LOT more cap space than MN. I wonder how competitive those two are if they do the right things, and if that effects MN 's decisions on short vs long term thinking (it shouldn't, I think?)?

Frankly, the Vikings are in the worst position in the division talent/cap wise. The Packers and Bears have a ton of flexibility as they took a step back and didn't push money down the road like we did, and the Lions will have room to fix their leaky defense (though I'd be concerned if they lose their OC and even possibly their DC, like the Eagles did last year). The Vikes need to face the music and take a step back instead of patching all of their holes with pricey veterans like I fear they may try to.

[gunnarthor]

13 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Sanders is most likely staying at Colorado. If I were McCarthy, I’d stay in school too. I really don’t understand the hype behind him. It’s all based on potential, and has nothing to do with actual production in college. 

I'm not sure that's true. Admittedly, I'm not a scout but in the Michigan games I've seen, he's got a really good arm. And the scouting reports I've read on him agree. 

My personal feeling, backed by absolutely nothing, is that QBs bust for a few reasons - 

1) addiction issues - can't fix that
2) mental health issues - can't fix that
3) injuries - can't fix that
4) being in the wrong system/bad coaching.

I think #4 is the main problem. Freaks like Peyton Manning and Joe Burrow are going to be good anywhere but normal QBs, even upper level ones, thrive with good coaching and fail with bad coaching (Either being rushed or playing in an offense that doesn't fit them, sometimes both, etc). The one thing I think the Vikings have with KOC is a coach who knows how to coach up a certain type of QB (pocket passer, throws deep, keeps his eyes downfield). I think guys like Dwayne Haskins or Daniel Jones could (or Zach Wilson or Sam Darnold) might have been good NFL QBs in the right system/right amount of seasoning. So if the team thinks, "McCarthy (Nix/Penix) is a perfect fit for us", I'm ok with them drafting him. If it doesn't work, they all get fired anyway. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

We should all realize that a total rebuild is not going to happen.  When Kwesi Kupcakes got the job two years ago, he said it would be a competitive rebuild, not a total rebuild, and his moves reflected that.  He can't now turn around and tell the Wilfs that he failed at doing a competitive rebuild, but they should absolutely trust him with the total rebuild.  Kwesi HAS to try to win next year, which to me makes it less likely the Vikings will draft a QB in round 1 (unless something crazy happens, like one of the top 3 dropping to 11, or the Vikings thinking someone outside the top 3 is actually the best player in the draft).

To that end, I expect the Vikings to either trade back, and look for IOL help, or to get defensive help at 11.  If Kwesi actually drafts well, and brings back Kirk, I feel reasonably confident about being able to compete next year.  I don't have much confidence in both of those things happening, so my guess is that the Vikings finish something like 8-9 or 7-10 next year, Kwesi and KOC are both out, and we finally accept the fact that should have been accepted 3 years ago--a total rebuild is needed.

[nicksaviking]

36 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

We should all realize that a total rebuild is not going to happen.  When Kwesi Kupcakes got the job two years ago, he said it would be a competitive rebuild, not a total rebuild, and his moves reflected that.  He can't now turn around and tell the Wilfs that he failed at doing a competitive rebuild, but they should absolutely trust him with the total rebuild.  Kwesi HAS to try to win next year, which to me makes it less likely the Vikings will draft a QB in round 1 (unless something crazy happens, like one of the top 3 dropping to 11, or the Vikings thinking someone outside the top 3 is actually the best player in the draft).

He told the fans that, I don't imagine ownership is nearly as inflexible as you make them out to be. They've held on to coaches and GMs long past their expiration dates.

And honestly, a full rebuild is likely Adofo-Mensah's best shot at keeping his job. If they try the band-aid approach again next year and fail again why would they keep him around? They're clearly the worst team in the division and have one good defensive player who's now a free agent. The band-aid approach is likely to fail next year. However, committing to a rebuild would buy you much more time as a down period is expected.

[gunnarthor]

44 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

We should all realize that a total rebuild is not going to happen.  When Kwesi Kupcakes ...

Kwesi Kupcakes?

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

He told the fans that, I don't imagine ownership is nearly as inflexible as you make them out to be. They've held on to coaches and GMs long past their expiration dates.

And honestly, a full rebuild is likely Adofo-Mensah's best shot at keeping his job. If they try the band-aid approach again next year and fail again why would they keep him around? They're clearly the worst team in the division and have one good defensive player who's now a free agent. The band-aid approach is likely to fail next year. However, committing to a rebuild would buy you much more time as a down period is expected.

I agree a rebuild is the best path forward, I just don't think Kwesi would be the one to execute it.  If the Wilfs agree a total rebuild is needed, they are in essence saying that they think the team is worse off now than it was 2 years ago when Kwesi took over.  Why would they retain the guy who told them they didn't need to tear it all down 2 years ago because he could fix it, when it turns out he was unable to fix it, and actually made it worse?  If the idea is that Kwesi is making these comments publicly, but privately he and the Wilfs agreed they needed a total rebuild, why didn't he trade Kirk/Danielle/Harrison/Osborn, while cutting players like Ham?  Why did he trade a second round pick midseason to acquire a good-not-great TE that needed to be paid?

I think when the Wilfs fired Zimmer AND Spielman, they assumed a total rebuild was needed (teams fire GMs when they think player acquisition is lacking and coaches when they think player development/utilization is lacking.  To fire both suggests they think the Vikings did not have enough good players, and the players they had weren't being developed/utilized); I'm guessing part of why Kwesi got the job is because he convinced the Wilfs if they hired him they wouldn't have to undergo a total rebuild, which was attractive to a couple competitive individuals who want to win.  Therefore, if Kwesi is now going back on his promise of a competitive rebuild, and in essence saying a total rebuild is now needed, he is openly saying either he made the roster worse, or KOC is incapable of getting the most out of the roster.

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

Kwesi Kupcakes?

It's a reference to the show Brooklyn 99.  In one episode, a character becomes obsessed with a fictional mobile game called Kwazy Kupcakes.  The character pronounces Kwazy exactly like Kwesi, so I have a pavlovian response to say Kupcakes every time I hear Kwesi.

[nicksaviking]

20 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

I agree a rebuild is the best path forward, I just don't think Kwesi would be the one to execute it.  If the Wilfs agree a total rebuild is needed, they are in essence saying that they think the team is worse off now than it was 2 years ago when Kwesi took over.  Why would they retain the guy who told them they didn't need to tear it all down 2 years ago because he could fix it, when it turns out he was unable to fix it, and actually made it worse?  If the idea is that Kwesi is making these comments publicly, but privately he and the Wilfs agreed they needed a total rebuild, why didn't he trade Kirk/Danielle/Harrison/Osborn, while cutting players like Ham?  Why did he trade a second round pick midseason to acquire a good-not-great TE that needed to be paid?

I think when the Wilfs fired Zimmer AND Spielman, they assumed a total rebuild was needed (teams fire GMs when they think player acquisition is lacking and coaches when they think player development/utilization is lacking.  To fire both suggests they think the Vikings did not have enough good players, and the players they had weren't being developed/utilized); I'm guessing part of why Kwesi got the job is because he convinced the Wilfs if they hired him they wouldn't have to undergo a total rebuild, which was attractive to a couple competitive individuals who want to win.  Therefore, if Kwesi is now going back on his promise of a competitive rebuild, and in essence saying a total rebuild is now needed, he is openly saying either he made the roster worse, or KOC is incapable of getting the most out of the roster.

I'm sure this is the opposite. The Wilfs hired Adofo-Mensah and THEY told HIM they wanted to try to avoid a rebuild. A new GM wouldn't call the shots and tell the owners what needs to be done, the new GM would need to follow the wishes of his new bosses. And I get it, they wanted to put fans in the seats, but Kwesi got the job because he agreed to putting off a rebuild; if it was their choice, most GMs would want to start over and build a team in their vision. Now that it's clear it won't work, hopefully the Wilfs will agree to put Spielman's Frankenstein to bed and start building the team the right way.

[Mike Sixel]

KAM said today it is his intention to bring back Kirk (I read that elsewhere, so unsure if true, but I trust the source).

[stringer bell]

6 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

KAM said today it is his intention to bring back Kirk (I read that elsewhere, so unsure if true, but I trust the source).

Bringing back Cousins, extending Jefferson and keeping Hunter would pretty much shoot the budget for all but draft choices, yes? I can't see the team being competitive in that scenario.

I don't know if the Vikings can compete with Detroit, Green Bay and Chicago, let alone the other top teams in the NFC. Cousins is an above-average QB, but he needs a better team around him than what he has in Minnesota. Expecting him to to maintain his level of performance is a risky bet and expecting improvement is even less likely.

Bringing back Cousins means they want continue to try a "competitive rebuild". I really think they should go with Option B.

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Bringing back Cousins, extending Jefferson and keeping Hunter would pretty much shoot the budget for all but draft choices, yes? I can't see the team being competitive in that scenario.

I don't know if the Vikings can compete with Detroit, Green Bay and Chicago, let alone the other top teams in the NFC. Cousins is an above-average QB, but he needs a better team around him than what he has in Minnesota. Expecting him to to maintain his level of performance is a risky bet and expecting improvement is even less likely.

Bringing back Cousins means they want continue to try a "competitive rebuild". I really think they should go with Option B.

I don't see a reasonable way to sign Cousins and Hunter and extend Jefferson. 

And even if they did, they'd still be the worst team in the NFC Central. Or maybe second worst. Justin Fields still stinks no matter if Chicago believes in him or not.

[Parfigliano]

12 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

We should all realize that a total rebuild is not going to happen.  When Kwesi Kupcakes got the job two years ago, he said it would be a competitive rebuild, not a total rebuild, and his moves reflected that.  He can't now turn around and tell the Wilfs that he failed at doing a competitive rebuild, but they should absolutely trust him with the total rebuild.  Kwesi HAS to try to win next year, which to me makes it less likely the Vikings will draft a QB in round 1 (unless something crazy happens, like one of the top 3 dropping to 11, or the Vikings thinking someone outside the top 3 is actually the best player in the draft).

To that end, I expect the Vikings to either trade back, and look for IOL help, or to get defensive help at 11.  If Kwesi actually drafts well, and brings back Kirk, I feel reasonably confident about being able to compete next year.  I don't have much confidence in both of those things happening, so my guess is that the Vikings finish something like 8-9 or 7-10 next year, Kwesi and KOC are both out, and we finally accept the fact that should have been accepted 3 years ago--a total rebuild is needed.

I dont want Kwesi doing a partial rebuild, a total rebuild, or the next draft.  He should be gone.  Today.  His draft picks have been subpar.  Keeping him around is the fast track to being a dumpster fire like the Jets for a decade.

[Parfigliano]

2 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Bringing back Cousins, extending Jefferson and keeping Hunter would pretty much shoot the budget for all but draft choices, yes? I can't see the team being competitive in that scenario.

I don't know if the Vikings can compete with Detroit, Green Bay and Chicago, let alone the other top teams in the NFC. Cousins is an above-average QB, but he needs a better team around him than what he has in Minnesota. Expecting him to to maintain his level of performance is a risky bet and expecting improvement is even less likely.

Bringing back Cousins means they want continue to try a "competitive rebuild". I really think they should go with Option B.

Wont be competitve with Kwesi doing drafts.

[Mike Sixel]

10 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

I dont want Kwesi doing a partial rebuild, a total rebuild, or the next draft.  He should be gone.  Today.  His draft picks have been subpar.  Keeping him around is the fast track to being a dumpster fire like the Jets for a decade.

That's a serious lack of patience. Last year wasn't bad, it just wasn't good enough. 

[gunnarthor]

10 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

Wont be competitve with Kwesi doing drafts.

He made too many trades his first year but last year we got Addison, who looks like he'll be a pretty good WR. We didn't have another pick in the top 100 but Blackmon showed some promise for a third rounder. Probably a little early to say he can't draft although we'll only have two picks before the fourth round, so ... 

It's really Speilman's last draft - 2021 - that hurts. Five top 100 picks and only Darrisaw to show for it. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

22 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

KAM said today it is his intention to bring back Kirk (I read that elsewhere, so unsure if true, but I trust the source).

I read the quote, and he pointedly brought up the price aspect--here's the quote; "I think I've been pretty consistent with that," Adofo-Mensah said. "I thought we were was playing pretty good football before he got injured [in Week 8]. It's the most important position in sports. Now, ultimately it always comes down to, 'Can you find an agreement that works for all sides,' and all those things. But as a player, it's certainly my intention to have him back here." 

To me, so much hangs on that penultimate sentence; if Kwesi is unwilling to go above 2/$60M, I don't know that Kirk is back next year.  If Atlanta offers him 4/$160, is Kwesi willing to match that?  I think Kwesi probably is willing to do more now than he was before the season started, but I also understand the reality that Kwesi had two entire offseasons to extend Kirk, and declined/failed both times.

[Parfigliano]

Vikings announced as one of the games in London in 2024 at Tottenham Hotspur stadium. Opponent and date wasnt.