Here we go again. Rangers "not respecting the game"

[laloesch]

 

This is ridiculous - and a big reason why I think the Twins need to make sure Brian Dozier isn't on the team next year, since he seems to be the main proponent of this kind of attitude. The "respect the game", the (white) baseball "tradition" mantra is never going to rally the young Twins core or get fans in the seats - particularly fans under 30 who are paying less and less attention to baseball.

 

The Twins getting mad at Profar for stealing a base, or Chance Sisco for bunting to beat the shift, literally tells fans that this game isn't worth watching anymore. It tells us that the players aren't trying anymore and if any of them show the audacity to keep trying - any excitement, any energy, any will to compete - they risk getting a 95 mph fastball thrown at their head. 

 

It's the same idea as when Jack Morris suggests that the only baseball worth watching was in the 80s - the message is to stop watching the game. 

 

How are the Twins going to build a winning culture if they insist on these strict rules for when it's okay - and when it's not okay - to compete?

 

the "(white) baseball tradition"?!?  What the heck is that?  Please elaborate further. I don't think respecting the game is "white" and what you stated screams racism and it's not okay.   

 

Putting all that aside I agree with you on Dozier.  I've never cared for how he handles himself in these situations nor his comments to the media.   Just play the damn game and shut your mouth.  I am also not particularly nostalgic of the 80's even-though the Twins won a world series in 87 and 91.  It's 2018 for heavens sake.   I also think Molitor looks weak. 

[S.]

 

It's one thing if you steal with those kind of scores in the 8th or 9th, it's different if it's before then.

It's perfectly fine regardless of the score and regardless of the inning. Just because you're up 8-0 in the 8th doesn't mean the other team can't score 9 runs in 2 innings. The whole, "you're up by too much, you need to stop trying as hard" unwritten rule is a crock of ****. These are professional athletes being paid hundreds of thousands to tens of millions of dollars a year. They should be busting their asses if they're up by 10 or down by 10, and the fact that they're getting worked up over the other team giving it 100% effort is an embarrassment to the organization. The fact that Molitor is making statements to defend it is an embarrassment to the organization. 

[nicksaviking]

Molitor had 504 career steals, just think how many he would have had had he ran when his team was up five. Of course if he DID ever run when up five, even once, he should keep his hypocritical trap shut.

 

And if he didn't ever do it and is just complaining about a guy who's been struggling in the league for six years and is desperate to impress in an effort to continue playing, he should also keep his trap shut.

 

Edit: May 12th 1998 Molitor stole 2nd up three in the bottom of the 8th. May 30th 1998 Molitor steals second in the 7th inning in a 7-1 game! Those were his 2nd and 4th attempts in his farewell season. I probably didn't need to even bother doing the research at all but I know I don't have to go further to call BS on his BS.

[olivia11]

 

the "(white) baseball tradition"?!?  What the heck is that?  Please elaborate further. I don't think respecting the game is "white" and what you stated screams racism and it's not okay.   

 

Putting all that aside I agree with you on Dozier.  I've never cared for how he handles himself in these situations nor his comments to the media.   Just play the damn game and shut your mouth.  I am also not particularly nostalgic of the 80's even-though the Twins won a world series in 87 and 91.  It's 2018 for heavens sake.   I also think Molitor looks weak. 

 

Describing something as "white" is not racist.

 

I'm simply referring to a time when very few non-white baseball players played in MLB and many these "rules" were established. What I was suggesting was that this "tradition" came about at a time when many people were excluded from baseball and baseball traditions that have been celebrated in other countries have just as much of a claim to legitimacy as the one developed in the US. 

 

For example, Brian Dozier got mad when Francisco Lindor celebrated his home run representing the technical "away" team during the Puerto Rico series. That does not go against "baseball's rules" or "disrespect the game". That goes against a very specific idea of baseball that was, once again, developed in the US during a time when very few non-white baseball players played. Puerto Rico's baseball "tradition" is just as legitimate. 

 

I'm simply suggesting that baseball should widen its horizons.

[TheLeviathan]

 

the "(white) baseball tradition"?!?  What the heck is that?  Please elaborate further. I don't think respecting the game is "white" and what you stated screams racism and it's not okay.   

 

 

The unwritten rules seem to be mostly driven by the old, white, male fan base and the older, white players in the league.  Mostly, not all.

 

Younger fans seem to agree that this form of "tradition" needs to go away.  With younger players it doesn't seem as clear.

[ashbury]

the "(white) baseball tradition"?!?  What the heck is that?  Please elaborate further. I don't think respecting the game is "white" and what you stated screams racism and it's not okay.    ...

 

Describing something as "white" is not racist.

Moderator's note: this is an aspect, of the brouhaha concerning the game, that deserves to be explored if members wish to, as long as everyone remembers to keep it respectful to one another and to the players as well. I do not want to wake up tomorrow and find that there's a mess that has to be cleaned up by the moderator team. Good night, all.

[ewen21]

 

I was coaching 15 year old's and my team was down something like 10-0 and the other team had a runner on third and my pitcher delivered a wild pitch. 

 

The kid on third started to break for the plate and the coach yelled out "No-No-No" and held up the stop sign and the kid returned to third confused. 

 

I called time and walked over to the coach and said... "Hey, I appreciate that but I just got done telling my guys to forget the scoreboard. I told them the score is 0-0 and I want you to win the rest of the game. Please don't stop playing baseball on our account because we won't be".

 

So, the coach allowed his team to play ball like I requested. The game ended up being kinda interesting if you took away the 10 runs we spotted them. I was proud of the kids. 

 

After the game, one of our parents who had no idea what was said between us was waiting in the parking lot to tell (scream at) (intimidate) the other coach exactly how classless he was and that ended up being the embarrassing part. 

Thank you for that.  Honestly.

 

If you are up by a lot and you act a fool celebrating and carrying on, that is one thing.  The idea that the Rangers needed to pump the brakes in the 4th inning because Molitor thought the lead was insurmountable really REALLY bothers me.

 

This is the mindset?  Roll over and give up when you are down 7 after you have been up just three times?  Wrong on so many levels.

 

I am actually sorry I started this thread, but I have a couple of text groups and it was blowing up today over this.  NO ONE felt the Rangers were wrong,  NO ONE.  There is a real disconnect between the fanbase of this team and the team.  This is such a loyal fan base, too.  Very forgiving and very supportive.  Twins fans almost never boo even though they could have.  But this stuff right here just doesn't wash away.  It is sad that Paul Molitor is the one making these complaints.  It wasn't anything like he was as a player.  He sounds like a guy who knows he can't get 100% out of his players.  Sad

[TheLeviathan]

Am I missing another quote from Molitor on this issue?  People are talking like he ripped Profar and I can't find anything like that.

[Riverbrian]

 

Am I missing another quote from Molitor on this issue?  People are talking like he ripped Profar and I can't find anything like that.

 

It might have been a case of Reed taking matters into his own hands.

 

I'm not aware of any direct link to Molitor ordering the hit. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

It might have been a case of Reed taking matters into his own hands.

 

I'm not aware of any direct link to Molitor ordering  the hit. 

 

Right and the only line from the story is that he was "surprised" that Profar stole.  The way people are talking, Molitor let loose about how inappropriate it was.  I don't see that.

 

I see a paragraph where Molitor was trying to explain the situation, not going after Profar.  Given that just a few days ago Escobar got plunked and there was a lot of "why didn't the Twins retaliate?" chatter...would it be shocking that a veteran reliever went out and hit the kid all on his own?

 

It also wouldn't be shocking if Molitor ordered it as a warped team-building/confidence gamble. 

 

But just my guess from that quote...it was Reed.  Molitor is trying to play coy with the press rather than say anything too direct about it and protect his player.

[nicksaviking]

Am I missing another quote from Molitor on this issue? People are talking like he ripped Profar and I can't find anything like that.

Molitor was explaining the beanings, his reasoning for the third was comical yet awful:

 

""The first one our pitcher (Jake Odorizzi) got his cleat caught in the dirt," Twins manager Paul Molitor said before Sunday's game. "The second one I think was a borderline strike. With the armor these guys wear, they don't worry about getting out of the way. And then the last time, we wanted to give him an opportunity to steal another base."

 

https://www.twincities.com/2018/06/24/is-byron-buxton-on-his-way-back-to-the-twins/

 

As good as admitting it was retaliation. I'm not sure why admitting as much isn't suspendable.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Molitor was explaining the beanings, his reasoning for the third was comical yet awful:

"And then the last time, we wanted to give him an opportunity to steal another base."

As good as admitting it was retaliation. I'm not sure why admitting as much isn't suspendable.

 

That certainly implies he was aware of the decision, thank you.  Hadn't seen anything other than the quote in the first post.

[Twodogs]

For one thing, the Twins didn't "try to dial him up three times," Bannister. The first two were clearly unintentional.

 

In fact, the second was nearly a strike, but Profar hung his arm out and got clipped.

 

Good for Molly and the Twins, if in fact there actually was intent with the third HBP.

I think it's a load of crap to tell some guy not to steal a base. I don't care if it's the 9th inning and they are up by 8 runs, if they aren't paying attention, then F them and steal the base.

 

On a second thought. I know Barry Bonds was one of the biggest noted plate crowders standing almost in the strike zone and such. He also wore a ton of body armor, I get it, it's their profession and one bad pitchin the wrong location can fracture some important little bones in the elbow and wrist that can be career threatening. So in no way would I ever say that a hitter should not wear body armor. However, I'm almost of the opinion that if a player gets hit in the body armor then just call it a ball and move on, if they get hit in a spot without body armor take first base.

 

I guess my thoughts come from when he was standing over the plate.

[launchingthrees]

I've followed a bunch of really bad teams over the years and I have never seen a bigger bunch of whining, dramatic, unfocused, and entitled players/manager. Not to mention they are also really bad at baseball. 

 

The idea that stealing in the 4th inning is against the spirit of the game is so ridiculous on its face its hard to believe they actually said it publicly. I'd be surprised if 5/1000 baseball fans would want their teams to stop trying because they have a 9-2 lead in the 4th. Profar's has 10 stolen bases in 1000 career PAs and he just waltzed to 2nd. That should be embarrassing.

 

Management: Please get what you can for our current players. Offer Dozier 0 dollars. Give Sano away to whoever wants the drama. Walk Molitor to his car and offer however much money it takes for him to go away. He can stare into the distance with a blank look on his face at his brand new lake house. I don't care. Just get rid of them. I have no problem watching 70 win teams but this is cringeworthy. 

[jokin]

 

The game ended with the tying run at the plate...

 

LoMO represented the winning run at the plate.

[jokin]

 

Molitor had 504 career steals, just think how many he would have had had he ran when his team was up five. Of course if he DID ever run when up five, even once, he should keep his hypocritical trap shut.

And if he didn't ever do it and is just complaining about a guy who's been struggling in the league for six years and is desperate to impress in an effort to continue playing, he should also keep his trap shut.

Edit: May 12th 1998 Molitor stole 2nd up three in the bottom of the 8th. May 30th 1998 Molitor steals second in the 7th inning in a 7-1 game! Those were his 2nd and 4th attempts in his farewell season. I probably didn't need to even bother doing the research at all but I know I don't have to go further to call BS on his BS.

 

Outstanding job, Nick. Much appreciated.

 

Now, if only our intrepid beat writers, on-air talent and columnists have the guts to call Molitor on every one of his hypocrisies in his management tenure- using the facts of his own career against his current actions.

[Riverbrian]

 

Molitor was explaining the beanings, his reasoning for the third was comical yet awful:

""The first one our pitcher (Jake Odorizzi) got his cleat caught in the dirt," Twins manager Paul Molitor said before Sunday's game. "The second one I think was a borderline strike. With the armor these guys wear, they don't worry about getting out of the way. And then the last time, we wanted to give him an opportunity to steal another base."

https://www.twincities.com/2018/06/24/is-byron-buxton-on-his-way-back-to-the-twins/

As good as admitting it was retaliation. I'm not sure why admitting as much isn't suspendable.

 

That is funny. 

 

If you are going to bean a guy... do it with a sense of humor is what I always say. 

 

 

BTW... I love the quotes from Busenitz. He'll look different to me after reading those quotes. 

[ewen21]

 

That certainly implies he was aware of the decision, thank you.  Hadn't seen anything other than the quote in the first post.

I read several articles on the matter in both the Dallas and MSP media.  Didn't link all of them, but I read everything there was to read on it.  That is usually what I like to do before I start a thread.  I don't start many of them and I want to be sure of my opinion before I offer one.  Especially on Molitor because I really liked him as a player and do not feel comfortable bashing him.

 

That said, Molitor is dead wrong if he expresses any sort of surprise or disgust toward an opposing player hustling in the fourth inning of a game.  We all know how the game ended and even after that Paul felt the need to mention that he was surprised Profar would do that considering the score.  That is enough for me.

[Number3]

Molitor should have been long gone after the 59-103 debacle. Instead he gets manager of the year for winning 85 games in a weak division and basically not showing up for the wild card game. Then he gets a contract extension basically for putting a uniform on. Nothing in this thread is surprising.

[laloesch]

 

The unwritten rules seem to be mostly driven by the old, white, male fan base and the older, white players in the league.  Mostly, not all.

 

Younger fans seem to agree that this form of "tradition" needs to go away.  With younger players it doesn't seem as clear.

 

And what are the unwritten rules exactly?  That everyone has to be stoic and silent and dare i say white?  Wow you folks really need to travel outside of Minnesota once in while.  Not all white people and more specifically white athletes are stoic and quiet. But apparently the self hating, self deprecating ones residing in the state think that.  

[Twodogs]

Yeah again this is crazy and it almost makes me embarrassed to be a Twins fan, like back when Dozier was all complaining about someone bunting into the hole while the Twins had a shift on. Well then if you are concerned about it, don't put on that stupid shift. If I was a manager and my players could make it happen they'd bunt into that hole all day long.

[nicksaviking]

Locking this one. There is another thread going about this, perhaps we can try again there with cooler heads. Mine included.