General politics

[Squirrel]

 

The majority of these links say most illegal immigrants in our country are because of Visa overstays.  I am not disputing that.  I concede that point.

That was the point you asked me to support. If most of the illegal immigrants in this country are due to visa overstays, it means they entered legally, with a legal visa, at a legal point of entry. Many of those articles also say the numbers crossing the southern border illegally have gone DOWN, which further supports ... a wall is NOT necessary. Put that money to better and more efficient means to curb the rest.

[ewen21]

 

That was the point you asked me to support. If most of the illegal immigrants in this country are due to visa overstays, it means they entered legally, with a legal visa, at a legal point of entry. Many of those articles also say the numbers crossing the southern border illegally have gone DOWN, which further supports ... a wall is NOT necessary. Put that money to better and more efficient means to curb the r

Could you please bother to read what I said so you can understand me?  In the very post I asked for data I was trying to make it clear that my discussion is about the southern border and that this is entirely different discussion:

Do you now see that I am speaking primarily about the three Central American nations? I  figured this was clear from the outset, but by now I would hope you will concede that.  People who enter legally and overstay their Visa is another issue altogether. It is equally worthy of a discussion, but it shouldn't be used to sabotoge another discussion

 

I understand and know the data with people outstaying their Visa, but I have made it painfully clear that I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT.  That is another discussion.  Please stop for a second and acknowledge the massive numbers of detained illegals coming across from Central America.  I have posted the numbers again and again.  I guess you aren't going to see what you don't want to see but this comes from the freakin source.  It is real.  It isn't a fabrication in my mind:

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

 

Some facts imbedded in this data:

In March, 92,607 people were apprehended between ports of entry on the Southwest Border, compared with 66,884 in the month of February and 47,984 in January.

 

 

More information from US Customs and Border Protection.  Not some media outlet.  THe actual source:

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics

 

We are six months through their fiscal year of 2019 and already they have reported almost 365,000 apprehensions at the border.  This is just halfway through the fiscal year.  Add that with the number of inadmissibles and it is 504,864 in six months.  How in the world is that manageable or acceptable in your estimation?  We are just supposed to open the border while these people traipse through Mexico (infuriating scores of Mexicans)?

 

I have brought up the numbers a whole lot of times and you keep running to something else.  Forget about humanitarian aid, your ideas about racism and people overstaying their Visas.  Chew on the numbers I posted for a minute.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gunnarthor]

You didn't put those numbers in any context. The numbers of undocumented entries is far lower than it used to be. The increase in apprehensions between ports of entry is due to the administration preventing asylum seekers from entering as well as it's family separation policy.

 

So, since these numbers are lower than they used to be and the increase in apprehensions between ports of entry is due to the administration's policy of not allowing asylum seekers into the US, why should we pretend that this is some crisis? Or tolerate Trump using language suggesting that asylum seekers are lying or that we are being invaded?

[Squirrel]

Smurf - give me your Iowa take on this defection ...

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/24/716796405/blasting-trumps-unacceptable-behavior-iowa-lawmaker-leaves-gop-after-40-years?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20190424&fbclid=IwAR0eDOTPXQZpPhDc6t7-qHRvX4pQ5U5ggV-shEzX_yFRPZXmX9Sg3zKmDYw

[Brock Beauchamp]

I’m of the mindset that an adult is an adult. I hate this staggered 18/21 nonsense.

 

If someone can fight and die for this country and vote for its leaders, they should be allowed to have a drink.

 

Pick either 18 or 21, I really don’t care... but if someone is an adult, they should be given the rights of an actual adult.

[Mr. Brooks]

I’m of the mindset that an adult is an adult. I hate this staggered 18/21 nonsense.

 

If someone can fight and die for this country and vote for its leaders, they should be allowed to have a drink.

 

Pick either 18 or 21, I really don’t care... but if someone is an adult, they should be given the rights of an actual adult.

As far as I know, they are given all the rights of an adult.

Drinking and smoking are not rights.

[Badsmerf]

Smurf - give me your Iowa take on this defection ...

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/24/716796405/blasting-trumps-unacceptable-behavior-iowa-lawmaker-leaves-gop-after-40-years?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20190424&fbclid=IwAR0eDOTPXQZpPhDc6t7-qHRvX4pQ5U5ggV-shEzX_yFRPZXmX9Sg3zKmDYw

The Iowa gop has been pushing a far right agenda since 2010. Rural areas are getting older, whiter, less educated, less populated. Metro areas are the complete opposite. Part of my motivation to move is the direction the state as a whole is heading.

 

People think Iowa can flip... I don't. The state just elected a bad governor over a great Democrat candidate.

[PseudoSABR]

 

As far as I know, they are given all the rights of an adult.
Drinking and smoking are not rights.

Nor is the ability to serve one's country.  The issue does't turn on whether something is a right or not. 

[Mike Sixel]

Now we're just going to let known Russian spies go free....

[LaBombo]

 

Now we're just going to let known Russian spies go free....

 

Under the size limit? Let'em grow and maybe it's a keeper next time.

[ewen21]

 

You didn't put those numbers in any context. The numbers of undocumented entries is far lower than it used to be. The increase in apprehensions between ports of entry is due to the administration preventing asylum seekers from entering as well as it's family separation policy.

 

So, since these numbers are lower than they used to be and the increase in apprehensions between ports of entry is due to the administration's policy of not allowing asylum seekers into the US, why should we pretend that this is some crisis? Or tolerate Trump using language suggesting that asylum seekers are lying or that we are being invaded?

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/19_0416_hsac-emergency-interim-report.pdf

As the findings in our report reflect, the large-scale influx of FMUs is new, having increased dramatically in the last year by 600%. Over 53,000 FMU were apprehended last month alone by the Border Patrol, and at the current trajectory, that number of FMU apprehensions is likely to exceed 500,000 in Fiscal Year (FY) 2019.

After being held for several days at inadequate and overcrowded holding areas at USBP stations, most of the adults -- provided they have a child with them and have stated that they fear returning to their country of origin -- are issued Notices to Appear (NTA) at a later time before an immigration judge somewhere in the U.S. and then dropped at a local bus station or delivered to already overwhelmed non-profit shelters. The NTA, combined with long delays in the adjudication of asylum claims, means that these migrants are guaranteed several years of living (and in most cases working) in the U.S. Even if the asylum hearing and appeals ultimately go against the migrant, he or she still has the practical option of simply remaining in the U.S. illegally, where the odds of being caught and removed remain very low.  A consequence of this broken system, driven by grossly inadequate detention space for family units and a shortage of transportation resources, is a massive increase in illegal crossings of our borders, almost entirely driven by the increase in FMU migration from Central America.

 

Please try to stay current.  Your claims above explicitly state that the reason why there are more illegals now is "due to the administration's policy of not allowing asylum seekers into the US"

You are a smart guy, but Homeland Security doesn't see it the way you do.

 

I think problem is you are slow to acknowledge what's been happening these last six months or so.  I did not see this as an issue a year ago.  It is now.  Unless you think the Homeland Security reported I linked as complete nonsense.  

[ewen21]

Longtime NY Times columnist Thomas Freidman"

"The whole day left me more certain than ever that we have a real immigration crisis and that the solution is a high wall with a big gate — but a smart gate."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/23/opinion/trump-immigration-border-wall.html

 

He also cites a brilliant essay published in the April issue of Atlantic, by David Frum:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/04/david-frum-how-much-immigration-is-too-much/583252/

The title of the essay is "If Liberals Won't enforce Border, Fascists Will"

 

More than a few people here insisted there wasn't a crisis and it was more a product of Donald Trump's fertile imagination and racist tendencies, but the Homeland Security report released last week tells a different story.  Denying there is an issue at this point is irresponsible.  

 

"Central American asylum seekers say they are fleeing crime in their home countries. Yet asylum-seeking has surged even as crime in Central America has subsided. El Salvador’s homicide rate has dropped by half since 2015; Honduras’s has plunged by 75 percent since 2013. As these asylum seekers have settled in the United States, they have beckoned their families to follow. U.S. adjudicators have rejected the vast majority of Central American asylum applications. But that has not diminished the flow from Central America. The process is slow, and a rejected application can be appealed. As the proceedings grind on, asylum seekers can vanish into diaspora communities where they can find housing, work, and welcome.
The asylum seekers are advancing their interests and those of their families as best they can. Americans have the same responsibility to do what is best for Americans. A smaller immigration intake would dramatically slow the growth in the foreign-born share of the population, better shielding democratic political systems from extremist authoritarian reactions."

 

The takeaway from these two pieces I've posted here is that intelligent liberal columnists and essay writers are no starting to implore registered democrats to cut the crap and wake up.   Get more informed on this issue and don't be governed by your hatred of Trump--which assumes everything he says is garbage and completely devoid of facts.  Some aspects of what he's said on immigration is money.  I thought his tone and approach to immigration on the campaign trail was off-putting.  It was enough to keep me from voting for him.

 

I sincerely hope some here who said there was no crisis have woken up.  It isn't too late

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stringer bell]

I don't trust word one from the Trump administration. Every administration tries to put themselves in the best light, but this administration has thrown truth and facts out the window. Trump has put loyalty over competency in every position. He continues to tell untruth after untruth on nearly every topic. He has dumped anyone who dares to stand up to him, including Homeland Security. If truth and facts are not essential to the boss, why should they be important to anyone who works for him? 

[ewen21]

I don't trust word one from the Trump administration. Every administration tries to put themselves in the best light, but this administration has thrown truth and facts out the window. Trump has put loyalty over competency in every position. He continues to tell untruth after untruth on nearly every topic. He has dumped anyone who dares to stand up to him, including Homeland Security. If truth and facts are not essential to the boss, why should they be important to anyone who works for him?

Are the facts essential to you? Did you bother to read any of the 3 links I posted on immigration at the border? All links are under two weeks old. One is a report from Homeland Security released last week. The other two were published by two well-establish left of center publications that are highly critical of Trump.

 

Take Trump out of the discussion for just a minute. Read what the Homeland Security tells us. They are the same people you said Trump took a dump on. Then read the Freidman article in the Times. The dude has written for the Times FOREVER. He went on the Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer and said he was, "as radically pro-immigration as they come". Yet because he actually went down there to see the situation he's come to another conclusion

 

Get off Trump for a minute, people.

[stringer bell]

It is impossible to "get off of Trump". He makes it that way. Everything is about him.

 

As for the "border crisis", the president may well have created this crisis and I strongly disagree with his proposed solution. He is the guy that labeled those attempting to get into this country as gang members, murderers and rapists. He is the one saying there is "no room" when there are help wanted signs all over the place. He is the one claiming that his opponents want open borders. 

 

As I said above, I don't trust numbers from Homeland Security in the Trump administration. There is ample reason to doubt just about anything this administration proclaims. 

 

I do believe there is an immigration problem for this country. I believe the asylum policy is a part of the larger immigration policy's problems. 

 

Building a wall solves nothing and sends a message that we don't want brown people in this country. That might make the right-wing base feel like America is great again, but I think they are wrong. 

 

Congress and Trump need comprehensive immigration reform. Trump's actions have widened and hardened the gap.

 

 

[Squirrel]

 

While I agree with the sentiment here; I think we are in the General Politics thread and not in the Trump thread.

Ooops ... you are right ... will delete.

[ewen21]

 

It is impossible to "get off of Trump". He makes it that way. Everything is about him.

 

As for the "border crisis", the president may well have created this crisis and I strongly disagree with his proposed solution. He is the guy that labeled those attempting to get into this country as gang members, murderers and rapists. He is the one saying there is "no room" when there are help wanted signs all over the place. He is the one claiming that his opponents want open borders. 

 

As I said above, I don't trust numbers from Homeland Security in the Trump administration. There is ample reason to doubt just about anything this administration proclaims. 

 

I cherry picked the news to make sure it either came from long standing liberal outposts or from the source itself!  LOL

 

If you won't read the information provided by Homeland Security or left of center publications like the Atlantic and the NY Times then where are you getting your information?  

 

 

[biggentleben]

 

I don't trust word one from the Trump administration. Every administration tries to put themselves in the best light, but this administration has thrown truth and facts out the window. Trump has put loyalty over competency in every position. He continues to tell untruth after untruth on nearly every topic. He has dumped anyone who dares to stand up to him, including Homeland Security. If truth and facts are not essential to the boss, why should they be important to anyone who works for him? 

 

When Ann Coulter is calling you out...yeah.

[Badsmerf]

Again, creating a wall and throwing money at the symptom will not solve the problem. It isn't a crises, it is a problem. Humans are resourceful, imaginative, and intelligent. A wall will never stand in the way of what some see as life and death. I know it wouldn't for me.... I'd break every rule, be detained, deported, demeaned, if I thought I could be free and safe at the end. Desperation has no deterrent.

 

Want to solve immigration? Solve the problem. Help fix these countries. Create trade policies that help the economies. Send troops to solidify the law. Make an attempt to treat these counties, and the people living in them, with dignity.

 

Trump can't solve this problem. I don't trust Republicans to solve this problem. Democrats are too worried about irrelevant topics to solve this problem. Older generations don't have the empathy to solve this problem. My generation will be the ones to solve it, as well as clean up the mess we've been left over the last 50 years of failed policies and catering to corporations.

[biggentleben]

 

Again, creating a wall and throwing money at the symptom will not solve the problem. It isn't a crises, it is a problem. Humans are resourceful, imaginative, and intelligent. A wall will never stand in the way of what some see as life and death. I know it wouldn't for me.... I'd break every rule, be detained, deported, demeaned, if I thought I could be free and safe at the end. Desperation has no deterrent.

Want to solve immigration? Solve the problem. Help fix these countries. Create trade policies that help the economies. Send troops to solidify the law. Make an attempt to treat these counties, and the people living in them, with dignity.

Trump can't solve this problem. I don't trust Republicans to solve this problem. Democrats are too worried about irrelevant topics to solve this problem. Older generations don't have the empathy to solve this problem. My generation will be the ones to solve it, as well as clean up the mess we've been left over the last 50 years of failed policies and catering to corporations.

 

I had lunch with a refugee from what used to be Burma this week. He talked about studying English in the refugee camp because they were praying to come to America. Now he's teaching his parents, who are both very hard workers at their jobs, even though they do not speak as they understand the language well. He's helped his family to buy a home for 7 of them to live in a 2-bedroom home and now he's purchased his own 2-bedroom home. If you ask him, he's living a dream life compared to the horrors of the refugee camps, something he can relate to as we hear about the terrible conditions of the Muslim refugee camps from the area right now and the possibility that those people may be forced back to their country.

 

He's already gained his US citizenship, as have his sister and 2 cousins that are "younger". His parents, aunt, and grandparents are all working toward that and want to do the same, though he lost his uncle in the refugee camp, so he knows it's feasible that his grandparents never get the chance.

 

People leaving a horrific situation aren't looking for a handout. They're looking for a chance, and like Smerf said, they're willing to risk life and limb to get away from what they're fleeing for many reasons. Address those reasons rather than vilify the refugees themselves.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Want to solve immigration? Solve the problem. Help fix these countries. Create trade policies that help the economies. Send troops to solidify the law. Make an attempt to treat these counties, and the people living in them, with dignity.

I think people are looking for justification in vilifying a certain subgroup rather than actually wanting to solve the problem.  As I said, we could hold people accountable who hire illegal with strict criminal liability, and plenty of others have offered ideas as well, and largely the good ideas have been ignored in favor of putting on a spotlight on the problem, and keeping that spotlight there so the anger is justified.  

[ewen21]

 

I think people are looking for justification in vilifying a certain subgroup rather than actually wanting to solve the problem.  As I said, we could hold people accountable who hire illegal with strict criminal liability, and plenty of others have offered ideas as well, and largely the good ideas have been ignored in favor of putting on a spotlight on the problem, and keeping that spotlight there so the anger is justified.  

If you want to go on a crusade to prosecute those who employ illegals then what do we do with the illegals working for them?  SO we arrest the boss and what happens to the worker?  I guess they find another job so you can arrest the next employer that hires them,and so on and so on.

 

If they are being hired and you arrest employers for hiring them what else are they to be call but illegals?

[PseudoSABR]

 

If you want to go on a crusade to prosecute those who employ illegals then what do we do with the illegals working for them?  SO we arrest the boss and what happens to the worker?  I guess they find another job so you can arrest the next employer that hires them,and so on and so on.

 

If they are being hired and you arrest employers for hiring them what else are they to be call but illegals?

Obviously you deport those individuals.  And these are precisely the kind of people you can call illegal, as opposed to those seeking asylum (whom earlier on seemed to get combined with actual illegal immigrants under the label of "illegals"). 

 

By the way, credit where credit is due: Thanks for engaging me through responding to my post substantively. 

[ewen21]

 

Obviously you deport those individuals.  And these are precisely the kind of people you can call illegal, as opposed to those seeking asylum (whom earlier on seemed to get combined with actual illegal immigrants under the label of "illegals"). 

 

By the way, credit where credit is due: Thanks for engaging me through responding to my post substantively. 

Sticking with the substantive issue, can we then call those crossing the border seeking to get detained then released Illegal immigrants (even if they are seeking asylum)?

 

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Sticking with the substantive issue, can we then call those crossing the border seeking to get detained then released Illegal immigrants (even if they are seeking asylum)?

My issue is their motive. Yes, technically they are illegal. But they probably didn't have the motive to be illegal (they don't know that the proper way to request asylum is at a port of entry).  As such, I don't want to lump them in with the people that jump the border to just make more money than in their home country.  I'm not sure what to call them, but they are not as bad as illegal workers and not as good as asylum seekers who go to ports of entry).  

[ewen21]

My issue there is motive. Yes, technically they are illegal. But they probably didn't have the motive to be illegal (they don't know that the proper way to request asylum is at a port of entry). As such, I don't want to lump them in with the people that jump the boarder to just make more money than their home country. I'm not sure what to call them, but they are not as bad as illegal workers and not as good as asylum seekers who go to ports of entry).

Thank you for this. I actually wanted to talk about immigration because I'm challenged by it. I'll try and explain more later if I can

[Badsmerf]

Thank you for this. I actually wanted to talk about immigration because I'm challenged by it. I'll try and explain more later if I can

Why are you challenged by it?

 

I'm a huge proponent of putting the smack down on companies that employ illegal immigrants. If you can't get a job without basis documentation, we wouldn't have this problem. It also puts them at the mercy of an employer, and forces them to accept a wage below the standard for the job.

 

On the other hand, I vehemently disagree that illegal immigrants are sucking up federal dollars. Most pay taxes and never see the benefits of being a citizen. This is why we need comprehensive immigration reform, and solutions to problems not symptoms.

[Squirrel]

 

This is why we need solutions to problems not symptoms.

This should be the mantra.

[ewen21]

This should be the mantra.

I agree and that's what I'm shooting for

[ewen21]

 

Why are you challenged by it?

I'm a huge proponent of putting the smack down on companies that employ illegal immigrants. If you can't get a job without basis documentation, we wouldn't have this problem. It also puts them at the mercy of an employer, and forces them to accept a wage below the standard for the job.

On the other hand, I vehemently disagree that illegal immigrants are sucking up federal dollars. Most pay taxes and never see the benefits of being a citizen. This is why we need comprehensive immigration reform, and solutions to problems not symptoms.

I am challenged by it on a personal level.  I teach (and have taught) students whose parents are undocumented.  I spend entire school years getting attached to my students and work with some of them after school.  Most of the ones I work with after school are children of immigrants (or immigrants themselves).  A student of mine earlier this week who I worked with after school started talking to me about how his parents walked from Ecuador years ago.  From ECUADOR and it took them 14 months. I worked with this kid's older brother in the same way several years ago.  The mother has made tremendous progress learning the language.....and they are great people.

Given my stance on this issue, do you now see where I am challenged?  I have been grappling with guilt over some of the things I have said and posted here and yet I am trying earnestly to stick with the facts.  I am reading the most current stuff from Homeland Security and left of center publications.  I am not speaking in hyperbole MOST of the time here.

 

What you say about busting hard on employers of illegals needs to be done.   Yet you say nothing about what happens to the illegal who loses the job as a result.  Also, if this policy should be implemented with more force you are acknowledging there are lots of illegals and yet you can't say the word.  It is what it is and, honestly, they do created a great drain on our economy.  All illegals can't own homes so they don't pay real estate tax.  They also work off the books so they don't pay income tax.  They get free hospital visits.  Just how much this amounts to I have no idea, but to say they aren't sucking up federal dollars is pretty myopic.  They are not part of "the system" so therefore they don't pay into it.