Rosario

[USAFChief]

 

Yeah, we're probably defining "surplus" differently. If I was GM, we'd have a philosophical and strategic discipline in place that would guide decision-making. One of the components would be to define "surplus" as more than one asset available for a position of equal quality in 2018. I personally don't think Granite, Palka, Grossman, or anyone else would be regarded by the team as equal in quality to Rosario. Under my adept management, Rosario would not be a proactive trade candidate and would go only if an exception made sense by virtue of someone's stupid offer. 

Under my adept management, part of that equation could also include trading an OFer--say Rosario-- and backfilling the OF with a FA.   

[adorduan]

 

Under my adept management, part of that equation could also include trading an OFer--say Rosario-- and backfilling the OF with a FA.   

Are you willing to trade Kepler? He seems to be a sacred cow around here, even though he hasn't really progressed much this year.

[USAFChief]

 

Are you willing to trade Kepler? He seems to be a sacred cow around here, even though he hasn't really progressed much this year.

For the right return, sure.   The Twins need to upgrade the pitching.  That's going to be tough enough as it is without ruling out trading some asset(s).  

 

I'd like to add at least one legit RH bat next year.  RF is as good as any other spot.

[bird]

 

Under my adept management, part of that equation could also include trading an OFer--say Rosario-- and backfilling the OF with a FA.   

I'm with you if you reverse the order, and might otherwise call you out for mismanagement. But yes, with anyone in place of equal or better value, we can adeptly co-manage. I'd prefer they spend the FA budget on the best FA starting pitcher they can convince to talk to them. Rosario hardly poses a problem, right?

[USAFChief]

 

I'm with you if you reverse the order, and might otherwise call you out for mismanagement. But yes, with anyone in place of equal or better value, we can adeptly co-manage. I'd prefer they spend the FA budget on the best FA starting pitcher they can convince to talk to them. Rosario hardly poses a problem, right?

Do both.  They need more than "the best FA starting pitcher they can convince to talk to them."

 

 

[bird]

 

Do both.  They need more than "the best FA starting pitcher they can convince to talk to them."

 

 

Do both and then do what with Rosario? I might quibble and say they NEED a FA starter and a second starter via trade, whereas they might WANT a RH corner OF via FA. Maybe the right guy is available in FA, I don't know, but I wonder if Rosario, like Hicks before him, would fetch a paltry return right now and then continue to mature as a player and haunt us.

[snepp]

 

Under my adept management, part of that equation could also include trading an OFer--say Rosario-- and backfilling the OF with a FA.   

 

I'd have no problem with this if Rosario brought back meaningful return. Signing a respectable enough corner outfielder has to be easier (and I suspect) cheaper than an equivalent starting pitcher.

 

 

I just balk at the idea that a guy who obviously has message board worthy problems with his game can so easily acquire high quality/potential starting pitching,

[Doomtints]

 

I just balk at the idea that a guy who obviously has message board worthy problems with his game

 

That might be setting the lowest bar possible. You may as well not even have a bar as the very tip top surface of it is flush with the floor. The bar is frigging invisible.

[Brock Beauchamp]

That might be setting the lowest bar possible. You may as well not even have a bar as the very tip top surface of it is flush with the floor. The bar is frigging invisible.

Yeah, more than one person suggested releasing Rosario four months ago.

 

It was funny at the time but is absolutely hilarious now.

[Bark's Lounge]

I think Rosario is going to keep getting better. He is a core member of this team's nucleus. He has the it factor. People might damn him, but he will prove everyone wrong.

[jimmer]

 

 People might damn him, but he will prove everyone wrong.

I hope so, cause it'd be great for our team! He sure is doing his best to do so this year!

[Twinfan & Dad]

Isn't baseball a great game. A guy grounds into a double play to end a game resulting in a loss. Fans call for his head. A few days later the same player drives in 4 and plays a major role in the win. I love this game. Rosario is still learning the game but the fact is he may just be a free swinging bad ball hitter. Does anybody remember a guy by the name of Manny Sanguillen? Not a bad career and a guy who would swing at balls way out of the strike zone. Unconvential? Maddening? Frustrating? Successful?

[Rosterman]

You factor in who do the Twins replace the guy with. In 2019 it would br Granite/Palka. Down the road might be Lamont Wade or Edgar Corcino. They might have someone else 3-4 years out.

 

Then it becomes a factor of money. What happens when he has a couple of seasons like 2017 and hits arbitration. How high will you go.? Do you start making choices between him and Kepler as long-term team parts.

 

He's a commodity that you can amrket if you can get equal or better value. But how many teams could use him and overpay the Twins?

[Ebby Calvin Laloosh]

I had a similar discussion about Eddie with another fan a few weeks ago. It's so frustrating after 16 OF assists and a solid stick in his rookie year he showed all the tools you could want. Then it looked like his brain might have failed him. It just looked like he was not playing smart at all. Hacking away at goofy pitches, throwing the ball wherever he felt like (I think he thinks he can throw everyone out, anywhere). It's just so frustrating that it's easy to overreact. I said "I'm done with Eddie." then bamo, the Eddie I thought we were getting in 2015 shows back up and absolutely sparks this little WC run (at least at the plate). I over-reacted to Eddies frustrating mistakes because it felt right. I see the error in my ways now. 

 

Also, isn't improved defense a major reason this team isn't an embarrassment like last year? Trading Eddie and trotting out Grossman wont help that.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Does anybody remember a guy by the name of Manny Sanguillen? Not a bad career and a guy who would swing at balls way out of the strike zone. Unconvential? Maddening? Frustrating? Successful?

Sanguillen was a catcher, so I'd guess it didn't matter as much that his approach may have limited his offensive ceiling (career 102 OPS+). Also his career K rate was only 6.2%, so he was more of a contact guy, even for his era.

[Twinfan & Dad]

My point on the Sanguillen comparison was to give an example that bad ball hitters have been successful in the past. I remember watching him in the 70's and be totally frustrated at some of the pitches he would go after. Yes he was a contact hitter but he did have his fair share of critics. Anaysts would discuss how a catcher who sits behind the plate and calls the game, could have such a wide strike zone offensively.

[stringer bell]

Offensively, there has been great improvement in Rosario's game. Defensively and on the bases, I think that he has regressed--many more off-line throws and to the wrong bases, low percentage attempts to advance--perhaps because his aggressiveness as a rookie surprised some people. Overall, this is easily his best season and he's third on the team in long balls.

 

I believe Kepler will eventually be the better player, probably as soon as next year, but I think the team would have to get an overwhelming offer before they parted with him.

[DaveW]

Yeah you would need to get a SP under team control for 2-3 years who is a "true" #2 (ie better than Santana and Berrios)

[adorduan]

 

Offensively, there has been great improvement in Rosario's game. Defensively and on the bases, I think that he has regressed--many more off-line throws and to the wrong bases, low percentage attempts to advance--perhaps because his aggressiveness as a rookie surprised some people. Overall, this is easily his best season and he's third on the team in long balls.

 

I believe Kepler will eventually be the better player, probably as soon as next year, but I think the team would have to get an overwhelming offer before they parted with him.

Kepler needs to figure out how to hit lefthanders if he's ever gonna be better that Rosario.

[adorduan]

 

You factor in who do the Twins replace the guy with. In 2019 it would br Granite/Palka. Down the road might be Lamont Wade or Edgar Corcino. They might have someone else 3-4 years out.

 

Then it becomes a factor of money. What happens when he has a couple of seasons like 2017 and hits arbitration. How high will you go.? Do you start making choices between him and Kepler as long-term team parts.

 

He's a commodity that you can amrket if you can get equal or better value. But how many teams could use him and overpay the Twins?

Granite's bat will never play out in left field.  And Kepler needs to learn to hit lefthanders.

[AustinW]

I think it would be foolish to trade a 25 year old with a +.800 ops who is about to enter his prime which will be in team controlled years. He is also an average defender, which is all you need in the corner when you have the best defensive centerfielder in the majors.

 

He is also a good chemistry guy on a team that has mostly come up together through the minors together and seem to love playing together.

 

Rosario is the x-factor on this team and I don't think the return would be worth his value for us.

[jorgenswest]

I am not sure how much demand there is for a corner OF.

 

At last trade deadline, it was almost entirely pitchers. J.D. Martinez was moved. He didn't net any pitchers in return. The return was 3 infielders a long way from the majors. I certainly would want more for Rosario and Martinez is the better player today.

 

Pitching is a premium followed by catching, shortstop and centerfield. There will be little demand and more supply everywhere else.

[yarnivek1972]

I am not sure how much demand there is for a corner OF.

 

At last trade deadline, it was almost entirely pitchers. J.D. Martinez was moved. He didn't net any pitchers in return. The return was 3 infielders a long way from the majors. I certainly would want more for Rosario and Martinez is the better player today.

 

Pitching is a premium followed by catching, shortstop and centerfield. There will be little demand and more supply everywhere else.

This. Exactly. It sure is easy to say "trade Rosario for pitching". The problem is teams are pretty reluctant to trade good, controllable pitchers.

[howeda7]

There is no reason to be trading our young core players unless there is absolute log jam somewhere. There isn't in the OF. Palka could prove a useful platoon with Kepler but we don't need to be opening up 600 ABs for him.

 

And the Rosario/Delmon comparison is ridiculous. Delmon's biggest issues were that he was a complete joke on defense and he was a lazy jerk. Neither of those things are true of Rosario.

 

Finally as usual, folks manage to simultaneously crap on a player AND over-estimate his trade value at the same time. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Palka could prove a useful platoon with Kepler but we don't need to be opening up 600 ABs for him.

I think you're getting that mixed up somehow. Part of the problem is Palka's a defensively challenged LHB. Kepler is a defensively competent LHB. You'd be replacing Kepler with the same problems, only worse.

[howeda7]

 

I think you're getting that mixed up somehow. Part of the problem is Palka's a defensively challenged LHB. Kepler is a defensively competent LHB. You'd be replacing Kepler with the same problems, only worse.

Oops. I thought Palka was RH. Another reason someone like Rajai Davis would make a lot of sense. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Oops. I thought Palka was RH. Another reason someone like Rajai Davis would make a lot of sense. 

Yeah, a RH bat is a good route to take this offseason. The Twins don't really have anyone close to Minnesota who projects as a competent RH offensive threat.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I am not sure how much demand there is for a corner OF.

At last trade deadline, it was almost entirely pitchers. J.D. Martinez was moved. He didn't net any pitchers in return. The return was 3 infielders a long way from the majors. I certainly would want more for Rosario and Martinez is the better player today.

Pitching is a premium followed by catching, shortstop and centerfield. There will be little demand and more supply everywhere else.

 

I think we forget that Eddie would be a CF on this team if it wasn't for some guy named Buxton. He's probably average in CF, but his bat would play without question. I'm fine with him sitting in a corner spot putting up an .800+ OPS while playing above average defense.  Yeah, the boneheaded plays are frustrating, but truthfully that's a factor more of age/maturity than anything else. Those will drop over time.

 

He's 25. He's cheap. He will post an .800 OPS this year while being an above average defender. There is no obvious replacement in the minors, and I don't know what FA options are available, but the good ones will get taken long before a team gives up pitching to get Rosario. I don't get the angst here. We aren't going to have Mike Trout at every position. I'm certainly fine dangling him for pitching help (though I'd rather just spend the money in FA), but Rosario is one of the reasons this team is good. He's not one of the guys dragging it down.

[jorgenswest]

Being able to start and play an average CF through his prime would definitely make Rosario more valuable.

 

The metrics don't suggest he should be a starting CF. He has fallen to the level of an average LF. When compared to the group of CF instead of LF he wouldn't be close to average. Maybe the metrics are incorrect but it is hard to imagine teams targeting him for their CF spot the next 3-4 years.

 

The reality is that pitching is at such a high premium that it is hard to get major league pitching without trading quality young minor league pitching. Average corner outfielders aren't far enough above replacement level to expect a good pitching return.

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm not sure what metrics suggest that Rosario could play average center field. Most show him to be average to below average in a corner spot.

 

In fact, it would be a no brainer to trade him if anyone thought he was capable of average CF play, since his OPS as an average defensive centerfielder would have nearly every GM in baseball knocking on our door to trade for him.