Zack Wheeler signs with Philly

[Danchat]

How is this a problem for the fans, exactly? They increased attendance so much last year, that Harper made them money, btw......

They finished .500 last year despite spending tons of money on Harper, Realmuto, others. I care about winning, not making splashy headlines.

[Mike Sixel]

 

They finished .500 last year despite spending tons of money on Harper, Realmuto, others. I care about winning, not making splashy headlines.

 

And those players are still on this team now....with a much better pitching staff. Most teams aren't built in a year. You didn't post about not caring about winning, you posted that they were tied to bad contracts.

 

If the Twins had signed a great pitcher 2 or 1 year ago, they wouldn't be in this mess.....no team is built in a day. The Phillies might not win, but you can't say they aren't at least trying to win at this point.

[stringer bell]

I tend to support Levine and Falvey, but the Twins have huge holes in their rotation and a large amount of payroll that they can commit to filling those holes. They need to sign top pitchers this offseason.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I tend to support Levine and Falvey, but the Twins have huge holes in their rotation and a large amount of payroll that they can commit to filling those holes. They need to sign top pitchers this offseason.

 

I agree with the S in pitchers, btw......one good SP isn't enough given they decided not to have any long term commitments last year, and now have 3 holes.....

[ewen21]

 

24million AAV. That's not a bad paycheck. Although a bit lower than I expected honestly

Why should he get more than that?  Here is a guy who turns 30 this spring with a career WAR of 10.1 

[glunn]

I believe that it's worth noting that none of us know how much the Twins offered. It is possible that the Twins offered as much or more than what the Phils offered. It's also possible that the Twins offered a lot less.

 

There may be strong grounds for us to be unhappy or weak grounds, but we will likely never know the details.

[Vanimal46]

Why should he get more than that? Here is a guy who turns 30 this spring with a career WAR of 10.1

Teams don’t pay for past performance anymore remember? Now it’s all about who has the best projection system to guess how they will do in the future.

[ewen21]

 

How is this a problem for the fans, exactly? They increased attendance so much last year, that Harper made them money, btw......

If I am a fan and my team wastes money on bad contracts then are hamstrung by them later that is a problem.  Zach Wheeler is a question mark to me.  With his injury history how in the world is he going to be effective over the life of that contract?  

 

Simply put he is Darvish 2.0, in my opinion.  I can totally see him struggling early and getting BOOed off the mound

[Mike Sixel]

 

If I am a fan and my team wastes money on bad contracts then are hamstrung by them later that is a problem.  Zach Wheeler is a question mark to me.  With his injury history how in the world is he going to be effective over the life of that contract?  

 

Simply put he is Darvish 2.0, in my opinion.  I can totally see him struggling early and getting BOOed off the mound

 

Of course ,you have to believe that Harper and Realmuto were bad contracts....and that Philly would then not spend more money (which they have).....

 

I suppose it is better to have financial flexibility, and never use it.....

 

Also, Wheeler isn't getting booed off the stage next year. And Darvish will be as good as any current Twins' pitcher this year.

[ewen21]

 

Teams don’t pay for past performance anymore remember? Now it’s all about who has the best projection system to guess how they will do in the future.

 

If the past doesn't matter then why not sign Buxton to a 7 year 200 million dollar contract because of all of his potential?  I don't use those systems and I would advise any team not to assume they have more value than fangraphs money.

[Mike Sixel]

 

If the past doesn't matter then why not sign Buxton to a 7 year 200 million dollar contract because of all of his potential?  I don't use those systems and I would advise any team not to assume they have more value than fangraphs money.

 

If you don't think teams pay players based on what they project those players to do in the future, I have no idea how you think teams decide how much to pay.......

[ewen21]

 

Of course ,you have to believe that Harper and Realmuto were bad contracts....and that Philly would then not spend more money (which they have).....

 

I suppose it is better to have financial flexibility, and never use it.....

 

Also, Wheeler isn't getting booed off the stage next year. And Darvish will be as good as any current Twins' pitcher this year.

I will take that bet.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I will take that bet.

 

meh, take it or not.....it's a distraction from the Philly discussion......their previous deals did not stop them from signing Wheeler, so they were not hamstrung.

[ewen21]

 

If you don't think teams pay players based on what they project those players to do in the future, I have no idea how you think teams decide how much to pay.......

 

I take a big STEAMER on their projections for Wheeler just as I did with Darvish.  Neither guy is durable, both missed extended periods of time. 

 

That is all Mike.  I am not at all disappointed that we didn't sign this guy.  I have seen him pitch a whole lot more than you have and while he is pretty good he is not THAT good

[Otto von Ballpark]

I take a big STEAMER on their projections for Wheeler just as I did with Darvish. Neither guy is durable, both missed extended periods of time.

 

FWIW, the "missed time" for both Wheeler and Darvish was primarily just an early season TJ surgery, causing the time off and rehab to span a couple seasons. Wheeler had a little extra arm trouble in his first full season after TJ too, but it's not far-fetched to think that was also related to his surgery and time off.

 

If that level of "durability" is concerning for you, you will probably end up passing on a lot of good pitchers.

[jkcarew]

Berrios and Wheeler have been about the same pitcher over the last two seasons in terms of value. Kinda makes me ask myself why Berrios would sign an extension with the Twins. Berrios will be a full year younger than Wheeler when he hits free agency.

[glunn]

For whatever it's worth, there is a rumor that Wheeler turned down a higher offer from the White Sox.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-rumors-phillies-sign-zack-wheeler-but-white-sox-made-bigger-offer-angels-had-meeting-with-gerrit-cole/

[TFRazor]

 

Why should he get more than that?  Here is a guy who turns 30 this spring with a career WAR of 10.1 

What he should get and what the market will give him are not the same thing. I think he was viewed as the best pitcher on the market after Strasburg and Cole. Any team that wasn't looking to go near the 200million mark for those two would duke it out for him. I honestly expected something along the lines of 26-30 AAV. Which he may have been offered depending on what he turned down from the ChiSox

[gunnarthor]

Apparently, the Twins bidding topped out at 100m. 

[cardsfan]

Philly seems to be the place for high profile NL east free agents.

 

Looks like they'll have $50+ million tied up in 2 players.

If Philly fans think signing Wheeler is going to put them over the top they are in a rude awakening.

 

This isn't like acquiring Cliff Lee and Doc Halladay. Those contracts for them soured after the first couple of seasons.

 

You are lucky. Oh, he may start out as a bang, but, free agent signings turn out bad a large percentage of the time.

 

Do you think the Yankees, Astros, even the Red Sox and Indians say to themselves oh the Twins got Wheeler or Madbum?

 

The Giants win 3 playoff rounds 3 times, but, they weren't all that great. Madbum had his moments for sure, but, he isn't the same.

[Mike Sixel]

 

If Philly fans think signing Wheeler is going to put them over the top they are in a rude awakening.

This isn't like acquiring Cliff Lee and Doc Halladay. Those contracts for them soured after the first couple of seasons.

You are lucky. Oh, he may start out as a bang, but, free agent signings turn out bad a large percentage of the time.

Do you think the Yankees, Astros, even the Red Sox and Indians say to themselves oh the Twins got Wheeler or Madbum?

The Giants win 3 playoff rounds 3 times, but, they weren't all that great. Madbum had his moments for sure, but, he isn't the same.

 

How well does signing bad free agents work, or only relying on the draft?

 

Great teams acquire players using all the different channels. Philly wasn't drafting well. Rather than wait for that to be fixed, they spent money. The alternative is the money goes to the owners. I don't get the downside here, from a fan's perspective.

 

Clearly their contract to Harper (which paid for itself in increased ticket sales) and Realmuto did not stop them from being able to sign Wheeler, so they didn't cost them financial flexibility. 

 

What should the Phillies have done? Punted on last year and this year, and not tried to get better?

[cardsfan]

They tried with Arrieta. Perhaps they can get out of his contract after 2020. Panicking is not the answer. Could they have NOLA and Wheeler lead them to a title? Perhaps.

 

I can't believe how lucky or fortunate the Cardinals have been even if they didn't win another title looking at the Giants and Phillies.

 

Wheeler with his injury history is not an ace.

[SwainZag]

 

How well does signing bad free agents work, or only relying on the draft?

 

Great teams acquire players using all the different channels. Philly wasn't drafting well. Rather than wait for that to be fixed, they spent money. The alternative is the money goes to the owners. I don't get the downside here, from a fan's perspective.

 

Clearly their contract to Harper (which paid for itself in increased ticket sales) and Realmuto did not stop them from being able to sign Wheeler, so they didn't cost them financial flexibility. 

 

What should the Phillies have done? Punted on last year and this year, and not tried to get better?

 

So Harper's 13-year, $330 million contract, has already paid for itself in increased ticket sales?

[Mike Sixel]

So Harper's 13-year, $330 million contract, has already paid for itself in increased ticket sales?

The first year did, should we ignore the rest of the post? Should Philly, if they have the money to add players, not? And punt seasons?