Go get Verlander

[amjgt]

First, they would have pulled him back if claimed. And second, as a 10/5 guy, yes you still need his permission to claim him off waivers.

Right. Of course he still would have had a say, but with FAR less leverage. Also it would've likely taken less from the Twins, in terms of prospects, since the Tigers also would've lost leverage. I don't know when Verlander was sent through waivers. It was likely long before we would've had any interest because of our terrific August, but, if the Twins wanted him, there was a scenario that would have given us a far greater opportunity.

[Major League Ready]

 

Name the two pitchers that Falvine should target this winter. Two that will be equal to Kluber/Arrieta in 2018.

Because What I think actually is common among fans is to post "find the next Kluber." Which sounds great, but has zero actual practical application. Everyone wants to do that. Depending on doing that isn't a plan for success, it's akin to purchasing a powerball ticket as a means to feed your family.

 

You are missing the point which was conceptual.  The fan perspective (concept) that it's better to just go for it is DEEPLY flawed which is where the saying "sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't make".  The most valuable deals are break-out players or prospects.   They cost little, return big and don't carry the risk (opportunity cost) associated with big names. 

 

I actually think acquiring Verlander had a good risk/return ratio.  He seems to be a good candidate to maintain effectiveness later in his career and we would only be on the hook for 2 years as compared to some of these deals that go to age 37 or later.  I just think it's a moot point because he was not willing to come here.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Do we really know that Verlander did not want to come here?

 

He let it be known he would waive his clause for an opportunity to pitch in the postseason. I get it. But it's not the same thing as him saying he didn't want to come to Minnesota.

[Doomtints]

 

Do we really know that Verlander did not want to come here?

He let it be known he would waive his clause for an opportunity to pitch in the postseason. I get it. But it's not the same thing as him saying he didn't want to come to Minnesota.

 

Look at the pitcher the Twins picked up at the deadline. They weren't looking for someone like Verlander. They were looking for someone to fill out the back end of the rotation. This was the right move, as good as this team was, they're not close enough to go "all in" quite yet. The Astros are in a different place.

[laloesch]

 

That's a far higher price than the Astros paid. Not even close.

 

Then what would it have taken?  They got a top pitching prospect, a catcher and an outfielder for Verlander.  

[USAFChief]

 

Then what would it have taken?  They got a top pitching prospect, a catcher and an outfielder for Verlander.  

https://www.minorleagueball.com/2017/9/2/16246702/prospects-justin-verlander-trade-astros-tigers

 

A Tiger blog's take on the three prospects.

 

Nice prospects, young, nothing particularly special about any of the three.  Perez, the pitcher, headlines the package, generally regarded to project as a #3 big league starter.

 

If the Twins couldn't have matched or exceeded that package, they have no minor league system to speak of.

 

 

[drjim]

 

https://www.minorleagueball.com/2017/9/2/16246702/prospects-justin-verlander-trade-astros-tigers

 

A Tiger blog's take on the three prospects.

 

Nice prospects, young, nothing particularly special about any of the three.  Perez, the pitcher, headlines the package, generally regarded to project as a #3 big league starter.

 

If the Twins couldn't have matched or exceeded that package, they have no minor league system to speak of.

 

Depending on taste, Perez is better than any pitching prospect the Twins have.

 

Gordon is probably higher regarded, but that is really all they could have offered to exceed it, unless the Tigers value floor (Mejia/Gonsalves) over Perez's upside.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Look at the pitcher the Twins picked up at the deadline. They weren't looking for someone like Verlander. They were looking for someone to fill out the back end of the rotation. This was the right move, as good as this team was, they're not close enough to go "all in" quite yet. The Astros are in a different place.

I was hoping your reply had a link to where Verlander said "I do not want to play in Minnesota"

 

[Squirrel]

I was hoping your reply had a link to where Verlander said "I do not want to play in Minnesota"

And I’d like to see the link where he said, ‘Yes, Minnesota is on my list.’ These statements go both ways and do nothing to bolster either argument. My assumption is he didn’t or we would have been in the mix of interested teams ... call that blind faith if you will, but not making a play if this were true wouldn’t have made any sense. And if he did say he’d play here and we didn’t go for him, then I’d agree, as I’ve said before, this wasn’t just a missed opportunity but a major fail. But we’ll never know for sure one way or another. And we’ll never know for sure if an inquiry was made or not.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

And I’d like to see the link where he said, ‘Yes, Minnesota is on my list.’ 

Maybe at the same link where he said 'Yes, Houston is on my list'    

 

All I remember about Verlander's personal feelings on it is that he didn't want to be traded, but that he was willing to waive his no trade clause to go to a team in the postseason. That was construed as Verlander specifically not wanting to play in Minnesota. 

 

[Doomtints]

 

I was hoping your reply had a link to where Verlander said "I do not want to play in Minnesota"

 

Overall he probably wouldn't care, though I imagine the Twins aren't his favorite team I'm sure he recognizes that the Twins are on the upswing.

 

My point is I'm betting these conversations never took place. Detroit probably did not want him to go to a division rival, the Twins were probably not his #1 choice, and the Twins probably weren't looking for someone like Verlander. I would be shocked if there were any significant conversations and there probably weren't any conversations at all.

[mickeymental]

so maybe franklin perez is who the twins should go after?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Then what would it have taken?  

Gonsalves and Gordon should have gotten the job done with some room to spare. One top 100 and one top 50 guy. That's more than the Astros gave up.

 

But really, what it would have taken is Verlander saying he'd be open to coming to Minnesota, which was likely the real deal-breaker.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Overall he probably wouldn't care, though I imagine the Twins aren't his favorite team I'm sure he recognizes that the Twins are on the upswing.

 

My point is I'm betting these conversations never took place. Detroit probably did not want him to go to a division rival, the Twins were probably not his #1 choice, and the Twins probably weren't looking for someone like Verlander. I would be shocked if there were any significant conversations and there probably weren't any conversations at all.

I agree with all of that.

[laloesch]

 

Gonsalves and Gordon should have gotten the job done with some room to spare. One top 100 and one top 50 guy. That's more than the Astros gave up.

 

But really, what it would have taken is Verlander saying he'd be open to coming to Minnesota, which was likely the real deal-breaker.

 

I would have made that deal.  I think losing Gordon would hurt more long term than Gonsalves who i think has been over-hyped a bit, but i could be wrong.  I also don't think Verlander would have put us over the top in a best of five or seven against the Astros or Indians.  But it's a moot point because i don't think he ever wanted to go to Minnesota nor i doubt  the owners and FO were ever interested in making a deal for him considering what he's owed over the remainder of his deal.

[USAFChief]

 

Gonsalves and Gordon should have gotten the job done with some room to spare. One top 100 and one top 50 guy. That's more than the Astros gave up.

 

But really, what it would have taken is Verlander saying he'd be open to coming to Minnesota, which was likely the real deal-breaker.

possibly.  To me more likely is, the Twins never seriously inquired.

[nicksaviking]

possibly.  To me more likely is, the Twins never seriously inquired.

Why do you think that though if Verlander literally took until the last possible minute to be convinced to accept a trade to a team with an enormously more covetable all around outlook?

[prouster]

 

Name the two pitchers that Falvine should target this winter. Two that will be equal to Kluber/Arrieta in 2018.

Because What I think actually is common among fans is to post "find the next Kluber." Which sounds great, but has zero actual practical application. Everyone wants to do that. Depending on doing that isn't a plan for success, it's akin to purchasing a powerball ticket as a means to feed your family.

 

Not saying he'll be as good as either, but Jake Odorizzi might be an interesting trade target. He wasn't good at all this year, but that comes after a couple solid seasons. He was highly regarded as a prospect and may benefit from a change of scenery. What's best, he's under control for two more seasons and wouldn't cost much in prospects compared to other options.

 

I'm definitely not saying he'll blossom into a top of the rotation starter, just that he could be a quality buy-low candidate. If it doesn't work, they won't be crippled for the next half decade.

[Major League Ready]

 

possibly.  To me more likely is, the Twins never seriously inquired.

 

 Players do not like to be traded.  That's why they bargained for it to be their choice.  There was no financial gain for Verlander and a very low probability of going deep into the playoffs.  I have no idea if Verlander would accept a trade to the Twins but I certainly would not take a hard stance on such an assumption with no validation, especially when the circumstances suggest he would have better options.  I certainly would not assume that the people running the organization just don't get it. 

 

I too think it would have been a decent trade.  However, I am certainly not going to assume the FO is incompetent because a deal did not get done.   I guess its fun to assume we know about running a baseball team than baseball executives.  I am pretty darn sure the position would not command salaries of multiple millions/year if there we so many people around capable of doing the job.

[old nurse]

 

https://www.minorleagueball.com/2017/9/2/16246702/prospects-justin-verlander-trade-astros-tigers

 

A Tiger blog's take on the three prospects.

 

Nice prospects, young, nothing particularly special about any of the three.  Perez, the pitcher, headlines the package, generally regarded to project as a #3 big league starter.

 

If the Twins couldn't have matched or exceeded that package, they have no minor league system to speak of.

As any trade would involve Verlanders approval , there is one thing that escapes the Trade For Verlander crowd.  Verlander wanted to go to a WS contender, not pretender.  The Dodgers were his first choice, the Cubs were his second. He had to be persuaded to go to Houston. Verlander by the end of his contract will have made over 220 million.  I don't think more money would have swayed him. He's got Kate Upton,  I don't think Minnesota has anything to beat that.   You can repost, rethread all you want, there is nothing out there  that says Verlander wanted to come here or would have come here,  It would be classless if the Twins were given permission to speak to him to see if he would accept a trade to leak a polite no thanks. As a 10/5 player he has earned that right.

[Mike Sixel]

There is always a reason the Twins can never get the best players in FA or trade, when does that change?

[drjim]

 

There is always a reason the Twins can never get the best players in FA or trade, when does that change?

 

Do you have a strategy to jump them from the 15-20 range of revenue?

[nicksaviking]

There is always a reason the Twins can never get the best players in FA or trade, when does that change?

When the metro's population and market share triples. So I guess getting Amazon 2 would be a great start.

 

But I still think the team can win; just need smarter organizational and development plans then they've had the last decade or so. This team can get the league's best players in trades and free agency if they get them before they are the league's best players.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Do you have a strategy to jump them from the 15-20 range of revenue?

Get the best players in FA?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Do you have a strategy to jump them from the 15-20 range of revenue?

 

They can't trade prospects for Sonny Gray and his salary?

[Mike Sixel]

 

When the metro's population and market share triples. So I guess getting Amazon 2 would be a great start.

But I still think the team can win; just need smarter organizational and development plans then they've had the last decade or so. This team can get the leagues best players in trades and free agency if they get them before they are the leagues best players.

 

I did mention trade, and yet, if you search this forum, there are lots of explanations for why the can never trade for great players either.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

 Players do not like to be traded.  That's why they bargained for it to be their choice.  There was no financial gain for Verlander and a very low probability of going deep into the playoffs.  I have no idea if Verlander would accept a trade to the Twins but I certainly would not take a hard stance on such an assumption with no validation, especially when the circumstances suggest he would have better options.  I certainly would not assume that the people running the organization just don't get it. 

 

I too think it would have been a decent trade.  However, I am certainly not going to assume the FO is incompetent because a deal did not get done.   I guess its fun to assume we know about running a baseball team than baseball executives.  I am pretty darn sure the position would not command salaries of multiple millions/year if there we so many people around capable of doing the job.

My bigger concern is that this trade deadline was a great opportunity to get starting pitching locked up for multiple years, if not Verlander then Gray or Quintana, but there wasn't much of a rumor about them having any interest in any of those guys. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

My bigger concern is that this trade deadline was a great opportunity to get starting pitching locked up for multiple years, if not Verlander then Gray or Quintana, but there wasn't much of a rumor about them having any interest in any of those guys. 

 

Gray and Quintana were too expensive?

[old nurse]

 

My bigger concern is that this trade deadline was a great opportunity to get starting pitching locked up for multiple years, if not Verlander then Gray or Quintana, but there wasn't much of a rumor about them having any interest in any of those guys. 

So rumor = fact and no rumor = no interest? The FO is pretty tight lipped. Look at the hirings and firings without notice nor rumors. Think what you want, but the inner workers are pretty cloaked. The only definitive is that they did not trade for Gray, Quintana or Verlander.  Nothing more, nothing less

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

There is always a reason the Twins can never get the best players in FA or trade, when does that change?

It doesn't, just as it doesn't change for lots of teams. The Twins aren't alone in that regard. Sure, you can occasionally convince a top tier FA to come to a non-premiere market but there are several top tier FAs who don't seem interested in ever entertaining the idea.

 

As for trade, it was widely circulated that Verlander was in no hurry to leave Detroit. When options like Houston are on the table, there's no reason for him to even consider Minnesota.

 

And who can blame the guy? His contract is guaranteed, his only concern is a legit shot at winning in the here and now because he's not going to pitch forever.

 

If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't even consider Minnesota if some of the best teams in baseball were interested in acquiring him.