General politics

[ewen21]

To talk about root causes doesn't get to the matter at hand. It's lip service.

 

It's like telling a kid who broke his neck skateboarding he should have been safer. No kidding we could do work to help there, but what does it do for the issue now?

 

Who's to say our relief will have the kind of impact you envision?

[gunnarthor]

 

The border has been a problem for a long time. If people can cross the border without going through the process, get detained, screened, set loose inside America with a pending court date not in the foreseeable future....
That's a problem. It's a problem that in 2014 52,000 unaccompanied children crossed the border.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna147601

How can putting up a wall and posing a merit system (not advocating it, but Canada uses one) not going have an impact? A wall means there is someone on the other side, not a greeter. A wall means you can come in but only on our terms. If they HAVE TO follow the same process Africans, Asains and Europeans do we aren't in this situation. This isn't a race thing, as some here try to suggest. They found a soft spot in our immigration process and it emboldens (and compels them) to do this. I'd feel the same way if Italians, Irish and Poles did the same thing. Please someone tell me they don't believe me, and please stop alluding to race.

I don't understand why some folks are so challenged by enforcing laws rather than a system that creates a loophole for people simply because of geography. It's totally unmanageable and if you don't believe me look into what Mexicans think this situation.

Trump spoke about a problem which ALREADY EXISTED. His rhetoric didn't somehow create this problem. He's trying to fix the problem and the democrats can't/won't/haven't come up with a perscription. They are too busy focusing on the Mueller Report

It's nice that you found out that Obama's immigration policies in 2014 were horrible. Immigration advocates attacked Obama quite hard, including calling him the deporter in chief well before 2014. And it wasn't until Sen. Rubio spoke up about a potential GOP plan to help dreamers that Obama even consider DACA. But Trump's policies aren't even following the law which is why the Courts are repeatedly finding his actions unconstitutional towards the boarder and asylum seekers. Further, Trump isn't facing the scale of immigration (documented and undocumented) that Obama and Bush dealt with. Trump is stirring up anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim passions and doesn't have any credible plans to deal with his "problem" because there really isn't a problem at all.

 

Trump is racist. His comments about people from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Muslims, Africa, the Central Park five, President Obama and Charlottesville have long put that issue to rest. Whether or not people can support him knowing that is up to those individuals. Ignoring that is also up to them but doesn't change the fact that Trump is racist and pushes a racist agenda.

[ewen21]

This HE'S SO RACIST! pretty much says to me that you won't have a rational conversation about immigration.

 

You say "there isn't a problem" and this says to me you haven't explored the situation at all. There is no way you can pretend a problem doesn't exist if you actually spend time researching what's gone down over the last several years.

 

Pretending nothing is wrong isn't going to make the issue go away.

[Squirrel]

This HE'S SO RACIST! pretty much says to me that you won't have a rational conversation about immigration.

You say "there isn't a problem" and this says to me you haven't explored the situation at all. There is no way you can pretend a problem doesn't exist if you actually spend time researching what's gone down over the last several years.

Pretending nothing is wrong isn't going to make the issue go away.

Who is pretending there isn’t a problem? Who even said that? Just because some of us think a wall is a very bad idea and that Trump is a horrible human being, doesn’t mean we don’t think there isn’t an issue. Many have acknowledged there is and we’ve offered our opinions of solutions.

[ewen21]

 

Trump is stirring up anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim passions and doesn't have any credible plans to deal with his "problem" because there really isn't a problem at all.

 

.

Carole.....are you seriously asking me this?  

 

You thanked post that contained exactly this inside of it just the post before mine.

[ewen21]

 

Who is pretending there isn’t a problem? Who even said that? 

This is what you asked me

[Mr. Brooks]

The border has been a problem for a long time. If people can cross the border without going through the process, get detained, screened, set loose inside America with a pending court date not in the foreseeable future....

That's a problem. It's a problem that in 2014 52,000 unaccompanied children crossed the border.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna147601

 

How can putting up a wall and posing a merit system (not advocating it, but Canada uses one) not going have an impact? A wall means there is someone on the other side, not a greeter. A wall means you can come in but only on our terms. If they HAVE TO follow the same process Africans, Asains and Europeans do we aren't in this situation. This isn't a race thing, as some here try to suggest. They found a soft spot in our immigration process and it emboldens (and compels them) to do this. I'd feel the same way if Italians, Irish and Poles did the same thing. Please someone tell me they don't believe me, and please stop alluding to race.

 

I don't understand why some folks are so challenged by enforcing laws rather than a system that creates a loophole for people simply because of geography. It's totally unmanageable and if you don't believe me look into what Mexicans think this situation.

 

Trump spoke about a problem which ALREADY EXISTED. His rhetoric didn't somehow create this problem. He's trying to fix the problem and the democrats can't/won't/haven't come up with a perscription. They are too busy focusing on the Mueller Report

Because humans long ago evolved to the point that walls don't work. Walls do a fine job keeping animals out, though even animals often figure out that they can just dig under it.

When humans come across a wall, they don't just throw their hands up and turn around. They go over, under, or around it.

I'm not ideologically opposed to enforcing our borders, I've made that clear previously. But a wall is a massive waste of money.

Unmanned aerial vehicles, communicating with mobile ground units would be more effective and much cheaper.

Build that wall rolls of the tongue easier as a campaign slogan, other than that it's useless and impractical.

[ewen21]

 

The majority of illegal immigrants in this country cross LEGALLY and stay beyond their allowed time. So, if you want to start there, that’s a good place to start. Illegal border crossings is simply not the crux of the problem.

Do you now see that I am speaking primarily about the three Central American nations?  I figured this was clear from the outset, but by now I would hope you will concede that.  People who enter legally and overstay their Visa is another issue altogether.  It is equally worthy of a discussion, but it shouldn't be used to sabotoge another discussion.  

 

At this point I need to ask where is your data on bolded part.  These people in question are crossing illegally and in record numbers.  You don't see this with people from Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Ghana, Thailand, the Philipenes, etc..This is why I am not talking about those countries or European nations or Australians, etc..  It's another issue 

 

This is about our SOUTHERN BORDER.  The crisis exists simply because they can cross on foot.  They don't need to deal with TSA or need to fly.  They deal with border patrol and antequated laws which allows them to manipulate our system.  They cross without any intention of doing it legally or going through the process because they know they are simply detained and have an excellent chance of being released.

(I cited the NY Times on that point if you doubt my credibility)

 

I think Trump is right.  There needs to be a DETERRENT and a wall helps.  It is unfortunate that it's come to that, but if you can't see the problem that isn't everyone else's problem.  Go talk to people in Mexico and ask them what they think of the caravans of people coming though their country.  Speak to those living in and near border towns--many of them immigrants or born of immigrants.  This situation is entirely different and it has morphed into something bad.

 

If anyone feels racist simply talking about it then I really don't even know what to say to them.  Stop being so paralyzed by a word.  This has nothing to do with race

[ewen21]

 

Because humans long ago evolved to the point that walls don't work. Walls do a fine job keeping animals out, though even animals often figure out that they can just dig under it.
When humans come across a wall, they don't just throw their hands up and turn around. They go over, under, or around it.
 

Your concept of a border wall and my concept of a border wall are clearly different.  We have stringent laws for people who fly from one state to another.  I am in Florida right now. I could not have flown here going through TSA and providing them with valid ID.  

 

What is wrong with having enforcement on that level?  Build a continuous wall with no breaches and have secured doors that only open when armed law enforcement open them.  Have armed border patrol ready to apprehend those who attempt to go over, under or around the wall and deport them.

 

Game over.

[Mr. Brooks]

Your concept of a border wall and my concept of a border wall are clearly different. We have stringent laws for people who fly from one state to another. I am in Florida right now. I could not have flown here going through TSA and providing them with valid ID.

 

What is wrong with having enforcement on that level? Build a continuous wall with no breaches and have secured doors that only open when armed law enforcement open them. Have armed border patrol ready to apprehend those who attempt to go over, under or around the wall and deport them.

 

Game over.

How many border patrol officers are you going to need to watch every single mile of the wall?

How far can each one see in each direction?

Multiply all those thousands of agents times three shifts per day, times annual salary and benefits, then add the cost of the wall. It's astronomical and impractical.

 

You can cover far more ground with far less manpower by using UAV and mobile ground units.

[Craig Arko]

I see the United Constitutional Patriots have an opening for a management position. May be right in somebody’s wheelhouse.

[gunnarthor]

 

This HE'S SO RACIST! pretty much says to me that you won't have a rational conversation about immigration.

 

Recognizing that Trump is racist is rationale. He is, he has a long track record. You can ignore it and demonize those who do not but that doesn't change the fact. As others have stated, Trump hasn't come up with a single rational idea about immigration, instead trying to scare and hype the issue for his base. 

[Craig Arko]

Build bridges, not walls.

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/13/713092703/cellist-yo-yo-ma-plays-bach-in-shadow-of-border-crossing

[Squirrel]

  

 

At this point I need to ask where is your data on bolded part.  These people in question are crossing illegally and in record numbers.  You don't see this with people from Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Ghana, Thailand, the Philipenes, etc..This is why I am not talking about those countries or European nations or Australians, etc..  It's another issue 

 

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/683662691/where-does-illegal-immigration-mostly-occur-heres-what-the-data-tell-us

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/08/your-fact-checking-cheat-sheet-trumps-immigration-address/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.90132c4e4ee3

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/visa-overstays-outnumber-illegal-border-crossings-trend-expected-continue-n730216

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/us/illegal-immigrants-population-study.html

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/08/despite-trumps-claims-most-illegal-immigration-is-not-at-the-southern-border.html

 

https://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/border-illegal-immigration-visa-overstays

 

https://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2018/aug/24/kevin-mccarthy/mostly-true-visa-overstays-account-half-all-people/

[Squirrel]

Build bridges, not walls.

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/13/713092703/cellist-yo-yo-ma-plays-bach-in-shadow-of-border-crossing

Music, the universal language.

 

Yo Yo is one of the most genuine people I’ve ever met.

[Craig Arko]

Happy Earth Day. Enjoy it while you still can.

[stringer bell]

This is a politics thread, so I'll stick to the politics of this issue. Perhaps we could have another thread to discuss the problems and history of illegal immigration to have a clearer view of the entire issue. As a political issue, it has been pretty minor until the most strident opponent of illegal immigration got the nomination and won the presidency.

 

Trump hung his hat on characterizing those in this country illegally as violent criminals, animals, marauders. The "solution" of building a wall is ridiculous (IMHO) and doesn't solve the problem. As a political strategy, these stances feed the right wing base and give encouragement to xenophobes and racists, who have found their way into the mainstream of the Republican party. 

 

Trump's lies and exaggerations have made a situation into a crisis. He singlehandedly caused a government shutdown, his administration is treating each and every soul seeking asylum like they are criminals and militarizing the border. Honestly, I don't know if the increase of traffic coming to the border is a pushback or if the chaos in Mexico and Central America is so bad that being detained in the US is the better option. 

 

I do believe illegal immigration needs to be addressed and with Congress hopelessly deadlocked on just about every issue, it will take a lot of effort to get anything done. I also believe Donald Trump and the Republican party have done nothing to solve the problem, but plenty to stoke fear and hate. 

[ewen21]

En route to the airport. I'll have plenty to say later after I check out all of Carole's links.

 

i promise I'll read as much as I can, but I honestly don't believe most of you read the links and videos I provided (if response to said items are any indication)

 

This HE'S RACIST stuff needs to be put on the shelf just once if we are going to have an actual discussion. It has nothing to do with how we got in this situation and what needs to be done so please try to give it a rest

[gunnarthor]

 

This HE'S RACIST stuff needs to be put on the shelf just once if we are going to have an actual discussion. It has nothing to do with how we got in this situation and what needs to be done so please try to give it a rest

Of course it's why we got to this situation. Ignoring racism doesn't work but just encourages more of it. As a society, we need to shine a light on this and not let politicians get away with this type of behavior. For example, Joe Arpaio violated the rights of thousands of people because we ignored his racist agenda and accepted his excuses for far too long. We have to stop making those mistakes.

[ewen21]

American "racism" isn't why the three Central American countries are among the countries with the highest murder rates in the world. Nor is it the reason why antiquated systems are still in place at the border.

 

Keep running interference with the race card, though

[Squirrel]

American "racism" isn't why the three Central American countries are among the countries with the highest murder rates in the world. Nor is it the reason why antiquated systems are still in place at the border.

Keep running interference with the race card, though

And building a wall is also an antiquated system. The suggestion Mr. Brooks suggested would be far better than spending billions on a wall. What, exactly, are your reasons for wanting so badly to keep these people out?

[Craig Arko]

[gunnarthor]

 

American "racism" isn't why the three Central American countries are among the countries with the highest murder rates in the world. Nor is it the reason why antiquated systems are still in place at the border.

Keep running interference with the race card, though

Trump's racism is why he and others are vilifying those running from those countries.

[ewen21]

I want to stop the flow of illegals coming into this country at the southern border because it has created an untenable situation on several different levels.

 

You keep saying "these people" as though I have a beef with Hispanic people. You make THAT the issue and it's kind of a cheap tactic.

 

As I said before, I will outline the things you've ignored once again when k get home. I will also attempt to respond to your links. I need time to read them and I'm actually about to take off for Albany in a few. When I get settled in at home tonight I will come back here.

 

This discussion is far too important.

 

...And from my perspective it has nothing to do with race. Inject it into the conversation whenever you want but I'm not interested in it. I said plenty in the privilege and responsibility thread if you want to respond to me there

[PseudoSABR]

If we want to stop illegal immigration, let's hold accountable those people who hire them.  As long as there is demand for illegal labor, people will keep coming.  If they can't find work here, there's no reason for them to be here, and they will leave, or seek public help and be deported. 

 

I say we hold such employers with criminal strict liability--that is, they need not even know if a person is illegal, and still be charged with a crime.  This would create an affirmative duty to verify someone's identity before hiring them.

 

An anecdote, I worked at restaurant 20 years ago, the INS (before Homeland Security) found out some of the prep cooks and dishwashers had fake social security cards, so the Chef had to fire them all, but he told them as soon as they had new fake social security cards, he'd rehire them, which he did; they were still working there nearly a year later.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

I wouldn't have guessed you as an arbitrary line kind of guy Mike.

If it really is just because of that line to you, perhaps a solution would be to stop declaring a moment of adulthood altogether.
Just assign each right, privilege, and responsibility on it's own individual basis. I mean we actually already do that.
We have different ages for when you can start working part time, when you can start working full time, when you can drive supervised, when you can drive unsupervised, when you must pay taxes, when you can be sentenced to prison, when you can vote, when you can drink, when you can rent a car, when you can run for president, when you can get a senior discount, when you can collect benefits.

Let's scrap this silly idea that you suddenly morph into an adult at midnight on your eighteenth birthday, and keep using common sense like we mostly already do, just without the official title.

 

It's an interesting question......and, it's stupid adults can't rent cars. I'm surprised there hasn't been a class action suit over that. But it is an interesting question you raise.

[biggentleben]

 

Do you now see that I am speaking primarily about the three Central American nations?  I figured this was clear from the outset, but by now I would hope you will concede that.  People who enter legally and overstay their Visa is another issue altogether.  It is equally worthy of a discussion, but it shouldn't be used to sabotoge another discussion.  

 

At this point I need to ask where is your data on bolded part.  These people in question are crossing illegally and in record numbers.  You don't see this with people from Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Ghana, Thailand, the Philipenes, etc..This is why I am not talking about those countries or European nations or Australians, etc..  It's another issue 

 

This is about our SOUTHERN BORDER.  The crisis exists simply because they can cross on foot.  They don't need to deal with TSA or need to fly.  They deal with border patrol and antequated laws which allows them to manipulate our system.  They cross without any intention of doing it legally or going through the process because they know they are simply detained and have an excellent chance of being released.

(I cited the NY Times on that point if you doubt my credibility)

 

I think Trump is right.  There needs to be a DETERRENT and a wall helps.  It is unfortunate that it's come to that, but if you can't see the problem that isn't everyone else's problem.  Go talk to people in Mexico and ask them what they think of the caravans of people coming though their country.  Speak to those living in and near border towns--many of them immigrants or born of immigrants.  This situation is entirely different and it has morphed into something bad.

 

If anyone feels racist simply talking about it then I really don't even know what to say to them.  Stop being so paralyzed by a word.  This has nothing to do with race

 

You should watch the most recent Firing Line episode that had Ann Coulter on.

 

Completely independent, up-to-date stats have a majority of illegal immigrants in the country coming from overstayed visas that were originally obtained legally.

[biggentleben]

 

If we want to stop illegal immigration, let's hold accountable those people who hire them.  As long as there is demand for illegal labor, people will keep coming.  If they can't find work here, there's no reason for them to be here, and they will leave, or seek public help and be deported. 

 

I say we hold such employers with criminal strict liability--that is, they need not even know if a person is illegal, and still be charged with a crime.  This would create an affirmative duty to verify someone's identity before hiring them.

 

An anecdote, I worked at restaurant 20 years ago, the INS (before Homeland Security) found out some of the prep cooks and dishwashers had fake social security cards, so the Chef had to fire them all, but he told them as soon as they had new fake social security cards, he'd rehire them, which he did; they were still working there nearly a year later.  

 

I'm not an Ann Coulter fan by any means, but her interview on Firing Line was very intriguing. She has some very good ideas on immigration (specifically some mentioned in this post regarding those who hire and the type of skills that are desired. We lament the continued disparity of classes, but if those who hire for menial labor jobs are able to hire very cheap labor by hiring undocumented labor and that undocumented labor force is then able to send billions of dollars out of the economy unchecked, that's a major angle that contributes to the "crisis" of the situation. If there was a "speed pass" at the gate for those with a certain skill base, would different people be coming to the country? What if the money they made would be taxed heavily if they transferred it out of country? 

 

I'm not sure the answer, which is why I ask. There are legitimate questions here. None of them have been approached by the current administration. Tweets that attack positions are not a position.

[Mr. Brooks]

It's an interesting question......and, it's stupid adults can't rent cars. I'm surprised there hasn't been a class action suit over that. But it is an interesting question you raise.

What would the basis of the lawsuit be? Renting a car isn't a right, neither is smoking.

And it's already concretely established that a minimum age, unlike a maximum age, is not discriminatory.

Even a maximum age isn't necessarily discriminatory, such as mandatory retirement ages for state judges.

The minimum age to rent a car is based on factual risk assessment, which is different than denying service to a race or religion, etc.

[ewen21]

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/683662691/where-does-illegal-immigration-mostly-occur-heres-what-the-data-tell-us

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/08/your-fact-checking-cheat-sheet-trumps-immigration-address/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.90132c4e4ee3

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/visa-overstays-outnumber-illegal-border-crossings-trend-expected-continue-n730216

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/us/illegal-immigrants-population-study.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/08/despite-trumps-claims-most-illegal-immigration-is-not-at-the-southern-border.html

https://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/border-illegal-immigration-visa-overstays

https://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2018/aug/24/kevin-mccarthy/mostly-true-visa-overstays-account-half-all-people/

The majority of these links say most illegal immigrants in our country are because of Visa overstays.  I am not disputing that.  I concede that point.