REPORT: Twins Lose JT Chargois On Waivers

[Otto von Ballpark]

FWIW, Dodgers have lowest waiver priority, so this means 28 of 29 teams passed on Chargois.

[Dman]

Granted I don't have the information the Front Office does about Chargios but frankly I am a little pissed.  Kinley better be one hell of a pitcher or I am going to be bitching all year about that move.  I get that there are probably Four guys in the minors possibly ahead of Chargios or close to him in Curtis, Busenitz, Moya, Jay and then maybe Duffy and May as well.  I get that you can't keep everybody and only so many relievers can stay on the 40 man but he really had a dominant season in AAA not that long ago.  It feels way to early to give up on him.

 

I hope I like the corresponding move or else I think this really sucks and was a poorly planned move.

[Dman]

 

FWIW, Dodgers have lowest waiver priority, so this means 28 of 29 teams passed on Chargois.

Yeah makes you wonder if they did it just to spite the Twins for not giving them Dozier for what they wanted.

[Mr. Brooks]

Granted I don't have the information the Front Office does about Chargios but frankly I am a little pissed. Kinley better be one hell of a pitcher or I am going to be bitching all year about that move. I get that there are probably Four guys in the minors possibly ahead of Chargios or close to him in Curtis, Busenitz, Moya, Jay and then maybe Duffy and May as well. I get that you can't keep everybody and only so many relievers can stay on the 40 man but he really had a dominant season in AAA not that long ago. It feels way to early to give up on him.

 

I hope I like the corresponding move or else I think this really sucks and was a poorly planned move.

I mean the guy can't stay healthy. You can't pitch from the trainer's room.

It sucks, but not every body can handle throwing a baseball really hard overhand. His can't.

[beckmt]

I am one who is not happy with this.  Feel the Twins have several other options without losing possible high level relievers.  

Burdi, Bard and now Chagois,  if all succeed I will be leading the pitchfork pack.

[maxisagod]

 

I am one who is not happy with this.  Feel the Twins have several other options without losing possible high level relievers.  

Burdi, Bard and now Chagois,  if all succeed I will be leading the pitchfork pack.

 

The wavier loses have sucked. The more you lose, the odds increase you lose some one special. I know the system is deep, but  this off season they seem to lose every minor league free agent and wavier post. 

[Dman]

 

I mean the guy can't stay healthy. You can't pitch from the trainer's room.
It sucks, but not every body can handle throwing a baseball really hard overhand. His can't.

We'll see.  He made it a whole season the year before with a 1.6 era and 41 K's in 36 innings in AAA.

 

Maybe you are right and his arm still isn't right but I haven't heard anything about his condition.

 

Maybe he is Alex Meyer II and if that is the case then it is probably time to move on I guess time will tell.

[Mr. Brooks]

We'll see. He made it a whole season the year before with a 1.6 era and 41 K's in 36 innings in AAA.

 

Maybe you are right and his arm still isn't right but I haven't heard anything about his condition.

 

Maybe he is Alex Meyer II and if that is the case then it is probably time to move on I guess time will tell.

Keep in mind he also made it to the last possible team before being claimed.

They probably thought they could sneak him through, and were almost right.

Even if Chargois does get healthy and make it, I still won't rip them for this one. There are only 40 roster spots, and it's kind of silly to suggest that they would cut someone they hand selected (Kinley, Sanchez), over an oft injured fringe holdover from the previous regime.

[ashbury]

Not necessarily. The Dodgers transferred Urias to the 60-day DL to add Chargois. They are now employing 41 players on their 40 man roster.

Bottom line,for me, is I want one simple change by MLB. If Team A doesn't want a player on the 40-man, Team B can take him and place him on theirs. If they later change their mind, maybe Team C takes him. And so on, and so on. But eventually, he gets waived and he finally passes through waivers; at that point, he should revert to team A's minor league system, not whichever team happened to be last. Same as if he had cleared waivers in the first place. For a calendar year, or until the next World Series, or something like that. That's the change. The player's interests are protected, for as long as someone wants to give him a 40-man spot, but the phony game-playing of Hot Potato no longer pays off.

 

The fact the Dodgers pick so low (he did almost make it through) only increases my suspicion this selection isn't for the player's own benefit, but just a way to grab a guy for their system for a year and see what happens.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

FWIW, Dodgers have lowest waiver priority, so this means 28 of 29 teams passed on Chargois.

Yeah makes you wonder if they did it just to spite the Twins for not giving them Dozier for what they wanted.

Q: Do the Dodgers enter the claim blind at the same time as other teams, or do they know they are "on the clock" and all other teams have passed to that point?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Bottom line,for me, is I want one simple change. If Team A doesn't want a player on the 40-man, Team B can take him and place him on theirs. If they later change their mind, maybe Team C takes him. And so on, and so on. But eventually, he gets waived and he finally passes through waivers; at that point, he should revert to team A's minor league system, not whichever team happened to be last. That's the change. The player's interests are protected, for as long as someone wants to give him a 40-man spot, but the phony game-playing of Hot Potato no longer pays off.

No, that doesn't protect the player's interest. It removes a potential benefit for the claiming team, thus making it less likely the player will be claimed at all. Would Chargois rather be outrighted by the Twins today, or potentially outrighted by the Dodgers 3 weeks from now? The latter, every time. Maybe an injury in the meantime opens up an opportunity elsewhere, and he can get claimed again; maybe Chargois gets a better audition by sticking around the major league camp. The player generally wants to be claimed as long as possible, and doesn't really care if they don't end up back with team A.

 

And is it really "hot potato"? The Twins have had full control over this particular "potato" for 5.5 years. They could have kept control longer rather easily, but chose not to -- we didn't even fill his vacated roster spot yet, plus we still have Kinley and somewhat unusually gave a premature spot to Sanchez. (Heck, the potato didn't even get to choose the Twins in the first place, thanks to the draft.) It can't really be that frustrating as a fan to just let him go now, can it? The Twins can always put in a claim for him if team B or team C decides to waive him again down the line -- do we really deserve any more rights to him, at this point?

 

No matter what system you devise, some guys are eventually going to be on the edge of it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Q: Do the Dodgers enter the claim blind at the same time as other teams, or do they know they are "on the clock" and all other teams have passed to that point?

Blind. At the end of the waiver period, the player is awarded to the claiming team with the highest priority.

[ashbury]

Blind. At the end of the waiver period, the player is awarded to the claiming team with the highest priority.

True. But they know the priority order, which means they know that IF their claim goes through, many teams did not put in a claim. That's actually useful knowledge.

[Otto von Ballpark]

If you want to make a change to the waiver system, it should not only affect the potential claiming teams, but also the waiving team. To that effect, if they let the player opt for free agency upon their first outright assignment, that would both deter teams from making "bogus claims" AND deter his original team from waiving him in the first place.

 

Although that could have the potential of putting more marginal players on the open market, and reducing the value of some. (Right now, some marginal guys can get their value boosted by limited supply in a similar way as MLB veterans get their value boosted by limited supplies of free agents. Just on an obviously lower scale. )

[old nurse]

 

From the link: "if a Draft-Excluded Player is not outrighted to the minors prior to the Rule 5 Draft, the player cannot be Designated for Assignment or sent outright to the minors any earlier than 20 days prior to the start of the MLB regular season."

Not that I think they would want to risk losing Slegers on waivers right now anyway -- with Ervin out, Slegers could be 6th on the SP depth chart if Sanchez doesn't stick. And that's including Hughes.

Of course, if they were signing another SP like Lynn, maybe they would consider it.

Slegers right now is probably pitcher number 6. Your first post you said 20 days prior to spring training. Why would I read the article when I thought you would quote it accurately? My bad

[KirbyDome89]

 

Granted I don't have the information the Front Office does about Chargios but frankly I am a little pissed.  Kinley better be one hell of a pitcher or I am going to be bitching all year about that move.  I get that there are probably Four guys in the minors possibly ahead of Chargios or close to him in Curtis, Busenitz, Moya, Jay and then maybe Duffy and May as well.  I get that you can't keep everybody and only so many relievers can stay on the 40 man but he really had a dominant season in AAA not that long ago.  It feels way to early to give up on him.

 

I hope I like the corresponding move or else I think this really sucks and was a poorly planned move.

Spot on.

 

There are reasons Bard, Chargois, Burdi, ect are fringe 40 man guys. I understand aren't always able to keep those type of players around. They'll lose some guys, and they'll find some guys. I think getting the pitchforks out for these kind of moves is probably turning a mole hill into a mountain. For me, it isn't so much about who left, as it is who was kept. I don't see any upside in keeping a 27 year old who hasn't even been good in AA on the 25 man. I hate the way they've used the Rule V so far. Hate it. I get that they're worried about Chargois health, but they can use the 60 day DL, and when he has been healthy we've seen Chargois dominate AAA. I've seen a few "can't pitch from the trainer's table comments," and that's true, but you can't throw major league innings if you're getting rocked in the minors either. Well, I guess you can if you're a Rule V pick and you're forced onto the 25 man roster...

[jimbo92107]

 

I think there might be two different arguments. Drafting relief pitchers and drafting hard throwers. 

 

The non-hard throwing relievers have actually been working out pretty well in Duffey, Rogers and Hildenberger. TBD on Reed.

 

And in all honesty, at the time I was only OK with the drafting hard throwing relievers exclusively because of the 'hard throwing' aspect which the team was sorely lacking. I still want to find that velocity somewhere, but I was wrong on that account I guess.

What sucks is how many draft picks the Twins spent on power arms, especially for the bullpen, and so far not one of them has panned out. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Spot on.

 

There are reasons Bard, Chargois, Burdi, ect are fringe 40 man guys. I understand aren't always able to keep those type of players around. They'll lose some guys, and they'll find some guys. I think getting the pitchforks out for these kind of moves is probably turning a mole hill into a mountain. For me, it isn't so much about who left, as it is who was kept. I don't see any upside in keeping a 27 year old who hasn't even been good in AA on the 25 man. I hate the way they've used the Rule V so far. Hate it. I get that they're worried about Chargois health, but they can use the 60 day DL, and when he has been healthy we've seen Chargois dominate AAA. I've seen a few "can't pitch from the trainer's table comments," and that's true, but you can't throw major league innings if you're getting rocked in the minors either. Well, I guess you can if you're a Rule V pick and you're forced onto the 25 man roster...

While I agree that the new front office has used the Rule V kinda inexplicably, what positive outcome comes from putting Chargois on the 60-day DL?

 

You end up with a guy out of options and no MLB experience at the end of the season. The guy pitched 2.2 innings last season. He had all of 35 innings at AAA the season before that.

 

I understand the frustration over the Rule V decisions, I don't get it either, but I simply don't see a place for Chargois on the 4-man roster in 2018 if he's injured AGAIN.

[KirbyDome89]

 

While I agree that the new front office has used the Rule V kinda inexplicably, what positive outcome comes from putting Chargois on the 60-day DL?

 

You end up with a guy out of options and no MLB experience at the end of the season. The guy pitched 2.2 innings last season. He had all of 35 innings at AAA the season before that.

 

I understand the frustration over the Rule V decisions, I don't get it either, but I simply don't see a place for Chargois on the 4-man roster in 2018 if he's injured AGAIN.

Is he hurt though? Honestly. I haven't read anything that definitely said he was/is injured and just this week he told Berardino "there's nothing physically wrong with me." I think he only used two option years so he should have another this season.

 

Sanchez and Duke are far from locks to perform over the first couple months, and even if they do there's still Enns, who looks completely expendable at this point. What do they have really have to lose? They get 60 days to evaluate the current pitchers and they don't have to burn a 40 man spot on Chargois. Idk if I'd call that a positive outcome, but I certainly don't see much downside to it. If he comes back and they decide he isn't worth a 40 man spot then they can waive him and they're in the exact same position they are now. All of that assumes he's hurt and the DL is even an option. If he isn't injured then waiving him now makes even less sense. 

 

I'm not saying the Twins are dumping a can't miss arm here, but I do think there's a stronger case for keeping an oft injured guy with that option and a pretty good minor league track record vs. a guy who is forced to be on the 25 man and has no options and no real success above high A ball. Neither is incredibly appealing but if I'm choosing I'll take Chargois. 

[Mr. Brooks]

Falvine hand picked Kinley, even knowing he was going to create 40 and 25 man issues like this.

They obviously think they see something there that can be fixed.

They might be completely wrong in that regard, but if they were going to dump him to keep an equally fringe prospect like Chargois, then they wouldn't have taken him in the first place.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Your first post you said 20 days prior to spring training. Why would I read the article when I thought you would quote it accurately?

Sorry, I just caught that now! My mistake.

[Otto von Ballpark]

what positive outcome comes from putting Chargois on the 60-day DL?

 

You end up with a guy out of options and no MLB experience at the end of the season.

Technically, Chargois wouldn't use an option while he is on the 60-day DL. Perhaps the theory would be, keep him for now on the 60-day DL and give him the first 2 months of the season to show he is healthy again -- although rehab is limited to 30 days, so you'd have to do April in extended spring training, then the month of May in AAA for rehab. Basically postponing this decision to June 1st or so, not unlike how some teams approach Rule 5 picks. If he couldn't stay healthy through June 1, you could leave him on the DL longer and preserve his option year for 2019 -- but of course, if he can't stay healthy again, you probably don't want him for 2019 either, option or not! But if he could stay healthy, you could decide on June 1st to activate him to MLB, or option him to AAA, and then decide to drop, say, Enns, or Kinley if he is still around, etc. instead, if you still need the 40-man spot.

 

Not that I endorse it, but I believe that is the alternative plan being suggested here.

[bean5302]

Chargois is healthy. According to him, there is no medical issue, and it was just a mechanical issue with his follow through which HE found after his release. Twins trainers and medical staff were apparently unable to figure the issue out.

 

https://www.twincities.com/2018/02/23/once-touted-reliever-j-t-chargois-lost-on-waivers-to-dodgers/

 

This was a huge failure. It doesn't matter if the first team claimed Chargois or the last team. The Twins were purposely coy about Chargois' health and it's not like Chargois has a screaming hot pedigree around the league. Teams are busy with free agents, their own rosters and Spring Training. The Twins gambled with a healthy, very talented, high ceiling arm. It was stupid and they got burned.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Is he hurt though? Honestly. I haven't read anything that definitely said he was/is injured and just this week he told Berardino "there's nothing physically wrong with me." I think he only used two option years so he should have another this season.

 

Sanchez and Duke are far from locks to perform over the first couple months, and even if they do there's still Enns, who looks completely expendable at this point. What do they have really have to lose? They get 60 days to evaluate the current pitchers and they don't have to burn a 40 man spot on Chargois. Idk if I'd call that a positive outcome, but I certainly don't see much downside to it. If he comes back and they decide he isn't worth a 40 man spot then they can waive him and they're in the exact same position they are now. All of that assumes he's hurt and the DL is even an option. If he isn't injured then waiving him now makes even less sense. 

 

I'm not saying the Twins are dumping a can't miss arm here, but I do think there's a stronger case for keeping an oft injured guy with that option and a pretty good minor league track record vs. a guy who is forced to be on the 25 man and has no options and no real success above high A ball. Neither is incredibly appealing but if I'm choosing I'll take Chargois. 

I thought he was injured but could be wrong.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Technically, Chargois wouldn't use an option while he is on the 60-day DL. Perhaps the theory would be, keep him for now on the 60-day DL and give him the first 2 months of the season to show he is healthy again -- although rehab is limited to 30 days, so you'd have to do April in extended spring training, then the month of May in AAA for rehab. Basically postponing this decision to June 1st or so, not unlike how some teams approach Rule 5 picks. If he couldn't stay healthy through June 1, you could leave him on the DL longer and preserve his option year for 2019 -- but of course, if he can't stay healthy again, you probably don't want him for 2019 either, option or not! But if he could stay healthy, you could decide on June 1st to activate him to MLB, or option him to AAA, and then decide to drop, say, Enns, or Kinley if he is still around, etc. instead, if you still need the 40-man spot.

Not that I endorse it, but I believe that is the alternative plan being suggested here.

Interesting. I assumed the 60 day DL triggered an option. Good to know, thanks.

[Dman]

 

Chargois is healthy. According to him, there is no medical issue, and it was just a mechanical issue with his follow through which HE found after his release. Twins trainers and medical staff were apparently unable to figure the issue out.

 

https://www.twincities.com/2018/02/23/once-touted-reliever-j-t-chargois-lost-on-waivers-to-dodgers/

 

This was a huge failure. It doesn't matter if the first team claimed Chargois or the last team. The Twins were purposely coy about Chargois' health and it's not like Chargois has a screaming hot pedigree around the league. Teams are busy with free agents, their own rosters and Spring Training. The Twins gambled with a healthy, very talented, high ceiling arm. It was stupid and they got burned.

I am going to hate seeing him play well for another team.  This front office has to stop the rule V nonsense.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Interesting. I assumed the 60 day DL triggered an option. Good to know, thanks.

Yup. MLB DL means the player is still in the majors, so no option is used. By the same token, Trevor May still has an option remaining, after spending all of 2017 on the DL.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I thought he was injured but could be wrong.

Yeah Idk man, you'd think there has to be something going on with the elbow but at the same time Idk why that wouldn't be divulged.  

[DodgerFan1234]

The only thing I can think of from the Twins FO is they figured most 40-man rosters were filled the first few days of spring training and could sneak Chargois through. It’s not the worst idea. Guys who can pump it hard but fail to stay healthy are hardly a rare commodity.

 

From the Dodgers perspective, the FO has a habit of throwing a bunch of pitchers with health issues against a wall and seeing what sticks. Morrow is a perfect example last year. Talk about a guy who couldn’t stay healthy but who could pump it up there much the same as Chargois. Same could be said of Hill and Wood before him. Blanton as well. But it hasn’t always worked out. Kazmir, McCarthy, and Brett Anderson were quite costly mistakes with known health issues. The Dodgers figure that if they get 5 pitchers with 80-level talent that can only stay healthy 20% of the time, then they have 1 80-level player in the end

[SwainZag]

 

Chargois is healthy. According to him, there is no medical issue, and it was just a mechanical issue with his follow through which HE found after his release. Twins trainers and medical staff were apparently unable to figure the issue out.

 

https://www.twincities.com/2018/02/23/once-touted-reliever-j-t-chargois-lost-on-waivers-to-dodgers/

 

This was a huge failure. It doesn't matter if the first team claimed Chargois or the last team. The Twins were purposely coy about Chargois' health and it's not like Chargois has a screaming hot pedigree around the league. Teams are busy with free agents, their own rosters and Spring Training. The Twins gambled with a healthy, very talented, high ceiling arm. It was stupid and they got burned.

 

I don't see how you can say they got burned and this was stupid and a failure without any future knowledge of what is going to happen with him.