Bullpen

[USAFChief]

 

It didn’t take long for that hope to get shaken.

Perhaps you meant "swings and misses by the catcher attempting to stab one wild-*** pitch after another?"

[Vanimal46]

Perhaps you meant "swings and misses by the catcher attempting to stab one wild-*** pitch after another?"

Shocked... Shocked I tell ya!

[luckylager]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWqGNvenO5c

 

We've got a gorilla for sale, Magill(a) Gorilla for sale....

[bird]

 

How about "We Can Work It Out"?

 

Some others:

 

"You've Got to Hide Your 'Pen Away"

 

"The Fools on the Hill"

 

"While Our Offense Gently Weeps"

 

"Get Back" (sung to Taylor Rogers)

 

Overheard as a kid in the advanced arithmetic department points to a name on the screen as Thad and Derek lean in: 

 

"This Boy"

[Soft Tosser]

My patience with this bullpen has worn down quickly. Get some arms now

[bird]

 

Through June his velocity was down about 1.5 MPH from the start of the year, so I was thinking the same thing. But then last start he was back to his 93 MPG average, I don't know. He just might not be very consistent. Or good.

 

No one will or should like this, but with a 10 game division lead, I'm guessing they aren't going to rush to fix this. But right now they should raid the out-of-contention teams. Elite guys won't move yet; the Blue Jays are surely going to want to wait maximize a guy like Ken Giles, Will Smith probably too. But I bet the Twins could get Daniel Hudson now. Or Roenis Elais, I wanted him earlier in the year and now that I saw him in person last night, I want him even more. Ian Kennedy could probably be gotten without given up much in terms of prospects if the Twins take on some of his contract.

 

Get a couple of the unsexy guys now, then when other teams fade and the big names are ready to be moved, get one of those as well.

 

 

 

My favorite idea for starters, Nick. 

 

The need for salary relief can offset the seller's natural leverage. Dealing early reduces competitive bidding. Going fo Ian Kennedy or his type makes sense to me.

[yarnivek1972]

How about, he's just not good and never was. There's a reason he was a no-name that no one wanted but the Twins. It's been a bubble gum and bandaid fix to the pen so far this season. We all knew this would be a team weakness. It needs to be addressed with high end talent. The very best out there no matter what the cost. All of their other moves have worked out and this team as it sits is a WS contender. Time to open up the pocket books and let go of a few young guys with talent, the iron is hot now, time to strike.

Because that isn’t an accurate assesment. No one is confusing him with Kimbrell, but to say he was never good just isn’t correct. All of his numbers point to a guy who is a considerably better than average reliever.

[tman]

I see that Giles, one of the relievers I thought the Twins might target, just went on the IL with an inflamed elbow.  That's not a good sign.  I'm sure the Twins are making inquiries now for relievers who could help the bullpen, but that may be slow until we get closer to the trade deadline and more teams are willing to concede that they are sellers.   What's going to make it difficult it that so many teams need bullpen help and in almost all instances those sellers will deal players to the teams who offer the best prospects.  I don't think money will be an issue in picking up any existing contracts, as these Twins team will have a shot if they can get a top-line starter and a couple of decent relievers.  Is Parker healthy?  If, he is, that's a problem for the Twins. I think Trevor May has potential to be a closer, but not until he can prove he can locate his pitches.  He reminds me a bit like Pressley, for whom the Twins got tired of waiting for him to reach his potential, and then when they finally traded him, he became the pitcher they hoped he would be.   Also getting tired of talking about potential with McGill and Duffy.  Those guys have the velo and "swing and miss" stuff, but they continue to struggle to be consistent.

[BattleYourTailOff]

I also think “overpaying” is necessary and justified at this point. Partially because they went into the season doing nothing to help the pen. They really need to take a bite of the turd sandwich now with giving up talent to improve this bullpen. Anything else would be a disservice to the season and the team.

[Blake]

 

The Twins bullpen has now given up 25 runs in 10 June games. ERA for the season near 5, and it's worse than that if you take out Rogers.

 

They went 6-4 on the road trip, but the cracks were visible and widening, and have been since April. This isn't news, even if the damage was minimized for a time through fortune, good to great starting pitching, and historically outrageous offense.

 

There is no help in the minors. 30 year old rookies and failed minor leaguers getting a chance make for nice stories, but don't end up helping the team win important games.

 

They passed on help this winter, and passed on potenial help in Kimbrel.

 

I don't know what they should do. I'm not sure they can or will pay enough in prospects to seriously improve the pen. I know it won't be cheap, and several of the best trade pieces are hurt.

 

Any ideas?

Get Scherzer or Bumgarner, move Pineda to the bullpen.

[Blake]

 

Absolutely need to improve their bullpen. They will have to trade prospects I would imagine and perhaps assume some money on the contracts they would acquire.

What if the team absorbs all contract costs? Does that move the needle when it comes to the prospects the team might need to offer?

[DocBauer]

What if the team absorbs all contract costs? Does that move the needle when it comes to the prospects the team might need to offer?

I think this is an important considersation.

 

A couple points that I think are valid:

 

1] The FO did not do anything other than Parker to add to the pen in the offseason. Smart or lucky, most of the guys available have had poor, mediocre or injury filled seasons thus far.

 

2] I absolutely believe part of their plan included Romero, Mejia, a couple other young guys, and a "30yo find" as part of their initial equation to build the pen and let Johnson work with them. Except for Harper, that has obviously fallen flat.

 

3] With a lead and so much production, and such a solid rotation, there is still time over the next few weeks for SOMEONE, pick a name, to step up their game and provide a fit. Littell moving to a RP role, for example.

 

But the cracks are showing. Something has to be done. And the FO is not blind, they know this.

 

If you reflect on some of the various trades they have made over the past couple of seasons, they haven't been afraid to eat portions of a contract in order to acquire better prospects back in the "outgoing" trades they have made. I think it's safe to believe they would be willing to eat some contract money on the reverse for an "incoming" trade.

 

To me, this speculation for additions, as well as extensions, is part of the reason payroll is where it is for now.

 

IMO, with such a deep system, with payroll flexibility, they will pay for an expiring contract and pay a little more...talking prospects here as well as dollars...for someone with at least a second year available.

 

Considering how well they have built this current team, I believe you will see a NAME we all know and someone we are not as familiar with. Their version of a Pressly. Or, if you will, a Nathan type, who was a young setup guy looking for opportunity.

[Tomj14]

 

Get Scherzer or Bumgarner, move Pineda to the bullpen.

I have to say I am confused on the move Pineda to the pen talk, he basically has been the model of consistency, 5 - 6 inning 0 - 3 runs. You know what you are going to get, not great, not terrible either. That is the perfect number 5 for this team. Now I understand the move Perez to the pen talk.

Go get Greinke, he seems like the best starter available and might cost the least amount of prospects.

[Blake]

 

I have to say I am confused on the move Pineda to the pen talk, he basically has been the model of consistency, 5 - 6 inning 0 - 3 runs. You know what you are going to get, not great, not terrible either. That is the perfect number 5 for this team. Now I understand the move Perez to the pen talk.

Go get Greinke, he seems like the best starter available and might cost the least amount of prospects.

I just wonder if it might be easier to get a front line starter versus a reliever. Especially if the starter is still owed a lot of money over the next couple of years. (a couple years left on the contract means this team may very well contend next year too)

 

Just tossing some spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks.

[USAFChief]

I think it was nicksaviking who suggested Ian Kennedy. After looking into it, I’m very interested. Owed $16.5m this year and next. Throwing pretty well,out of KC’s pen. Healthy and seemingly durable.

 

Roughly $25m left to pay for this tear and next. If you took on, say, $15m of that, I bet he’d be available for not much.

[Linus]

I think it was nicksaviking who suggested Ian Kennedy. After looking into it, I’m very interested. Owed $16.5m this year and next. Throwing pretty well,out of KC’s pen. Healthy and seemingly durable.

 

Roughly $25m left to pay for this tear and next. If you took on, say, $15m of that, I bet he’d be available for not much.

I like this too. If we would take on the whole contract KC would settle for essentially nothing

[h2oface]

Watching the FO skip the easy one in Kimbrel (just money, money from the richest owner in the MLB)), and now the roller coaster of Littell (back again), and Romero, and De Jong, and Adams, and Mejia, and the expected regression avalanche of McGill and Parker.......... and Hildenberger is not a solution..... I just hope it comes strong and quick. The whole of MLB is looking for the same thing. Time for the FO to swing for the fence and hit home runs, and not strike out. Nothing I say matters, and after debacle of trading Pressly and the non-signing of Kimbrel, I have nothing, and am struggling for confidence something exceptional with happen.

[Mr. Brooks]

I think it was nicksaviking who suggested Ian Kennedy. After looking into it, I’m very interested. Owed $16.5m this year and next. Throwing pretty well,out of KC’s pen. Healthy and seemingly durable.

 

Roughly $25m left to pay for this tear and next. If you took on, say, $15m of that, I bet he’d be available for not much.

I'd have to research if he's made some significant adjustments, or if it's just small sample size variance, because he's never been even close to this good before.

If it is something sustainable, I'd be very interested.

[nicksaviking]

I'd have to research if he's made some significant adjustments, or if it's just small sample size variance, because he's never been even close to this good before.

If it is something sustainable, I'd be very interested.

He’s found 3 MPH on his FB since the move to relief and can go multiple innings. I think he’s got a nice second career ahead of him in the pen.

[Soft Tosser]

I get frustrated with guys like Romero. Kinda wish they'd start at the beginning with these guys in rookie ball. Learn to control your fastball, don't even mess with other pitches until you do. It's been an organizational weakness for some time.

[jud6312]

The Angels just DFA'd Allen.

 

Given his lineage, it's almost guaranteed he's on his way, right?

[IndianaTwin]

 

The Angels just DFA'd Allen.

Given his lineage, it's almost guaranteed he's on his way, right?

 

This is where we swoop in and sign him, with us paying just the minimum and LA picking up the remainder of his salary right? 

 

With the added cost of putting Wes Johnson up for a week in Rochester to work out the kinks, that could be a great get.

 

 

[Linus]

Allen has stunk but at last has a track record of success. I would take a flyer

[jud6312]

 

Allen has stunk but at last has a track record of success. I would take a flyer

 

Good point ... better trade for him while he's in DFA limbo. Can't risk him getting to the open market.

[drivlikejehu]

Allen's velocity is way down and hitters are teeing off against his fastball. Unless the Twins see a particular mechanical flaw that would bring back velocity, he's not even worth a flier.

[Twodogs]

This lineup is miles above the lineups put out there in 87 and 91

I don't know if it is miles above 87, especially if you compare it to the rest of the leagues teams out there. In 87 not everyone was bashing homeruns left and right. The Twins were kind of an anomaly back then. Many teams were focused on speed not power, a la the St Louis Cardinals. There are a number of teams that can bash the ball like the Twins right now, Yankees, Astros, Dodgers, etc.... They are impressive abd have way better numbers than the 87 Twins but I think you kind of have to compare the numbers to the era. The 91 Twins I feel did it more with pitching than hitting. But the 87 Twins were hitting their way to the championship.

[Twodogs]

Allen has stunk but at last has a track record of success. I would take a flyer

I'd almost rather take a flier on Ryan Madson. Throw him in AA or AAA for a couple of weeks and see if he can help, he was lights out two years ago

[DocBauer]

He’s found 3 MPH on his FB since the move to relief and can go multiple innings. I think he’s got a nice second career ahead of him in the pen.

It's the strategy I wanted with Bucholz this year. Might stay healthier and re-inent himself in pen role

[yarnivek1972]

I don't know if it is miles above 87, especially if you compare it to the rest of the leagues teams out there. In 87 not everyone was bashing homeruns left and right. The Twins were kind of an anomaly back then. Many teams were focused on speed not power, a la the St Louis Cardinals. There are a number of teams that can bash the ball like the Twins right now, Yankees, Astros, Dodgers, etc.... They are impressive abd have way better numbers than the 87 Twins but I think you kind of have to compare the numbers to the era. The 91 Twins I feel did it more with pitching than hitting. But the 87 Twins were hitting their way to the championship.

Of course, as Reggie Jackson so delicately pointed out, the 87 Twins were a power hitting team playing on turf in what was at the time one of the deepest parks in MLB. That certainly made them an anomaly.

[DocBauer]

I felt like bringing life back to this thread again after the past few games and some reflection.

 

There is NO QUESTION the Twins need to make some moves/additions here. And that is NOT in debate. Nor is it debatable that a few plans the FO had in mind, Romero, Mejia, haven't materialized as hoped.

 

What I find so damn frustrating and even confusing is SSS examples of what could be! Duffey is actually showing signs of MAYBE being what we hoped he'd be. Bang on Harper if you want, but the guy has been pretty surprising and consistent. Magill teases, but he throws some nasty stuff. Lately, Littell looks like a completely different pitcher who could make a difference with a change in his role. Poppen comes up, with nerves dancing, and shows real ability, flash and potential for 2 IP before "taking one for the team" in a 3rd IP. Stewart comes up today and pitches 4 nice innings.

 

This wonderful team, even a little disoriented at the moment, is a wonderful club and a potential serious contender. And the pen is still the Achilles heel. Moves have to be made, and almost assuredly will be made. But what is so frustrating is it seems we may have at least a few arms...not even including May looking better all the time...that just may be about ready to really contribute going forward.

 

I feel the pen is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They have done enough to assist to one of the best records in all of MLB. There are signs of potential help. But is there enough time in the next 2-4 weeks to find 1 or 2 guys who we could actually trust? Do we still have to bring in at least 2 "proven" arms? And if so, are we potentially building a really nice pen for 2020?

 

Just re-opening this thread for thoughts and opinions.