Team Control and Hicks

[Physics Guy]

To be fair, the Twins do not always follow the wisdom of keeping players down for an extra month or two. Joe Mauer was up right away in 2004 right away. Last year, Parmelee and Hendriks both made the opening day roster. So, although I think sending Hicks/Gibson down for a month would be the smart thing to do, I don't think that is what the Twins will do if they go out and win a job in spring training (which of course is crazy because spring training stats mean so little).

 

Thanks for stating exactly what I was thinking. You read all the time about teams holding back their top prospects to preserve team control, yet I don't recall a situation where I felt the Twins were doing that. For a team that doesn't seem to want to spend money it would be the smart thing to do. I generally am supportive of what Ryan does, but this is one area I think the Twins don't make good decisions.

 

As for the individual players, I agree with keeping Gibson on a pitch count in the minors for the first 6 weeks. His post-surgery situation makes it easy to justify. I think Mastro would be fine as a fill-in for the first few weeks, so start Hicks in AAA. The team control is important, arbitration not so much. The Super-2 is hard to predict anyways and I don't think I would support keeping Hicks down that long unless Mastro tears it up in April and May.

[Jim H]

First, it is not even clear that Hicks is ready to play in the majors. His AA numbers were not dominating, and it has already been pointed out he has not played in AAA at all. He maybe ready defensively, but again he hasn't played above AA, so it is certainly likely he may have something to learn on that side of the ball as well. Second, spring training will likely determine whether he begins the year in the majors, but it won't all be about stats. How he goes about his work, the kind of at bats he takes, how he reacts to this opportunity, and how well Benson and Mastroianni are doing those same things, will probably be the determining factors.

 

I don't think the Twins are going to worry about Super Two, and they may not care that much about the extra year of team control either. They probably don't want yo-yo a top prospect back and forth from the majors to the minors, however. So if Hicks is a bit shaky this spring, no matter what the stats say, he may very well begin the year in the minors. Some at bats in AAA won't hurt him, and giving Mastro and/or Benson a real opportunity to show what they could do as starter may not hurt either.

[DelawareTwinsFan]

How much do the Twins pay you? It seems to me the whole purpose of your point is to screw players out of pay raises. Will we the fans see any of this--NO! keeping deserving playes in AAA for an extra month serves to degrade the team's April performance, thus making it more difficult to recover lost ground for the rest of the season. Ever since Gardenhire took over I have watched him f-around with the line-up in April digging a hole that the team has to recover. This policy you advocate is fan hating as much as player hating.

 

I don't understand, the ability to keep a player for an additional year before they hit free agency seems to be a fan friendly maneuver. I know I would have loved to have Santana one more year. Same thing with Torii. Starting the clock early on players, especially those that haven't seen AAA yet seems silly unless you're Kirby Puckett or Joe Mauer.

[70charger]

I don't understand, the ability to keep a player for an additional year before they hit free agency seems to be a fan friendly maneuver. I know I would have loved to have Santana one more year. Same thing with Torii. Starting the clock early on players, especially those that haven't seen AAA yet seems silly unless you're Kirby Puckett or Joe Mauer.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking. As a fan, as a season ticket holder, I am capable of seeing the difference between 2 weeks now and a whole year later. If he's good enough, I want the whole year later. THAT is the fan-friendly move.

[kab21]

Why can't Gibson start 3-5 innings in the majors? What prevents that? They will carry 13 pitchers, why not have Gibson give them good innings here, and not in Rochester?

 

Routinely putting 6 innings onto the bullpen would destroy it especially when you have other question marks.

 

I highly doubt that the Twins carry 13 pitchers the whole season. That gives them a bench of Buterrible, a utility IF'er and a 4th OF'er.

[Mike Sixel]

Kyle Gibson is 25. By the time he is eligible to be a FA, he will be 30+. Many of you are hesitant to even sign a FA pitcher that old. Why are we worried about control? And, the average fan, the ones that push them from 20,000 per night to good numbers per night, they don't care about 2015.

[Mike Sixel]

Routinely putting 6 innings onto the bullpen would destroy it especially when you have other question marks.

 

I highly doubt that the Twins carry 13 pitchers the whole season. That gives them a bench of Buterrible, a utility IF'er and a 4th OF'er.

 

How? If you plan for this, why can't Gibson pitch 3-4 innings, and the stiff you were going to have be your number 5 pitcher pitch the second half of the game? How is 3-4 good innings from Gibson, followed by 3-4 innings from the long reliever or whatever, bad for the bullpen?

 

Why use Gibson's innings in the minors, where they do the Twins no good?

[snepp]

Kyle Gibson is 25. By the time he is eligible to be a FA, he will be 30+. Many of you are hesitant to even sign a FA pitcher that old. Why are we worried about control? And, the average fan, the ones that push them from 20,000 per night to good numbers per night, they don't care about 2015.

 

I think it's safe to say that this is more about Hicks than it is about Gibson.

[Boom Boom]

Kyle Gibson is 25. By the time he is eligible to be a FA, he will be 30+. Many of you are hesitant to even sign a FA pitcher that old. Why are we worried about control? And, the average fan, the ones that push them from 20,000 per night to good numbers per night, they don't care about 2015.

 

I was going to make this same point. Gibson is already at his prime years, and probably would have been up early last season if it wasn't for the elbow injury. We were willing to burn a year of team control then, why not now? If he's going to be on a 140 inning limit, what's the point of burning a bunch of those innings at AAA?

[ashbury]

Some well-known examples of guys who spent time in the minors unnecessarily: Evan Longoria (who fell two days short of a year of service time), David Price (eight days short) and Matt Wieters (who spent two months in the minors to put off arbitration by a year).

 

And this is not a matter of teams screwing players; it is the procedure set up in the collective bargaining agreement and agreed to by the players' union as well as the owners. Any hard feelings by a young star should be taken up with the team's union rep and then on up through channels, and not focused on the team's front office; if there's a real problem then it can be negotiated at the next CBA. Fans (IMO) can take note but mainly move on to other topics.

[twinsnorth49]

Are the posters who would trade a year of control over two weeks of play, in an otherwise meaningless season, actually serious? Honest question.

 

That seems to be a bit steep for a guy who's never had a AAA PA.

[Mike Sixel]

If he is the best OFer on the 40 man, he should be up, yes. I'm 100% serious about trading 2 weeks (and, does anyone think the Twins will send him down for 2 weeks?) this year for a year of not paying him what he is worth. Team control is about money, and this team has no, none, notta, commitments in 3 years other than Mauer.

[snepp]

No, team control isn't simply about money, it's about guaranteeing that you can keep your best young players on the team for an additional year without risk of them choosing to go elsewhere.

 

Can you guarantee right now that Hicks will sign an extension to stay in Minnesota when the time comes?

[twinsnorth49]

If he is the best OFer on the 40 man, he should be up, yes. I'm 100% serious about trading 2 weeks (and, does anyone think the Twins will send him down for 2 weeks?) this year for a year of not paying him what he is worth. Team control is about money, and this team has no, none, notta, commitments in 3 years other than Mauer.

 

Well that sounds very grand and honourable and all but it's outright foolish to relinquish that control for so little. I'd suggest being the best OFer out of ST on this team isn't all that big an accomplishment.

 

No I don't belive they will keep him down for only 2 weeks and that's perfectly OK considering how this year is looking. Paying him what he's worth? You have no idea what he's worth at this point and if he turns out to be a guy you extend, what's the harm in having an extra year to do that?

[Mike Sixel]

The harm is the lack of ticket sales this year and next year. The harm is not trying to put the best team on the field. The harm is to those people paying good money to watch this team, and not having the best players up.*

 

*this is all assuming he is the best option, of course.

[Mike Sixel]

No, team control isn't simply about money, it's about guaranteeing that you can keep your best young players on the team for an additional year without risk of them choosing to go elsewhere.

 

Can you guarantee right now that Hicks will sign an extension to stay in Minnesota when the time comes?

 

No, I cannot. But if they want to, they'll find a way. But fine, I'll concede that point, that it is only 80% about money.

[twinsnorth49]

The harm is to those people paying good money to watch this team.

 

This team is going to be harmful to watch with or without Hicks for 2 months. I'd rather watch him for an extra year when the team might actually be competitive.

[Boom Boom]

No, team control isn't simply about money, it's about guaranteeing that you can keep your best young players on the team for an additional year without risk of them choosing to go elsewhere.

 

Can you guarantee right now that Hicks will sign an extension to stay in Minnesota when the time comes?

 

No. I also can't guarantee that the Twins will want to sign Hicks to an extension.

[drjim]

Finessing service time for super 2 is all about money. An extra year of control is a different matter.

 

It will be interesting to see how they handle Gibson. If he is good in spring training no reason not to start in the big league rotation. Worry about shutting him down later if he makes it that far. Pretty sure this won't end up as significant as Stasburg or Medlen. He only has so many innings -in might as well use them in the bigs instead of AAA.

[Shane Wahl]

To get a full year of service time a player needs to spend 172 days out of the 183 days of the season in the big leagues. Those numbers are pretty easy to figure and the trade off - 12 days in the minors or an extra year of team control - is also quite easy to see. Teams and players know well in advance how that is going to shake out and it's really no surprise teams often keep players down to start the year.

 

Avoiding the Super-2 status is much trickier. That's based on the service time of the top percentage of players to miss arbitration, so there is a lot of guesswork involved and you could go through the work and guess wrong.

 

I guess my point is that with Hicks, having not played any AAA, to give him time because he could use it and with Gibson, who is on a limit anyway, to put him on Rochester's DL to start the year. I would call them up when I think they're ready and/or there is a need as long as it's not in the first two weeks of the season. I wouldn't try to time their arbitration clocks, though, because that's less certain.

 

 

This is exactly right although they could keep him on an innings-limit in Rochester for awhile.

[kab21]

How? If you plan for this, why can't Gibson pitch 3-4 innings, and the stiff you were going to have be your number 5 pitcher pitch the second half of the game? How is 3-4 good innings from Gibson, followed by 3-4 innings from the long reliever or whatever, bad for the bullpen?

 

Why use Gibson's innings in the minors, where they do the Twins no good?

 

I know that you watch baseball and I think even you realize that a team isn't going to pull an effective starter routinely after throwing 3-4 innings. Plus the alternative is probably Hendriks so it's not like we're diving into the Jason Miller/Mike Smith pile at the beginning of the season.

[Mike Sixel]

True, a team won't, but why not? Isn't 3 innings from Gibson and 5 from Hendriks a good plan? Better than using 3 or 4 relievers after Hendriks starts?

[Steve Penz]

Keep them down for the first two weeks to gains a year. There is really not even an argument here. It just makes good business sense. The only way I see you bringing Hicks up to start the year is if he hits .600 with five bombs and 15 stolen bases in spring training. The guy has never played a AAA game!!

 

Well said. People need to take a step back and think reasonably. 4 weeks of service in what will likely be a down year vs a full year when the player would be in their prime? I do not see how this is a legit discussion. Also, "screwing players out of pay raises"? Okeydoke. I am sorry if this hurts but baseball is a business and the long-term health of you company is a kind of important.

[Badsmerf]

True, a team won't, but why not? Isn't 3 innings from Gibson and 5 from Hendriks a good plan? Better than using 3 or 4 relievers after Hendriks starts?

 

That would never happen. The Twins have enough pitchers right now to let Gibson take it easy and build into the season. They will not bring him up if he can only pitch 4 innings.... Gardy would have a fit, and rightfully so since it would destroy the pitching staff. Part of the reason they got as many arms as they did, IMO, is so they can leave Gibson down to start the year. Plus, I'm sure they want to see him have some success in AAA. If they would have gone out and signed Grienke, I bet things would have been different this offseason.

[Mike Sixel]

If Hendriks starts and goes 5 innings, they need 1-5 relievers. If Gibson starts and goes three or four, and Hendriks goes four or five, they need less out of the pen. How does that plan ruin the pitching staff? If Hendriks starts and goes 4 or 5 ans Gibson goes three, how does that ruin the pitching staff?

 

If Gibson is ready to pitch, are not his innings better used in the majors?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I I think everyone would be very happy if Hicks qualified as a Super 2. That would mean he was way to good in spring training to be sent down, and continued to play well.

 

If he starts the year in MIN and never looks back, he won't be a super 2...

[LimestoneBaggy]

I can understand why people would advocate for bringing the top 25 north, but I'm firmly entrenched with the thought that this is old-world thinking in this case. If Hicks was one of a few pieces needed to contend, it makes perfect sense. The Twins are rebuilding, so let's let them rebuild for the future, and keep Hicks as long as possible. I'm on board with Terry building for the future, and this would be a move for the future [puts blinders on face]. If the Twins are contending in August, and Hicks had a great season, I'll admit I was wrong.

[ThePuck]

Some well-known examples of guys who spent time in the minors unnecessarily: Evan Longoria (who fell two days short of a year of service time), David Price (eight days short) and Matt Wieters (who spent two months in the minors to put off arbitration by a year).

 

One example of a player that could have spent two weeks in the minors and had free agency (and a $23 million year) pushed back a year: Joe Mauer.

 

Brewers did it with Hardy too...his last year with them...he got sent down for just enough time that he had 2 years left till free agency instead of one. Made him more attractive for trade.

[FrodaddyG]

If Hendriks starts and goes 5 innings, they need 1-5 relievers. If Gibson starts and goes three or four, and Hendriks goes four or five, they need less out of the pen. How does that plan ruin the pitching staff? If Hendriks starts and goes 4 or 5 ans Gibson goes three, how does that ruin the pitching staff?

 

If Gibson is ready to pitch, are not his innings better used in the majors?

Worst. Bit. Ever.

[snepp]

Worst. Bit. Ever.

 

I see no uses of the word slappy, nor do I see any Megadeth t-shirts.