Scott Baker Signs with Chicago Cubs

[Physics Guy]

Hey Rocketpig, pretty weak shutting down the other thread, ever since the Twinsdaily transition you seem to have become a bit of a company man. No offense, but you protecting that douche and encouraging that garbage he spews makes this forum worse.

 

I know this will probably just make me your next target, but Dave you really need to get over it. Enough with the venom already towards Thrylos. You obviously have a grudge against him, but your ranting doesn't make the forum any better either. Your post in the other thread has to be one of the more mean-spirited ones I've read. Thrylos obviously was wrong and you will probably have the good fortune of not having to read his posts for awhile as he licks his wounds. I suggest that you do what I do when I come across messages from certain posters, just move on by and don't waste your time reading them.

[OldManWinter]

I do not lament losing something we have not had for awhile and we have not anything from Baker for a long, lo.g time. So, to me it is no loss at all. We can not afford to tie up big money with such a risk. Cubs got what they want, Baker got what he wants, and Twins got what they want ... they still have the $$$ to invest more wisely.

 

Keep Nathan? He did not want to stay. Keep Lariano? He simply was not consistent. It would have been nice to move him at high value, alas his irregular performance would not allow that.

 

want to trade Span and Morneau, guys who claim they want to be Twins and continue to pay their dues. Yet we expect others like Cuddy, Nathan, and others to stay here. We ought not have a double standard either. How can we expect guyx like Span and

[OldManWinter]

Sorry About above errors. I gave up editing out obvious mistakes and redundant and incomplete thoughts.

[Twins Twerp]

Over/under 8 pages before we lock this thread?

 

Most of the anger towards thyros is obviously also with baker. I thought tthe post was dumb but i am more pissed it didnt come true. Now we have to go out and find another pitcher via free agency or trade. Y didnt we sign him,? I would have given him 6 mil plus incentives...this winter has barely begun i know, i just hope this isnt a sign of wbat is to come

[ScottyB]

 

To dakota:

 

PS- People might take you more seriously if you at least attempted to follow conventions of the english language. Things such as capitalization, punctuation and grammar count, even on the web.

 

Amen

[beckmt]

I do not lament losing something we have not had for awhile and we have not anything from Baker for a long, lo.g time. So, to me it is no loss at all. We can not afford to tie up big money with such a risk. Cubs got what they want, Baker got what he wants, and Twins got what they want ... they still have the $$$ to invest more wisely.

 

Keep Nathan? He did not want to stay. Keep Lariano? He simply was not consistent. It would have been nice to move him at high value, alas his irregular performance would not allow that.

 

want to trade Span and Morneau, guys who claim they want to be Twins and continue to pay their dues. Yet we expect others like Cuddy, Nathan, and others to stay here. We ought not have a double standard either. How can we expect guyx like Span and

This is the issue with all small and mid market teams. If Morneau wants to stay let him sign a reasonable extension in the near future so the Twins have cost certainty with him. I hate to trade Span, but he is in the only area the Twins have excess talent, so you have to give value to get value.

It looks like the Twins will only have money for 1 FA pitcher at this market price. I also feel that giving a pitcher more than 4 years is a losing strategy unless he is and obvious ace(and the Twins seem not to have the money to sign these). I still hope they sign Marcum at what is looking like about 3 for $30 mil and trade for 2 - 3 other starters. Diffilcult yes,impossible no.

[Kobs]

All this over a guy coming back from two major elbow ligament repairs?

[PseudoSABR]

Well, if that insanity included Baker as one of the "good" three starters....

 

Missed the point bud. Most of this thread is saying "I can't believe they paid him that!" Welcome to free agency. Hence why the idea of solving this team's pitching woes there was ridiculous from the start.

Oh, I got the point. But overpaying for damaged goods probably wouldn't be part of any good plan; so while I agree with you generally, I'm not sure the Baker signing is indicative of your point. The Twins could spend money, even overpay, for quality pitching. Will they? Probably not.

[PseudoSABR]

All this over a guy coming back from two major elbow ligament repairs?

It's the internet. You're not really surprised.

[glunn]

Here is an interesting article that speculates that the main reason for the Cubs to acquire Baker is to use him as trade bait, assuming that he pitches well. On reflection, this seems like a pretty good strategy.

[kab21]

My sticking point on Baker's deal isn't the money but rather that it doesn't include any team options. 5.5M for one year is not a big deal for a potentially above average pitcher. I don't expect him to be great this season but I would like to put pieces in place for fixing the rotation for 2014/2015. W/O options then he's gone (or too expensive) if he pitches well.

[Nick Nelson]

Hey Rocketpig, pretty weak shutting down the other thread, ever since the Twinsdaily transition you seem to have become a bit of a company man. No offense, but you protecting that douche and encouraging that garbage he spews makes this forum worse.

Because letting people continue to pile on and viciously insult the guy is somehow conducive to quality discourse? How old are you? Grow up.

 

Thrylos was wrong, as most of us expected to begin with. That has been established and nobody is making excuses for him. The only thing we're encouraging by locking up that thread is civility.

[Rosterman]

I see Baker talking to the Twins and the Twins saying something like "$3.5 million with guarantees according to performance for maybe $1.5 million and a $250 buyout option on a $5 million contract for 2014." Like Nathan, take this as the Twins best offer and if someone offers more, grab it. Not a bad offer for Baker. If he does come out of the gate strong, the Cubbies can trade him, too...unless he breaks down like Garza. If he does bad.....well, you could've signed Jason Marquis.

[gunnarthor]

Um, don't be so sanctimonious on PEDs, this organization has had guys suspended, and when TK was told about them being found in the locker room he brushed it under the table, if I recall the story correctly.

 

They were found in the visitors locker room. Seattle, IIRC.

[gunnarthor]

Every organization was blind to PED's in the 90's and early 00's so I don't want to hear that argument on why A organization isn't as good as B organization.

 

Organizations may have been blind but some certainly benefited from it more than others. I don't mind steroid use in the NFL b/c I'm pretty confident the Viking players are juicing just as much as the Patriots and Giants players are. But steroid use in baseball wasn't uniform, some teams benefited more than others, either by creating a culture that let their players take steroids or by signing free agent roiders to long term contracts.

 

Look at the 02-04 Twins. We got bounced twice by the Yanks in those seasons. Our best players were probably Santana, AJ, Dougie Baseball, Radke and Hunter. The Yankees best players were Giambi, Clemens, Pettitte, ARod, Sheffield. One list is a bit different than the other. If you want to ignore the benefit of PEDs in baseball, fine, then that wouldn't alter my original post, Ryan would succeed just fine with Boston's resources.

 

But if you think PEDs did impact the game then you'd have to calculate into that how much a front office would be willing to accept PED users. Going back to Theo for a moment, the Mitchell report indicated that his baseball people thought Eric Gagne had lost his stuff b/c he wasn't on PEDs anymore. Some emails suggested that Gagne wasn't worth trading for. Theo did anyway, which suggests that the Red Sox FO 1) didn't think PEDs impacted baseball 2) Thought Gagne could succeed without PEDs despite what their own scouts suggested or 3) thought he'd start using PEDs again.

[Nick Nelson]

Missed the point bud. Most of this thread is saying "I can't believe they paid him that!" Welcome to free agency. Hence why the idea of solving this team's pitching woes there was ridiculous from the start.

You're reaching by trying to use this example as proof of anything. Baker is the FIRST pitcher to sign a contract with another team this offseason; it stands to reason he'll get more than people expected because clearly the Cubs were motivated buyers and they wanted to swoop him away from the Twins. That doesn't tell us anything about how the rest of the FA market is going to shake out. There's still a very good chance that many pitchers will end up going for less than expected because there are a lot of guys looking for work and only so much money to go around.

 

Also, these "people" that believed the Twins were going to sign multiple pitchers from the top tier of the market... who are they? Who exactly are you trying to rebuke? Certainly not the majority.

[DaveW]

Hey Rocketpig, pretty weak shutting down the other thread, ever since the Twinsdaily transition you seem to have become a bit of a company man. No offense, but you protecting that douche and encouraging that garbage he spews makes this forum worse.

Because letting people continue to pile on and viciously insult the guy is somehow conducive to quality discourse? How old are you? Grow up.

 

Thrylos was wrong, as most of us expected to begin with. That has been established and nobody is making excuses for him. The only thing we're encouraging by locking up that thread is civility.

It would have let up after 24-48 hours and would thus keep him from posting stupid nonsense like that in the future. Personally I think you should ban him, I got a ban after posting a "joke" Liriano post that was clearly a joke, yet you keep a pathological liar around these parts? It weakens the community as a whole to let that crap run wild.

 

Also, you know how old I am Nick.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Leaving it open wasn't going to accomplish anything other than letting more people pile on the guy. As it stands, the point was made. Thrylos will have to be VERY careful with his next prediction no matter if that thread stayed open or whether it was closed. Everyone here will remember how this "done deal" went down and respond accordingly next time around. Leaving the thread open only encouraged people to start getting nasty and insulting him. It brings nothing new or interesting to the discussion.

[TheLeviathan]

Also, these "people" that believed the Twins were going to sign multiple pitchers from the top tier of the market... who are they? Who exactly are you trying to rebuke? Certainly not the majority.

 

You mean like the list I posted just a few replies later?

 

I find it amusing that people are still trying to paint this as a huge overpayment. He got what almost every FA pitcher gets in the first few months of FA - more money than they deserve. Why is this shocking to anyone? The guys that don't get paid are the position players like Doumit and Willingham, most starting pitchers do not fall into that category. So, yes, it should have been expected and it makes all of the posts about how many guys we were going to land with the money we had look ridiculous. And before you half-cock your snippy response again, check the offseason blueprints as a starter.

[TheLeviathan]

Oh, I got the point. But overpaying for damaged goods probably wouldn't be part of any good plan; so while I agree with you generally, I'm not sure the Baker signing is indicative of your point. The Twins could spend money, even overpay, for quality pitching. Will they? Probably not.

 

They didn't give him 10M. This massive overpayment that everyone is hyperventilating about is nonsense. It's a slight overpayment - EXACTLY what happens in FA! Plus, the other favorites around here - Josh Johnson, Shaun Marcum, Erik Bedard - are in the same boat! None of the pitchers we are likely to sign are going to fall outside of the category of "overpaid" and "damaged goods". So the point still very much stands. This shouldn't be surprising and this should be sobering to those that filled out their offseason blueprints full of 2-3 of these guys. We almost always understate the going rate of starting pitching in the offseason. Most of the predictions around here forgot that and look ridiculous, hopefully this was a reminder of that. Not that it will matter next year, many will do the same thing again.

[Jim Crikket]

Since most FAs sign with the team that offers the most money, in pretty much every case that means that every other team thinks the team that signed the guy "overpaid" and the only way to avoid doing so is to pick over the bones of the leftovers in February. So, sure, Baker got "overpaid" according to the Twins' views and those of every other team besides the Cubs. It's fine that the Twins didn't re-sign him if, in fact, they go on to fill out their rotation with better pitchers. But I don't see them doing that if they're going to refuse to ever "overpay" because if avoiding overpaying is your priority, you won't sign anyone with any talent. And if it turns out that they still have a gaping hole in the middle of their rotation all because they didn't want to overpay Baker or because he wouldn't give them a team-friendly 2014 option, that would just prove to me that Terry Ryan's doing nothing but blowing smoke up our collective butts about how serious he is about improving the rotation.

[Riverbrian]

Since most FAs sign with the team that offers the most money, in pretty much every case that means that every other team thinks the team that signed the guy "overpaid" and the only way to avoid doing so is to pick over the bones of the leftovers in February. So, sure, Baker got "overpaid" according to the Twins' views and those of every other team besides the Cubs. It's fine that the Twins didn't re-sign him if, in fact, they go on to fill out their rotation with better pitchers. But I don't see them doing that if they're going to refuse to ever "overpay" because if avoiding overpaying is your priority, you won't sign anyone with any talent. And if it turns out that they still have a gaping hole in the middle of their rotation all because they didn't want to overpay Baker or because he wouldn't give them a team-friendly 2014 option, that would just prove to me that Terry Ryan's doing nothing but blowing smoke up our collective butts about how serious he is about improving the rotation.

 

Nice Post Jim... I Agree completely... I'm hoping that TR will be willing to overpay for someone else. I'm ok with it not being Baker. Jeez... The Off Season Moves slow when you are waiting for something positive.

[Nick Nelson]

And before you half-cock your snippy response again, check the offseason blueprints as a starter.

You seem confused. The blueprints are perspectives on what the Twins should do, not predictions of what they will do. Yes, a lot of people believe the Twins should take advantage of this robust pitching market and spend some money to improve on their extraordinary weakness in that department.

 

I don't think many folks around here have ridiculous illusions about what pitchers are going to sign for this winter. The fact that Baker got a couple extra million more than we expected from a team that clearly valued him highly doesn't really have any bearing on what guys like Jackson, Marcum and Dempster will get. If the Twins are serious about keeping payroll steady, they could afford a guy like that and then some, but of course what they will do is another story. Again, I think you're mixing up people's wishes with their expectations.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think many folks around here have ridiculous illusions about what pitchers are going to sign for this winter. The fact that Baker got a couple extra million more than we expected from a team that clearly valued him highly doesn't really have any bearing on what guys like Jackson, Marcum and Dempster will get. If the Twins are serious about keeping payroll steady, they could afford a guy like that and then some, but of course what they will do is another story. Again, I think you're mixing up people's wishes with their expectations.

 

So, basically you're saying the forum has been without substantive analysis for the last month or more and should be seen as nothing more than a series of 6 year old-esque Santa wishlists that shouldn't be taken seriously?

 

In that case, we're in total agreement - thank you for making my initial point about how ridiculous those hopes were.

[PseudoSABR]

I don't think many folks around here have ridiculous illusions about what pitchers are going to sign for this winter. The fact that Baker got a couple extra million more than we expected from a team that clearly valued him highly doesn't really have any bearing on what guys like Jackson, Marcum and Dempster will get. If the Twins are serious about keeping payroll steady, they could afford a guy like that and then some, but of course what they will do is another story. Again, I think you're mixing up people's wishes with their expectations.

 

So, basically you're saying the forum has been without substantive analysis for the last month or more and should be seen as nothing more than a series of 6 year old-esque Santa wishlists that shouldn't be taken seriously?

 

In that case, we're in total agreement - thank you for making my initial point about how ridiculous those hopes were.

This post is excessively douchey, even for you.

[TheLeviathan]

This post is excessively douchey, even for you.

 

Absolutely intentional. It takes a lot of smug to pass Nick.

 

That said, goes back to my point - all the predictions were ridiculous wishlists - not realistic.

 

Just to recap: I suggest the offseason "rebuild to contend" posts were ridiculous and insane because they were unrealistic and wishful, get called out for being too harsh and that most people didn't think that, post just a small sample of a much richer pile of evidence to prove that plenty of people did, then get told all of those things were unrealistic and wishful. Right where I started.

[Guest USAFChief]

This post is excessively douchey, even for you.

 

Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

[snepp]

Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

 

What would you say its DORP is?

[Guest USAFChief]

Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

 

What would you say its DORP is?

 

fDORP or bDORP?

[PseudoSABR]

Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

 

What would you say its DORP is?

 

fDORP or bDORP?

Well done, guys.