Varland starting Friday, Mahle pushed back a day

[CRF]

10 minutes ago, 2wins87 said:

Varland was sitting 95/96 and touched 98 in his first start in St. Paul.  It is AAA, but he also got 40%+ whiffs on his secondary stuff.

Obviously pitching to the Yankees in Yankee stadium will be different, but he already has a track record of reasonable success in the majors, including his debut in Yankee stadium last year.

Seems like they didn't make the decision until yesterday, but I do think a part of the move is them being pleased/impressed with Varland's early season work and thinking he has a good chance of success.  Particularly now that the Yankees will have to go over a new set of scouting reports which might be a little less detailed.

Well...you and Squirrel talked me off the ledge for now. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, much less Varland's start against NY last season. Let's hope Varland blows them away tonight. GO TWINS!

[Squirrel]

7 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

I think this is a pretty good use of that last pitching spot. Rotate Sands out and bring up Varland to pitch on his day. Ease Maeda back in. Fill in with another pitcher in that 13th spot until Winder is ready or Sands comes back. The pitcher in that 13th spot isn’t as critical as the flexibility. 

This is reasonable and what I think they are doing. Winder is doing rehab now (I think) so that won't be long. And Megill, after a poor first start has been reasonably okay, but can be used in the same way Sands was. So, they have options there.

[Squirrel]

6 minutes ago, CRF said:

Well...you and Squirrel talked me off the ledge for now. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, much less Varland's start against NY last season. Let's hope Varland blows them away tonight. GO TWINS!

Well, you may still jump, but I don't think this is a bad thing ... at least not yet. I'm taking it at face value and I could be wrong to do so, but I'm not going to invent new things to worry about when there are already things to worry about. :)

[wabene]

10 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

I think this is a pretty good use of that last pitching spot. Rotate Sands out and bring up Varland to pitch on his day. Ease Maeda back in. Fill in with another pitcher in that 13th spot until Winder is ready or Sands comes back. The pitcher in that 13th spot isn’t as critical as the flexibility. 

The last sentence is a really good point. 

[chpettit19]

Not ideal, but doesn't seem overly concerning. Couple extra days for Maeda isn't a terrible idea, and we know Varland won't be overwhelmed by the stage in NY. Do find it a little interesting that they seem to have made this decision just yesterday as I'd have thought they'd use Ober if it was a more planned thing. Guessing yesterday was Maeda's pen day and he just wasn't quite feeling 100% so they adjusted and held Varland out to go today and give Maeda some extra time. The Twins position player depth has been tested some early, and now they're dipping a toe into the pitching depth. This is why they built so much depth, though. It was always going to be needed, and isn't the end of the world. It won't be Varland's last start this year for the Twins. And Ober and SWR will get plenty as well.

[Squirrel]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

Not ideal, but doesn't seem overly concerning. Couple extra days for Maeda isn't a terrible idea, and we know Varland won't be overwhelmed by the stage in NY. Do find it a little interesting that they seem to have made this decision just yesterday as I'd have thought they'd use Ober if it was a more planned thing. Guessing yesterday was Maeda's pen day and he just wasn't quite feeling 100% so they adjusted and held Varland out to go today and give Maeda some extra time. The Twins position player depth has been tested some early, and now they're dipping a toe into the pitching depth. This is why they built so much depth, though. It was always going to be needed, and isn't the end of the world. It won't be Varland's last start this year for the Twins. And Ober and SWR will get plenty as well.

Yeah ... I'm not at all concerned it's not Ober. Ober will get his chances. It's not likely no one will go on the IL, although I'm not hoping for that. But Ober will get that call, especially if it's something that requires more than 10 days. But giving Maeda some extra time here and there is good, and glad, for a change, they have the depth to do that as you pointed out.

[DJL44]

33 minutes ago, rv78 said:

I wonder how the guys, back in the day baseball wasn't for babies, pitched 300+ innings a year. (Gibson, Koufax, Carlton, Blue, Perry, Palmer, Jenkins, Ryan, Blyleven etc, etc...) 

They threw 3-5 MPH slower and faced shortstops and catchers who hit .200 with no power. The level of skill in baseball has never been higher. The "worst players" are clearly better.

[wabene]

Based on the results of Ober's first two starts they probably would've waited on calling him up until he righted the ship anyway. He did look better this last time out. 

[wabene]

2 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

They threw 3-5 MPH slower and faced shortstops and catchers who hit .200 with no power. The level of skill in baseball has never been higher. The "worst players" are clearly better.

I would say 8-10 mph slower on average or at least 5-8.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

Yeah ... I'm not at all concerned it's not Ober. Ober will get his chances. It's not likely no one will go on the IL, although I'm not hoping for that. But Ober will get that call, especially if it's something that requires more than 10 days. But giving Maeda some extra time here and there is good, and glad, for a change, they have the depth to do that as you pointed out.

1 hour ago, wabene said:

Based on the results of Ober's first two starts they probably would've waited on calling him up until he righted the ship anyway. He did look better this last time out. 

Yeah, not concerned at all that it wasn't Ober. But there's a human element to it all as well, and I'd think they'd have called up the more established arm if it were a thing they were expecting a week ago, or 3 days ago. They know full well Ober can pitch in the majors, and probably deserves to be in the majors. They wouldn't have passed him up for Varland if it were something they were expecting before yesterday. But this is why they have Varland and SWR on top of Ober, so when late notice callups need to happen they have multiple acceptable options. They'll all get starts this year. Hopefully not too many, but they'll get them.

[bird]

9 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I like that they are being proactive with Maeda’s situation and bringing up Varland while the vibes are good. This has potential to pay off in subtle ways down the road. 

Very much agree, and there's probably a benefit to giving Mahle an extra day as well. Seems like a smart move, given that the replacement is Varland and not Rodriguez or Sanchez.

[wabene]

It has occurred to me that with all the games the Twins have tried to throw away this year, I don't know how they got to 9-4. Rocco must've enlisted some dark forces, lol. 

[nicksaviking]

9 hours ago, ashbury said:

I share this concern/question.

Varland up for a day, then presumably back down - he's a starter and they won't just let him rot if there's no room in the rotation,  If Sands is now down then he can't come right back up.  Megill is the only AAA reliever I see on the 40-man, and he's had one rancid game and 3 decent ones (small sample, but we do have Magill's larger body of work to go on.  No room on the 40-man for someone new). Balazovic, Headrick, Ober, SWR - all viewed as starters I believe.

I must be overlooking an alternative.  I guess it'll be Megill.  Hopefully used like Sands was used, i.e. not at all.  Break Glass In Case Of Emergency.

In any case, I am looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

Unlike last year, they haven't shown a need to hit the bullpen hard. I'd guess they'd still turn to Magill, but if they don't, turning to one of the extra starters, either the ones already at the MLB level, or the ones in St. Paul for an game or two wouldn't be the end of the world.

[nicksaviking]

Also, while I'm sure Ober understands it's just about the timing, putting a chip on a pitcher's shoulder often leads to magnificent results. 

[tony&rodney]

2 hours ago, rv78 said:

I wonder how the guys, back in the day baseball wasn't for babies, pitched 300+ innings a year. (Gibson, Koufax, Carlton, Blue, Perry, Palmer, Jenkins, Ryan, Blyleven etc, etc...) 

A couple of people have already responded, which caused me to wonder about those who compare then and now. A few questions. Could Michael Jordan in his prime compete in the NBA of 2023 or even make a team, perhaps as a defensive specialist or a decent player off the bench? This raises eyebrows, likely. 

Do those who make comparisons have the first hand experience of actually seeing, in person, each of the pitchers above play on several occasions as well as attending the games played in the last few years?

As a general practice it is just not a good idea to compare across generations except for fun or as a complimentary thought. There have been so many changes in how speed is measured, the salaries of players which affects how they are used, and other items to reduce the feasible reliability of the comparisons to near zero.

The one area where there is a clear difference is in relief pitching. The roster size increases and the number of pitchers carried on each team as well as the rules for shuttling players between the minors and majors have resulted in a huge jump for the effectiveness and reliance on the bullpens of the current era. This has also made a huge difference in how starting pitchers approach their 80-100 pitches. Now imagine that each bullpen could only carry four or five relievers. Does that affect how the pitchers throw? Thus, because of many changes and max effort there is an overall increase in velocity today.

We could also look at strike out rates and wonder if guys like Koufax would have struck out 500 batters in a season, which is possible given the rates at which some current players swing and miss. Of course, I don't believe that because Sandy pitched in a different time and place. It just doesn't work to make hard definitive comparisons across different eras and if you think that Koufax or Nolan Ryan didn't throw as hard or have as good a curveball as any current player, you clearly never saw them pitch. 

[Doctor Gast]

2 hours ago, Squirrel said:

They want keep Ober stretched out as a starter going longer than 3 innings so when they need him, and they will, he's ready. Remember, Maeda didn't pitch at all last year, so giving him some extra rest is a good thing right now. And, he has been pretty good so far.

I'm well pleased with Maeda preformance and as I stated before, this rest is expected. My point is to keep Ober up with club, plus keeping his moral up (by not being sent down). In long relief  using Ober for 3 innings, then possibly 4 innings & now 5 innings spot starting. Would keep him in lock step in how he was used in AAA. 

I like Varland but I'd prefer Ober at the top his game in this situation than Varland, starting & having Sands in psuedo long relief. 

[Battle ur tail off]

Didn't Varland pitch against the Yankees and do well last year? That might have something to do with it.

**Check that I looked he only gave up 3 hits and struck out 7 in 5.1 innings.

[Craig Arko]

2 hours ago, wabene said:

It has occurred to me that with all the games the Twins have tried to throw away this year, I don't know how they got to 9-4. Rocco must've enlisted some dark forces, lol. 

Jobu.

[Dman]

I am surprised by the move but was already thinking Maeda's stuff doesn't really match up well against the Yankee's.  No idea how Varland will do this time around but he and Ober seem pretty neck and neck right now so I am happy with either one.  I think this move makes sense and it is going to be a tough game to win no matter who is pitching for the Twins.

I still like what Maeda has shown so far this season and I think a little less stress on the arm early in is the right decision.  We need to keep the rotation as healthy as possible and as was stated earlier most likely Gray and Mahle will need some extra time off as well so this won't be the last time something like this happens.

[Unwinder]

5 hours ago, LewFordLives said:

The Twins always seem to give their players lots of "rest" and yet they always seem to have lots of "injuries". Are players legitimately getting hurt more often than they used to or are they just less likely these days to play through the daily aches and pains that go along with being a professional athlete?

Lot of people have responded to this already, but I do also want to point out that Maeda in particular did play through some sort of discomfort in 2021, and he wasn't very good. Even when today's "soft" players are willing to tough it out, I think management prefers to bank on better performance from a fresh player.

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

A couple of people have already responded, which caused me to wonder about those who compare then and now. A few questions. Could Michael Jordan in his prime compete in the NBA of 2023 or even make a team, perhaps as a defensive specialist or a decent player off the bench? This raises eyebrows, likely. 

Do those who make comparisons have the first hand experience of actually seeing, in person, each of the pitchers above play on several occasions as well as attending the games played in the last few years?

As a general practice it is just not a good idea to compare across generations except for fun or as a complimentary thought. There have been so many changes in how speed is measured, the salaries of players which affects how they are used, and other items to reduce the feasible reliability of the comparisons to near zero.

The one area where there is a clear difference is in relief pitching. The roster size increases and the number of pitchers carried on each team as well as the rules for shuttling players between the minors and majors have resulted in a huge jump for the effectiveness and reliance on the bullpens of the current era. This has also made a huge difference in how starting pitchers approach their 80-100 pitches. Now imagine that each bullpen could only carry four or five relievers. Does that affect how the pitchers throw? Thus, because of many changes and max effort there is an overall increase in velocity today.

We could also look at strike out rates and wonder if guys like Koufax would have struck out 500 batters in a season, which is possible given the rates at which some current players swing and miss. Of course, I don't believe that because Sandy pitched in a different time and place. It just doesn't work to make hard definitive comparisons across different eras and if you think that Koufax or Nolan Ryan didn't throw as hard or have as good a curveball as any current player, you clearly never saw them pitch. 

I love sports history. There was a time where I could list every 3000 hit, 300 Win and 500 HR club member in order. Along with the all time top rushers, passers and receivers and scorers in the NFL and NBA.

But if we’re being honest, Babe Ruth never saw a slider in his life, Ted Williams never saw a 98 MPH fastball ( sorry Bob Feller, you’re wrong) and Jim Brown would be slower than defensive lineman these days. 
 

Doesn’t change their greatness comparatively, but evolution is just undeniable. You want pitchers to throw more pitches or innings? They’ll have to tone down the velocity. What do you think batters these days do to 88 MPH fastballs? And consider that the Greg Maddox type vets don’t get six inch extensions on both sides of the zone.

[Joey Self]

6 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

 

But if we’re being honest, Babe Ruth never saw a slider in his life, Ted Williams never saw a 98 MPH fastball ( sorry Bob Feller, you’re wrong) and Jim Brown would be slower than defensive lineman these days. 

But Ruth did see dirty and scuffed balls, rode trains, played mostly day games and didn't have the same training knowledge that players today have.   One thing about baseball that makes it so timeless is that hitting .320 against the old timers and hitting it today are ROUGHLY equivalent (and don't tell me about OBA and other new metrics--I'm a fan of those, moreso than I am baseball card stats).  

Can't recall just where I read it, but I saw a convincing case that starters could go every 4th day under today's conditions so long as they didn't go much over 105 pitches.  It was pitching when fatigued that caused arm issues.  

[Nine of twelve]

14 hours ago, CRF said:

I sure hope I'm wrong, but I have this feeling that tonight's game could be over before it starts. I'm just not sold on the idea of throwing Varland in there. I really hope we hit like we did last night, even though that's not likely. I would SO love to kick their butts again! 

Your wish was granted!

[DJL44]

22 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

If you think that Koufax or Nolan Ryan didn't throw as hard or have as good a curveball as any current player, you clearly never saw them pitch. 

The top end talent is about the same. Mike Trout is about as good as Mickey Mantle or Ty Cobb. The worst players have gotten a lot better. The big jump in talent happened in the 1960s through integration. Expansion kept things in check for a while but the leagues haven't expanded for 25 years.

Quote

Can't recall just where I read it, but I saw a convincing case that starters could go every 4th day under today's conditions so long as they didn't go much over 105 pitches.  It was pitching when fatigued that caused arm issues.  

This I could see as possible, but I think teams want a "throw" day in the middle for practice. In the playoffs they shorten rotations and get rid of the "throw" day in between starts.

[Squirrel]

On 4/14/2023 at 8:20 AM, CRF said:

Well...you and Squirrel talked me off the ledge for now. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, much less Varland's start against NY last season. Let's hope Varland blows them away tonight. GO TWINS!

I hope you didn’t accidentally fall off the ledge while jumping for joy! 🙂

[CRF]

26 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I hope you didn’t accidentally fall off the ledge while jumping for joy! 🙂

I was ready to jump when the first two guys went yard, but I remembered your wise words, and hung in there. 

[Squirrel]

8 minutes ago, CRF said:

I was ready to jump when the first two guys went yard, but I remembered your wise words, and hung in there. 

Not really sure about the wise part, and that almost received the laughing emoji, I think I was just being hopeful to protect against any possible jinx!